Heresy 126

[Toccs]

I don't think there is anything unique going on with regards to time in the cave… In both bran & arya's ADWD chapters, GRRM uses the same "moon technique" to let the reader know that these seemingly simultaneous events are actually occurring over the course of one or more month...

That same thread I mentioned earlier that was trying to figure out how long Bran had been in the cave, also came to the conclusion that Arya's chapters were further ahead at this point then everyone else as well.

[Eira Seren]

Once again, two is considerably more interesting. If two is correct then it is not a stretch at all to say they are used to create new WW's. I will argue to the death that the exact manner of transformation/binding/sacrifice/bonding/alteration or whatever, is utterly unimportant. What's important is that the threat comes from within, while appearing for three books as if it comes from the very definition of "without". Indeed, it is still the generally held opinion that the WW are a separate race, come down from their snowy home to wreak havoc upon Westeros. Ladies & gentleman, it's crimson cod time.

So why am I so convinced by this? Well the innumerable hints within the text, the fact that it's outright stated by someone any sane person would discount immediately, that sort of thing :D But seriously, the "other as self" is so blatantly in evidence here. The first WW must have been FM, possibly children, possibly willing adult hosts. I mean, that has to be why they use kids right? No "sense of self" to fight against? If so, it doesn't preclude adults agreeing to "become" willingly, does it? So, the big bad enemy has always been ourselves.

It also feeds directly into the theme of "doing what it takes to survive", as anyone who would become a WW or give their children to them, must have been desperate.

. . .

Indeed the objection out there in the forum to identifying Danaerys as Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised is that she fits the criteria too well and is therefore far too obvious.

But if Westeros is to be saved from Azor Ahai, rather than saved by Azor Ahai... then its nowhere near so "obvious".

So lets look at the saving. Is the significant trigger for things starting to wake up north of the Wall and for Craster to begin giving up his sons not Summerhall or the death of Lord Rickard [and Brandon] but the birth of Danaerys/Azor Ahai on Dragonstone.

The two of you have managed to nail down some strong possibilities, I've been turning this over and over but can't decide. My view of the Others has been tied up so long with the viewpoints of the main characters that I may have been thinking about them in ways that are problematic. I think that the within aspect may fit with certain characters, which is probably right where GRRM wants us.

Am thinking that Dany/dragons might be the bigger threat. Dragons were the one thing that allowed the Targaryens to finally take the north.

Ah but you see that's where I part company with TOJ because while I think that the Singers or their agents are creating the white walkers they are and always have been stealing human children as their changelings, not transforming themselves.

The jury's still out on this for me. They are doing something with ice that's different than what the singers do with songs, but everything they decide to touch might just frost up.

I also am interested in considering how the various parties opposed to dragons might fit together. I just this morning came upon an interesting thread, The Gods Eye Conspiracy, which is looking to the factions opposed to the dragons and seeks to link together House Hightower, House Whent and the greenseers. The OP has only addressed the first two so far, and I'm quite curious to see what he or she does to bring in the greenseers, since it's thus far only come in tangentially, with the role of Gods Eye in the events of the Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion.

A curious ripple in all this, though, is the role of the "woods witch" and Jenny of Oldstones in the tPtwP business. Many have speculated that she is the Ghost of High Heart and possibly a singer. Is her "dragon-breeding" recommendation (that is, how to create the PtwP) evidence of "factions" among the Children, or was this somehow part of a plan against the dragons?

Am always suspicious about the proximity of the Gods Eye and Harrenal. I haven't read it all, but find the suggestion pretty intriguing. The location of the two on the map are also fascinating. . . the Singers insisted on keeping a grove of weirwoods on the Isle of Faces, close to the center of southern Westeros when they went North of the Wall. It has a kind of sacred druidic air about it.

I'm going to suggest something weird here and bear with me.

1. It is Winter,yet we have a Summer King already being seated without a Winter King in play........Why i don't know

2. We have Benero's prophecy concerning Dany including a "Summer that will never end"

3. Who could usher in a Summer that's endless,what creatures would benefit from an endless Summer?

Just thought of this..

And who wouldn't benefit from an endless summer. . .

If he survives, is Jon the Winter King?

