GallowsKnight Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Well, if you want, you can say that Petyr and his father worked to rise House Baelish meteorically. His father, by befriending Hoster Tully and getting the fostering and Littlefinger by squeezing everything out of that situation. What I mean is, the Freys are looked down because they are "only" several hundred years old, while House Baelish was nothing a mere fifty years before the events of AGOT and look where it reached. I'd include his grandfather and possibly Great-grandfather. That family is almost a rags to riches story. Sellsword-Landless Knight-Petty Lord-Master of Coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'd include his grandfather and possibly Great-grandfather. That family is almost a rags to riches story. A sellsword hardly counts as "rags" in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 What about Varys, from eunuch mummer in Essos to a place on the Small Council? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A sellsword hardly counts as "rags" in my book. Not every sellsword has blingin' gold teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Compare this to the Ironborn society, where a person could be born the son or daughter of a thrall, work their way up in the mines, fishing etc. to where they have enough money to buy a ship, then trade until possibly getting enough money to become nobles e.g house Codd. Yet how many times have we seen that happen other than House Codd, which was quite a while ago in the last couple generations on the mainland we have at least three houses where a non-noble has become a lord - Clegane, Slynt and Baelish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Social mobility is difficult in Westeros but not impossible, especially in King's Landing. Having a set of unique skills and befriending the right people can get you very very high even if you come from the lowest of the low. Varys, Melisandre, Aurane Waters, Littlefinger, Bronn, Janos Slynt, Ramsay etc. are just a few examples. Kinda ironic considering that most of Jon Snow's arc is so much defined by him being a bastard and having zero options to make a name of himself other than to join the Night's Watch. Ned could have easily taken Jon to King's Landing. He might not let him stay in the Hand's tower (though I doubt anyone would mind) but he could have found him an apprenticeship of Jon's liking. I understand that given Jon's secret identity, Ned didn't want to risk to take him South but the fact is that Jon had plenty of other options to climb the social ladder than just to join the NW . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Social mobility is difficult in Westeros but not impossible, especially in King's Landing. Having a set of unique skills and befriending the right people can get you very very high even if you come from the lowest of the low. Varys, Melisandre, Aurane Waters, Littlefinger, Bronn, Janos Slynt, Ramsay etc. are just a few examples. Kinda ironic considering that most of Jon Snow's arc is so much defined by him being a bastard and having zero options to make a name of himself other than to join the Night's Watch. Ned could have easily taken Jon to King's Landing. He might not let him stay in the Hand's tower (though I doubt anyone would mind) but he could have found him an apprenticeship of Jon's liking. I understand that given Jon's secret identity, Ned didn't want to risk to take him South but the fact is that Jon had plenty of other options to climb the social ladder than just to join the NW . Hm... Did anyone say the NW was his only option? IIRC Ned wasn't even sure and someone mentioned he should live a little first... Ned could probably fund him in some adventures in Essos, he's a decent warrior, he could travel around like a hedge "knight", serve some friends of Ned etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yet how many times have we seen that happen other than House Codd, which was quite a while ago in the last couple generations on the mainland we have at least three houses where a non-noble has become a lord - Clegane, Slynt and Baelish Could be any number. How many houses do we have such information on in the Iron Islands ? There's only a handful houses described beyond the most cursory. Secondly, you are comparing all of Westeros vs. the Iron Islands now ? Am I to be surprised you find more instances of stuff ? How many houses total are there in the Westerlands, Crownlands and the Vale compared to the Iron Islands ? In the end, the stories of Clegane, Slynt and Baelish are just yet more examples of benevolence from those in higher positions, bestowed upon certain individuals from the lower classes. That isn't a sign of high social mobility, rather the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus_Invictus Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm not sure the rise of the Cleganes is really that much of social mobility. It isn't especially rare for commoners to get knighted for feats of great valor, Joffrey hands out so many knighthoods after Blackwater that his kingsguard spend hours knighting them all, and the fact that they received a keep in the process mostly just indicates Tytos' great generosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The Night's Watch is a sort of social leveller - if you're lowborn, you can rise high in the Watch on merit. If highborn, it doesn't matter because you're in the same ranks as every peasant when you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The Night's Watch is a sort of social leveller - if you're lowborn, you can rise high in the Watch on merit. If highborn, it doesn't matter because