Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower. . .The Three Ghosts

[Supremo]

^ i see

interesting. well yea, going on topic, the presence of these 3 knights in TOJ is what also made me believe in the R+L=J theory

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I totally think that they were married and that there is indeed a reason for the Targ polygamy president.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I totally think that they were married and that there is indeed a reason for the Targ polygamy president.

How many Targ Kings practiced polygamy? Aegon had two wives before he conquered Westeros and Maegor had multiple wives and fought multiple wars with the Faith who disagreed with him.

GRRM even states:

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

The Faith would never have recognized it as a legal wedding, the Family of the teenage Bride would never have recognized it as they had betrothed her to Robert.

From the Rogue Prince we see that Prince Daemon, who was the next male after Viserys at the time, had to ask the King for permission to annul his marriage as he wanted another wife and he had to wait till said wife as dead before marrying again.

There is nothing to suggest that Polygamy was legal at in 282.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Its not been officially made illegal as far as we are aware, I don't think Rhaegar asked anyone for permission, and I don't think they were married in the light of the seven.

We are shown an Old Gods wedding in ADWD where no officiator is required. You just rock up at a weirwood heart tree with some witnesses and say the words. All forms of wedding ceremony are recognised across westeros. otherwise 99% of the north would be being called Bastards by the south and vice versa.

If Rhaegar was as convinced of the prophesy as is indicated then I totally see him taking a second wife in-order to fullfil it after Elia is told no more babies. if the rebellion hadn't happened I think he was banking on the Starks having to accept the marriage or burden Lyanna with a "bastard" and a ruined reputation. Robert would not have been able to still marry her if the wedding was declared null and void by Aerys. And I don't think Rhaegar believed his father would agree to bow to pressure from the 7 to have the marriage dissolved. And I do think that if he had Rhaegar would have attempted to go through with the plan to simply remove Aerys from the IT. And when you are the King if you want two wives then, well. Dragons or no dragons who's gonna stop you. The faith have no military power at this time. he's banking on the whole of the North backing him up or accept Lyanna has no future prospects and her son is declared illegitimate. The only real issue was Robert having a hissy fit over loosing his betrothed to the Crown Prince. But I doubt Rhaegar really imagined his cousin would have a leg to stand on as a sole region. Dorne would stay strong for him so long as Elia was happy to also accept the second wife, and we have no idea if she would have been. People assume not but that is based upon our own modern views of polygamy. Elia knew that the precedent meant her own son would always come first. and she was unable to have any more children. Rhaegar was not the great love of her life that a modern day marriage is meant to be. It was an arranged marriage and they were merely fond of one another. The Tyrells would stand for Rhaegar too. Given that they are strong Targ supporters. So he'd have had 4 out of 7 regions for certain, with houses in each of the others who would likely still declare for him over Robert. When you honestly believe the fate of the world lies on you having three children those would seem acceptable odds.

BTW, just so you don't get told off, that info from TRP should be in spoiler tags. they are really easy to do just place the word spoiler in square brackets before the text, and then again but with a forward slash inside the brackets but in front of the word(no spaces) after it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Its not been officially made illegal as far as we are aware,

Has it ever been officially made legal? Outside of two Targ rulers, we don't see anyone else doing it. They could ignore the law because they had dragons, not because they changed the law.

It has always been illegal.

[stateofdissipation]

How many Targ Kings practiced polygamy? Aegon had two wives before he conquered Westeros and Maegor had multiple wives and fought multiple wars with the Faith who disagreed with him.

GRRM even states:

The Faith would never have recognized it as a legal wedding, the Family of the teenage Bride would never have recognized it as they had betrothed her to Robert.

From the Rogue Prince we see that Prince Daemon, who was the next male after Viserys at the time, had to ask the King for permission to annul his marriage as he wanted another wife and he had to wait till said wife as dead before marrying again.

There is nothing to suggest that Polygamy was legal at in 282.

umm

In the last several hundred years, the state has played a greater role in marriage. For instance, Massachusetts began requiring marriage licenses in 1639, and by the 19th-century marriage licenses were common in the United States. Until the 16th-century, Christian churches accepted the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s declarations. If two people claimed that they had exchanged marital vows—even without witnesses—the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married

"lawful marriage" applied to feudal times is an anachronism---it does not belong to that time. It would be the same as putting a globe and a microscope in Henry IV's court... It would be the same as claiming Columbus crossed the atlantic on the aircraft carriers Langley, Lexington, and Saratoga. Or having the Magna Carta signed in the Viking era.