[Black Crow]

New to posting, but I've been here for years. First post to Heresy for sure, but I've been reading them awhile.

The thing that bothers me about all the prophecy featured in the text is that so little of it actually comes from the one place that the threat comes from.

All of the Azor Azai prophecy comes from Essos, which is unlikely to ever be affected by the Others in any meaningful way- so the fact they'd have a prophecy about it at all seems really strange to me to begin with.

We know far too little about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, but we know that Rhaegar was trying to bring it about, and that Maester Aemon had been trying to puzzle it out also- which likely means that it's Westerosi, or at least was common knowledge in Westeros at some point...

Welcome to Heresy, if you've been around for a while you'll know that none of us are completely agreed on a lot of this stuff, but there's no evidence in text that the Prince that Was Promised has anything to do with Westeros either because its only mentioned by Targaryens and by Mel, from which its generally reckoned in these here parts that its something identifying the returning Azor Ahai as a Targaryen.

As to the Eastern origins of the Azor Ahai prophecy, you're quite right. There's no reason why it should relate to the Others at all, the connection only exists [belatedly] in Mel's mind and an assumption that the "time of great darkness" was literal, as in the Long Night, rather than literal as in a time of great adversity and/or evil. Master Benero appears to believe that the threat which Azor Ahhai is come again to deal with does not lie at the edge of the world but in Valyria. Furthermore of course, if the Others are indeed Craster's sons, then they are but tools and not a threat in itself, hence the debate lately as to whose tools and why?

[Black Crow]

And who wouldn't benefit from an endless summer. . .

If he survives, is Jon the Winter King?

I would say that yes, Jon is the King of Winter and I have a strong suspicion that his stabbing was necessary to make him so, just as Bran had to be flung from the tower and Odin had to be hanged on Yggasdril.

As for an endless summer it is of course what the peasants pray for, but somehow Master Benero's vision doesn't quite beguile:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

[Eira Seren]

My gods.... It's the Beach Boys!

(sorry)

:cool4: Yes. I can see Roger the Shrubber in league with them. Who wouldn't want a shrubbery near the beach?

I read the first few posts in that thread, and was disappointed. The idea is great. The evidence is vague and lacking, so far. I expect some of the questions at the root of that alleged "conspiracy" will get filled in over the next 2 books. But we can't just fill in all the details ourselves in the meantime. (Granted, I speak from my initial impression after reading the OP's laying out of his groundwork. If you think it's worth rereading, then I might take another look. I just thought it lost a lot of steam very quickly...)

I've seen this question (#1 above) raised a few times recently. Now, the Winter King / Summer King theory... is not mine. I think Black Crow is the one who I've seen advocating for it... But to go anywhere with it, then putting the Summer season below ground does make a certain kind of sense. You just have to remember that, from that underground chair, he rules the underground realm, and not the "real world" of the living in Westeros. In other words, just as the ancient Greeks envisioned the Sun descending below the earth (ie., underground) at sunset, then traveling back across the world through Hades to repeat his celestial circuit the next day... or as they imagined Persephone spending 6 months of every year in the underworld, only to reemerge with her power in the spring... so Bran (as King of Summer) leaves the land of the living, and takes his place "in storage," below ground, in the realm of the dead.

EUROPEAN SKY-GOD and the WINTER KING / SUMMER KING Theory

. . .

1. Ned Stark - connected with "the Nud," priest-king of the Celtic god of the summer sky, generous and "superior wolf-lord"
2. Bael - connected with BEL, the darker aspect of the sky-god, whose reign begins at the end of the harvest (Samhain), and extends through winter
3. Gilly - connected with Anna, and particularly with Black Anna (another name for the Black Gilliflower apple is "Black Annie")

Really I have nothing to say, only :cheers: Another round, please!

There is so much here. The connections are amazing.

Now here's the problem i see with this and there's a lot i agree with in what you are saying because maybe unkown to you there is a strong indication that this is the relationship of Bran(Oak King) and Jon (Holly King) they both rule one half of the year/seasons and are adversaries. Bran may not know it but he's maybe being prepared to go against brother Jon ( the Holly King).The Holly and Oak King are the dual aspects of the male Earth deity, with one ruling the waxing year, the other ruling the waning year.There is usually a battle between them when the seasons turn.