you're in the same ranks as every peasant when you start. In theory yes. But even there most officers are highborn due to the benefits of a martial education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Petyr Baelish counts. His grandfather was a sellsword who became a landed knight, and his father a knight who became a lord. Two generations is clearly not considered much in Westeros, considering what has been said about LF in the story.His rise is still probably the most dramatic, because he not only rises to great power from total obscurity, but also does so despite a ) having no notable soldierly prowess, and b ) virtually nobody who actually likes him. The Cleganes are a parallel example - Sandor and Gregor's grandfather was a commoner rewarded for saving their liege lord's life. The guy was master of hounds, so he was fairly well-off for a commoner, but House Clegane is known for the warlike abilities of their progeny, the Mountain and Hound; as landholders, they are hardly worth mentioning, socially they are abysmal, and none of the Highborn seem inclined to throw marriage offers at them. They are a weapon of the truly highborn, knights without deep roots. Bronn is someone I think deserves some credit for also setting realistic limits. Most sellswords just piss their gains away, but his goal seems to be to establish himself as a lord, bear some sons, and actually live on the gains he's made. He could have stayed loyal to Tyrion who helped him rise up to knighthood, but instead he took the better deal, knowing that choosing the losing side meant any gains he had from Turion could just as easily be erased. Davos is a great example, because on top of being lowborn, he was also on the wrong side of the law. Yet opportunity came to do something for the highborn, and he was rewarded. However, he shows some real smarts and actual loyalty, and it is quite refreshing to see him treated as a man of quality over the objections of the highborn chumps surrounding Stannis most of the time. It is even better in that despite all that, Davos is not risk averse. He appreciates the positions he's been given and is not personally ambitious or conniving, but he still find himself living dangerously because he has to - he contends with Selyse and Melisandre and the other lords, and even Stannis himself, and could lose it all at any moment, but his principles drive him to risk his life for what's important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 War likely offers the best opportunities for members of the Smallfolk to rise into the upper classes.We don't see much of the merchants and professional people of Westeros; but the likelihood is that they offer opportunities for both upward and downward social mobility (LF's tax collectors and harbourmasters are able small folk and younger sons of minor lords). We hear too of rich merchants marrying their daughters to the sons of lords.In the countryside, some farmers likely prosper, and gradually make their way to becoming minor gentry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Hm... Did anyone say the NW was his only option? IIRC Ned wasn't even sure and someone mentioned he should live a little first... Ned could probably fund him in some adventures in Essos, he's a decent warrior, he could travel around like a hedge "knight", serve some friends of Ned etc. Jon's whole AGoT arc is defined by this stigma of being a bastard. He himself does not think he has many other options than to join the NW but I will chalk it up to his rather naive and limited view of the world due to his youth and the fact that he's never been outside of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The Night's Watch is a sort of social leveller - if you're lowborn, you can rise high in the Watch on merit. If highborn, it doesn't matter because you're in the same ranks as every peasant when you start. I'm pretty sure if you look at the list of officers and commanders in the NW Qhorin is the only one who doesn't have a noble last name. (or a bastards) So in theory yes its a level playing field but in reality the nobles have the training and education that makes it damn near guaranteed that they're going to be promoted ahead of the peasants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Jon's whole AGoT arc is defined by this stigma of being a bastard. He himself does not think he has many other options than to join the NW but I will chalk it up to his rather naive and limited view of the world due to his youth and the fact that he's never been outside of the North. There is a stigma attached to bastardy. But being the bastard of a high lord, whose paternity is acknowledged by his father, still puts you in a far better position than the vast majority of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Colak Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Living in interesting times helps, you're less likely to see anyone rise higher in terms of station in times of peace. Not that it doesn't happen, but its less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor!!! Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Then there's always immigration to Essos where talent and skill seem to get people farther than in hereditary rule. Except for all those people who were born as slaves ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Living in interesting times helps, you're less likely to see anyone rise higher in terms of station in times of peace. Not that it doesn't happen, but its less likely. LOL. What a diplomatic way to describe an extremely gruesome and bloody war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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