Arlan of Pennytree Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 So these are the three (or two of the three) most famous knights and KG in living menory. Is there any significance that these three are @ToJ or was it just for the readers benefit, popular names to relate to? Three knights, white and pure, their white cloaks and armor and Dawn, the Sword of the Morning. Purity personified. Then, at Eddards arrival all turns red and death becomes the mood. Their deaths and those of Ned's company, less Reed, and Lyana's blood and impending death. Prince's Pass, Kingsgrave and nightsong loom near. Even in these names much and more can be theorized when connected w/the events @ the ToJ. My brain is a bit scattered here, any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 If you subscibe to R+L=J (legitimate) then the three KG were at the ToJ because they were upholding their primary vow i.e. to protect the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 For me, it suggests that they recognised Rhaegar & his child to be as their true King/Kings. No other reason why they should have been at the TOJ. Hope we don't have to wait much longer to find the truth of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 If you subscibe to R+L=J (legitimate) then the three KG were at the ToJ because they were upholding their primary vow i.e. to protect the king. I'm aware of this, and promote this theory as well. I was speaking to the specefic choice of these 3 in particular. . . is there a meaning here, something not cut-n-dry from hte R+L=J or Jon Targ. theories, like their honor, even though Rhaegar dishonored Dayne wl Lyanna, yet still he gave his life for her and her babe (his King) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I'm aware of this, and promote this theory as well. I was speaking to the specefic choice of these 3 in particular. . . is there a meaning here, something not cut-n-dry from hte R+L=J or Jon Targ. theories. No idea. Ned says Dayne was the finest knight he had ever seen and Hightower was a stickler for the rules. I think that this adds more credence to the "Jon is legitimate" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 For me, it suggests that they recognised Rhaegar & his child to be as their true King/Kings. No other reason why they should have been at the TOJ. Hope we don't have to wait much longer to find the truth of it. Me too. But again we have purity v/s death and blood, plus Prince's Pass, Kingsgrave and nightsong loom near. I think all these mean something. I'd like to abandon the very basic R+L=J theories as answers, but explore the TOJ and its small history and is the historis of Prince's Pass, Kingsgrave and nightsong. Prince's Pass 'conquered dragons, so to speak, then used to conquer by Daeron I. Kingsgrave is a vassal of Dorne and I don't know what to think of Nightsong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 For me, it suggests that they recognised Rhaegar & his child to be as their true King/Kings. No other reason why they should have been at the TOJ. Hope we don't have to wait much longer to find the truth of it. How did they know that Lyanna would give birth to a son? And would Aegon not be the King after Rhaegar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 thelittledragonthatcould. They are questions that only GRRM can answer. Just the only reason I can see why the Commander of the Kingsguard & the other two would be at the TOJ. Something Rhaegar told them/showed them convinced them to forego their vows and recognize Lyanna & her possible child as the true heirs of the kingdom. That's just my thoughts. Arlan Pennytree. Could be that there closeness has something important behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 My opinion: Rhaegar knew something and told them about Jon's role against The Others. They then realized that protecting Jon/Lyanna was far more important than protecting Rhaegar or any other Targ. When Ned arrives, they get killed and Lyanna reveals the truth about their vows or Rhaegar's intentions on her death bed. Whether it's about Jon Targaryen being King or Jon Snow being the greatest hero ever doesn't really matter, though. They're there because they swore a vow, most likely to Rhaegar, and for that Ned respects them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 How did they know that Lyanna would give birth to a son? And would Aegon not be the King after Rhaegar? The prophicy was about a prince, not a princess. And yes, Aegon would've been King after Rhaegar, but his death leaves Jon as the eldest living son and heir of Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The Lord Commander is there because Aerys sent him to get Rhaegar to come back to KL because war had broken out (and Aerys is overly suspicious because his son is missing). There is some thought tossed around in the R+L =J thread that if Aerys never said, "and then you must return as well" then Rhaegar could give the LC a new command to stay and watch Lyanna with the other two. Whent and Dayne were there because they helped "abduct" Lyanna (WoIaF)--Dayne was also one of the best swordsmen in Westeros and a friend to Rhaegar besides. And if you believe and R+L = J and that Jon is the key player in the fight for the Dawn, then there's also Dayne, who wields Dawn, defending the future warrior for the dawn. Whent being there might also be a nod to the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna situation began at Harrenhal, the seat of the Whent family. When Ned arrives with his 6 companions, the KG know that Aerys is dead as is Rhaegar and his children. They know that the new heir to the throne is inside the tower. They swore a vow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rhaegar stark Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The Lord Commander is there because Aerys sent him to get Rhaegar to come