There was no such thing as a "legal marriage" "legally" a "marriage" was whatever the religion said it was. Marriage was a matter of fact the fact was established by the religion until the 1500's...

Look at tyrion's marriage to tysha, they went to the septon and not to the king to have it annuled, Prince Daemon went to the king to get him to pressure the church to allow it... the king decided not to... it was the faith's policy he cited,

There is nothing to suggest that any religion in westeros permitted polygamy.

That being said, the family of the married teen would be bound to the decision of the faith, They could ask the church to annul the marriage or kill the spouse... but denying it is valid if the faith held it to be valid does not accomplish a thing...

Say Rhaegar found a septon to marry him, the marriage would be valid and Rhaegar would be guilty of the sin of polygamy...

Rhaegar's royal blood and married parents got him an early death at the ruby ford. Aerys' lived a little longer but ended just the same.

That being said.... KG equals king present must ignore that the KG present were absent from the protection off kings 1-3. It also ignores the fact that if R plus L equals J... Lyanna was only pregnant when Rhaegar left. So the KG were there guarding a royal fetus in case it happened to be a boy, and the king, the prince, and the kings first son happened to die. The first duty of the kings guard is to guard the 4th in line because it might be a boy?

[Ygrain]

Has it ever been officially made legal? Outside of two Targ rulers, we don't see anyone else doing it. They could ignore the law because they had dragons, not because they changed the law.

It has always been illegal.

Incest has always been illegal, as well, yet the Targs were able to practice is long after the dragons were gone. Polygamy was never really widespread in the first place, but as long as there is a valid precedent, it doesn't matter that we don't have many examples.

[mambru]

If the religion of the Seven is analogous to the medieval Catholic church (as it appears to be), it may resemble it in that each marriage by nobility that had the least grounds for doubt (like some degree of consangunity) required its own individual dispensation for it...which the church could take its own sweet time about granting. IIRC, even Willliam the Conqueror (a never-legitimized bastard, BTW) had to wait years for the church to allow him dispensation to marry, and make some pretty hefty donations.

It seems odd that the High Septon would grant carte blanche for every Targaryen without limit to marry polygamously forever, even if they weren't the actual monarch. Do we have any evidence that Targaryens other than the reigning king were allowed to take two wives?

[BearQueen87]

If the religion of the Seven is analogous to the medieval Catholic church (as it appears to be), it may resemble it in that each marriage by nobility that had the least grounds for doubt (like some degree of consangunity) required its own individual dispensation for it...which the church could take its own sweet time about granting. IIRC, even Willliam the Conqueror (a never-legitimized bastard, BTW) had to wait years for the church to allow him dispensation to marry, and make some pretty hefty donations.

It seems odd that the High Septon would grant carte blanche for every Targaryen without limit to marry polygamously forever, even if they weren't the actual monarch. Do we have any evidence that Targaryens other than the reigning king were allowed to take two wives?

I don't think it's that odd for the Faith. They want to stay ALIVE. Even without dragons, we've seen, even in the more recent times, that the Faith will basically do what the Crown commands. The High Sparrow is a bit of an anomaly.

[stateofdissipation]

Ok..say Jon has "proof" that he is the legitimate heir.

Jon takes his magic paper (just like his father did) and marches it up to king's landing... Too bad they sent Ned's head home, Jon's would be on a spike alone.

Viserys was the presumed heir. Nobody supported him. He died.

The lannisters have an army. Stannis has an army. Dany has an army. Jon has managed to get himself stabbed while at the head of a few hundred men.

The 7 kingdoms seems an unlikely Mr. Brownlow. for Jon's version of Oliver Twist. The 7 kingdoms seem more likely to kill him than to lovingly welcome him as their rightful ruler.

Jon Snow's parentage is a backstory...

On an interesting note the prophecy predates the Targ's arrival in Westeros. It predates the Targs adopting the faith of the seven. (Aegon I converted)

The prophecy Rhaegar was worried about said blood of the dragon... not blood of the dragon legitimized by the faith of the seven. Worrying about what the faith of the seven thinks about an ancient prophecy outside their religion is as out of place as readers thinking that there were marriage licenses in westeros.

on topic arthur dayne of starfall said all knights must bleed it is a sign of our devotion and he was likely bleeding when he after the showdown at ToJ. If r plus l equals j... J was born under the protection of the bleeding arthur dayne of starfelll

the smoke was from the sack of kings landing

the salt his mother's tears

Dragons are returning

it is hard to imagine a darker eye than death which has fallen on Jon...

Jon is the prince that was promised.... not the king of the seven kingdoms..

[mambru]

I don't think it's that odd for the Faith. They want to stay ALIVE. Even without dragons, we've seen, even in the more recent times, that the Faith will basically do what the Crown commands. The High Sparrow is a bit of an anomaly.

But the main objection to polygamy would have come from the Faith. I think the fact that the Targaryens stopped indulging in polygamy fairly early on shows that they DID take the Faith's opinion into ever more increasing account - especially as their dragons grew ever more weak and flaccid.

From the Rogue Prince we see that Prince Daemon, who was the next male after Viserys at the time, had to ask the King for permission to annul his marriage as he wanted another wife and he had to wait till said wife as dead before marrying again.

Wow. I haven't yet read The Rogue Prince, but this above seems to show clearly that a mere prince like Rhaegar could NOT contract a valid polygamous marriage without the approval of the king...ergo, either Aerys gave approval of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, or else they were NOT in fact married.

[BearQueen87]

But the main objection to polygamy would have come from the Faith. I think the fact that the Targaryens stopped indulging in polygamy fairly early on shows that they DID take the Faith's opinion into ever more increasing account - especially as their dragons grew ever more weak and flaccid.

Wow. I haven't yet read The Rogue Prince, but this above seems to show clearly that a mere prince like Rhaegar could NOT contract a valid polygamous marriage without the approval of the king...ergo, either Aerys gave approval of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, or else they were NOT in fact married.

He doesn't need Aerys's approval if he's planning on taking the throne and ousting Aerys. And he doesn't need to married in front of the High Septon either. We know there were wandering Septons, as well as godswood.

EDIT: also, different king, different prince. Viserys I didn't like Daemon, IIRC. There was more to it than just "no polygamy"

[mambru]

He doesn't need Aerys's approval if he's planning on taking the throne and ousting Aerys. And he doesn't need to married in front of the High Septon either. We know there were wandering Septons, as well as godswood.

It's about what Rhaegar's KG would believe. If Rhaegar isn't King at the time of his supposed marriage to Lyanna, and only Kings can authorize polygamous marriages, then Rhaegar's supposed polygamous marriage is not valid and Jon is not legitimate - and the KG would know it. And since Rhaegar died without ever having BEEN king, there was no way Rhaegar could retroactively authorize that marriage - so Jon is not legitimate, and the ToJ KG would know it.

[BearQueen87]

It's about what Rhaegar's KG would believe. If Rhaegar isn't King at the time of his supposed marriage to Lyanna, and only Kings can authorize polygamous marriages, then Rhaegar's supposed polygamous marriage is not valid and Jon is not legitimate - and the KG would know it. And since Rhaegar died without ever having BEEN king, there was no way Rhaegar could retroactively authorize that marriage - so Jon is not legitimate, and the ToJ KG would know it.

And the fact that the KG are at the ToJ, even though they know that Rhaegar is dead, Aerys is dead, and Prince Viserys has been taken to Dragonstone, speaks volumes.

MntLion has a done an excellent breakdown of the ToJ events http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109443-rlj-v-81/page-7#entry5779286

also, there is the idea that the KG and Rhaegar have agreed that Aerys's time is past and they need to take the throne for the Prince before the realm erupts.

There is a quote, I believe it's one or two pages back, where someone asks GRRM how Arthur Dayne, who by all accounts is sort of THE chivalric knight, stood by while the Queen was being raped and Aerys was burning men alive. GRRM's answer: "well...keeping reading." It's very possible that the KG recognized that Aerys was going down a bad bad bad path. And if Rhaegar convinces them to help him quietly take down his father, then they'd recognize Rhaegar as King.

[Lady Flandrensis]

The prophicy was about a prince, not a princess. And yes, Aegon would've been King after Rhaegar, but his death leaves Jon as the eldest living son and heir of Rhaegar.

Exactly. If all the Targaryens are being killed off, protecting Lyanna's baby is the most important thing to do

.

[Boarsbane]

And the fact that the KG are at the ToJ, even though they know that Rhaegar is dead, Aerys is dead, and Prince Viserys has been taken to Dragonstone, speaks volumes.

MntLion has a done an excellent breakdown of the ToJ events http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109443-rlj-v-81/page-7#entry5779286

also, there is the idea that the KG and Rhaegar have agreed that Aerys's time is past and they need to take the throne for the Prince before the realm erupts.