back to KL because war had broken out (and Aerys is overly suspicious because his son is missing). There is some thought tossed around in the R+L =J thread that if Aerys never said, "and then you must return as well" then Rhaegar could give the LC a new command to stay and watch Lyanna with the other two. Whent and Dayne were there because they helped "abduct" Lyanna (WoIaF)--Dayne was also one of the best swordsmen in Westeros and a friend to Rhaegar besides. And if you believe and R+L = J and that Jon is the key player in the fight for the Dawn, then there's also Dayne, who wields Dawn, defending the future warrior for the dawn. Whent being there might also be a nod to the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna situation began at Harrenhal, the seat of the Whent family. When Ned arrives with his 6 companions, the KG know that Aerys is dead as is Rhaegar and his children. They know that the new heir to the throne is inside the tower. They swore a vow. you know it reminded me of Regulus Black giving command to Kreacher to come back i agree with everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The prophicy was about a prince, not a princess. And yes, Aegon would've been King after Rhaegar, but his death leaves Jon as the eldest living son and heir of Rhaegar. Aegon is still alive at this point, as is the King and the heir. They are there because the Royal Prince ordered them to stay there, not because they felt the need to guard either the 3rd or 4th in line Monarch (depending on the sex of the baby). Aerys didn't hate his son, it makes sense that he would send some of the Kingsguard to do serve him in this time of crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose0 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Aegon is still alive at this point, as is the King and the heir. They are there because the Royal Prince ordered them to stay there, not because they felt the need to guard either the 3rd or 4th in line Monarch (depending on the sex of the baby). Aerys didn't hate his son, it makes sense that he would send some of the Kingsguard to do serve him in this time of crisis.Aegon is dead by this point, but that point is mute. I guess Rheagar ordered them to stay there, however, I would imagine that they would have been inclined to return to the king as their duty dictated. Their prescense is very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 My theory is that Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent left KL to try to gather as many support as possible to depose Aerys without having a civil war. And the rest of the KG were aware of that, except Barristan and Jaime, being new, but they couldn't openly disobey Aerys's orders yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon The Black Dragon Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I wonder what vow the KG are talking about to Ned. Their vow as KG( to protect the king) or a vow they made Rhaegar before he left for war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I wonder what vow the KG are talking about to Ned. Their vow as KG( to protect the king) or a vow they made Rhaegar before he left for war. If they were plotting against Aerys, the vow to their King, Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 My theory is that Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent left KL to try to gather as many support as possible to depose Aerys without having a civil war. And the rest of the KG were aware of that, except Barristan and Jaime, being new, but they couldn't openly disobey Aerys's orders yet. That's possible. We know that Aerys was getting worse and that Rhaegar wanted to call a council meeting when he go back from putting down Robert's Rebellion. My only quibble is that I don't know if the LC would go through with it. From what we do know, scant as it is, the LC lived by those vows he swore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 That's possible. We know that Aerys was getting worse and that Rhaegar wanted to call a council meeting when he go back from putting down Robert's Rebellion. My only quibble is that I don't know if the LC would go through with it. From what we do know, scant as it is, the LC lived by those vows he swore. I agree but we have this: Q. Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?GRRM: Well... keep reading. To me, this suggests he was planning something and it wasn't on his plans to simply keep witnessing Aerys' going mad. Considering Rhaegar left with him and Whent, I guess Oswell was involved as well, and Hightower knew where to find the prince, he probably knew something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I agree but we have this: Q. Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?GRRM: Well... keep reading. To me, this suggests he was planning something and it wasn't on his plans to simply keep witnessing Aerys' going mad. Considering Rhaegar left with him and Whent, I guess Oswell was involved as well, and Hightower knew where to find the prince, he probably knew something. That's the first time I've read that from GRRM, so thanks for that. Hmm. Dayne and Whent I can believe, especially Dayne because of how he is presented and the fact that he and Rhaegar were very close; and I think a good chunk of readers know that Rhaegar was planning something about his father. If Hightower signs off on it, then yeah, I'd say the KG were planning a peaceful overthrow of Aerys for the good of the realm. Jamie might have been out of the loop not only because he's new but he's also Tywin's son. If Tywin knew that the KG were planning, he might try to weasel his way into power and favor. Tywin has very little reason to love Aerys, but every reason to want to take back power and turn the situation to this advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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