There is a quote, I believe it's one or two pages back, where someone asks GRRM how Arthur Dayne, who by all accounts is sort of THE chivalric knight, stood by while the Queen was being raped and Aerys was burning men alive. GRRM's answer: "well...keeping reading." It's very possible that the KG recognized that Aerys was going down a bad bad bad path. And if Rhaegar convinces them to help him quietly take down his father, then they'd recognize Rhaegar as King.

Not really, they failed their king, they could of just wanted to go down in a blaze of glory. Barristan was a better knight than any of them and look how much of a fight he put up when Rhaegar and Aerys were killed. He wasn't rushing off to protect Viserys, he knew it was over and Viserys wasn't worth fighting for.

Before the realm erupts? Aerys was burning people alive and 4 regions were in open rebellion. Dayne and Whent sat on their asses for the entire war and Hightower was with Aerys for most of it, they have odd notions of taking action.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Barristan could not go to Viserys as he was very badly injured, and needed to recovery. By the time he had done so he decided not to go to Viserys but to serve Robert, and accept him as the King. He later reflects that he made the wrong choice. Meaning he acknowledges this was oath breaking on his part as he swore his vows to the Targaryens.

The fact the other 3 KG chose to stay at the ToJ and the words they speak before the fight tells us they were keeping their vows.

[mambru]

Barristan could not go to Viserys as he was very badly injured, and needed to recovery. By the time he had done so he decided not to go to Viserys but to serve Robert, and accept him as the King. He later reflects that he made the wrong choice. Meaning he acknowledges this was oath breaking on his part as he swore his vows to the Targaryens.

The fact the other 3 KG chose to stay at the ToJ and the words they speak before the fight tells us they were keeping their vows.

Barristan decided that he'd made the wrong choice to accept Robert as his king fifteen years after the fact. And no one called Barristan's choice to vow to Robert either dishonorable or oathbreaking during those fifteen years. Most importantly, Ned - that stickler for honor and oathkeeping - thought Barristan a true honorable Kingsguard, and never gives the least hint in his thoughts that he thinks Barristan was an oathbreaker. Ned despises oathbreakers and would not think Barristan was honorable or trustworthy if he thought Barristan had broken his vows by swearing fealty to Robert.

So that means that the honorable keeping of vows are kind of a fuzzy category in which there is more than one way to honorably fulfil a vow. Without knowing more about the ToJ 3, we cannot say for certain HOW they chose to fulfil their vows. Yes, maybe they thought Jon was the king and so they were fulfilling their Vow of Protection. But IMO, it's also possible that they thought like Barristan - that the Targaryens had lost their throne and they had no Targaryen king anymore - and therefore they decided to lay down their lives following their Vow of Obedience - following the last orders of Rhaegar, the last man they recognized as authorized to command them, who told them to protect Lyanna from ALL comers.

And until we know more about the events leading to the ToJ and more about the character of the ToJ KG themselves, I don't think we can say for certain which path they took.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well one of those scenario's makes perfect sense, that they were protecting the baby whom they believed was now the rightful King, the other is just down right daft.

Ned thinks of Barristan as a great KG knight because HE supports Robert as King. If he supported the Targs as the monarchy still he'd think Barristan a low life oathbreaker, he thinks of Jamie that way because he dislikes the Lannisters, and he dislikes that Jamie sat in the IT. Thinking it typical Lannister behaviour. Jamie actually Killed the man he was sworn to defend, barristan chose to bend the knee after the man he was sworn to defend was dead. If Ned were to acknowledge his double standards regarding the two remaining members of Aerys's KG he'd have to acknowledge that each and every noble man, including himself, who rose against the Targaryen was an Oathbreaker too, as they all swear fealty to their King.

[Roxy Carmichael]

Aegon is still alive at this point, as is the King and the heir.

They are there because the Royal Prince ordered them to stay there, not because they felt the need to guard either the 3rd or 4th in line Monarch (depending on the sex of the baby).

Aerys didn't hate his son, it makes sense that he would send some of the Kingsguard to do serve him in this time of crisis.

This.

At the time Hightower showed up at the TOJ Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar were all still alive... and were for several weeks or months after. They had no way of knowing what sex Lyanna's baby would be, and Rhaegar likely expected a daughter. There really wasn't a good reason for all three of the KG to stick around the TOJ other than to follow orders.

Why didn't one of the KG escort Rhaegar back to King's Landing?

Jon wasn't born until right around the time Ned showed up. In the gap between the death of Aegon and his birth (assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married), Visaerys was the heir. Why didn't one or more of the KG seek him out for protection?

I think it's pretty likely that they were just following Rhaegar's orders. There really isn't another good way to explain their actions.