My knowledge of the Summer King/Oak King maybe a bit different ( note i do this communal ritual battle every year) because he is always accompanied with the Winter King/Holly King.

Now Bran's vision of Jon makes sense and it makes even more sense why BR told him " Now you know why you must live because Winter is coming".

Bran with Summer and Jon with his white wolf, Ghost. This is great!

. . . .Then we have the Last Hero, which seems to be a specifically Northern variant on the same theme as the first two, but is framed not as a prophecy but as a story about the end of the Long Night/ Battle for the Dawn.

My thought has long been that this particular Battle for the Dawn will feature the Targaryen line extinguished completely to save the realm they never truly belonged to in the first place. They escaped the Doom through conquest of Westeros. I figure before the end, Jon and Dany will die fulfilling their destiny and bring the world back into the balance the Doom tried to bring it.

Hello, glad you're here!

Do you think a reason for the thematic tie-in of the Last Hero is some kind of attempt to stake a claim to the north? Am thinking of places like Tintagel on the coast of Cornwall; the gentleman who built the castle there claimed he was a descendant of King Arthur, because local legends put Arthur near the spot, and he wanted to get as many points as possible with the locals he'd be ruling (also, to show off his newly minted 'British' heritage to the rest of the Normans). Would someone -- one of the First Men (surely not as late as the Andals, but maybe?) make some kind of claim to this old legend and reframe it in terms of the battle that saved Westeros?

Also, wouldn't that just take the cake and turn it all if Dany and Jon both die?

[Black Crow]

I'd like to think that the Night's King has some importance to the story, but the thing that bothers me about that is that the Night's King story happened AFTER the War for the Dawn. The Wall and the Nightfort are already built, and manned by the Night's Watch, and a succession of 13 Lord Commanders has taken place by the time the Night's King is seduced. So if what we're seeing is the new 'Long Night', then I wonder how the Night's King even fits, since it wasn't a part of the struggle that our current story is a direct parallel of.

Ah, well this is something which some of us think falls into the things aint what they seem category.

Some of us have very strong doubts about this story or rather the story as its told. The Nights King being the 13th Lord Commander and ruling for 13 years seems a little too convenient and leaving doubts about the timelines aside it appears that he and his men were guarding the Black Gate rather than the Wall. We don't know [really] who the Wall was built by or why, and there is a suspicion among some of us that the Battle for the Dawn related to the overthrow of the Nights King rather than some mighty battle against the Others.

As always we're none of us agreed in whole or in part about some of this, but there is enough evidence out there to raise serious doubts about the accepted version of events

[Eira Seren]

I would say that yes, Jon is the King of Winter and I have a strong suspicion that his stabbing was necessary to make him so, just as Bran had to be flung from the tower and Odin had to be hanged on Yggasdril.

As for an endless summer it is of course what the peasants pray for, but somehow Master Benero's vision doesn't quite beguile:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

Yipes. Reborn how, exactly? That sounds oddly like the wights, or UnCat.

[Toccs]

It's the fire side, so reborn probably means that perpetual hellish existence that Berric Dondarrion was desparate to get out of.

[TheButcherCrow]

How about a total change of pace, what if we (some of us) are looking at it all wrong. BC, I think you've been in an around the area I'm about to dive right into.

Many of us are looking at the singers as having used extreme magic in either an offensive or defensive capacity against the FM and in so doing they have created (inadvertently) a serious issue.

We are so wrong.

This takes a bit of a leap but here we go:

• The Rise of Valyria, The FM war with the Singers, The Long Night and Azor Ahai all happen at roughly the same time, with it being in roughly the order I set out.
  
• The Valyrians blood magic wasn't just to control dragons, it made them. Blood sacrifice of slaves, a bit of magic and a wyrm, boom, dragon. They "woke the dragons from the stone"
  
• This was not good, not good at all.
  
• Something funny starts happening to the seasons.
  
• The FM and CotF sign the pact (,ore of a non aggression thing tbh) in order to try and deal with the growing chaos.
  
• The CotF propose a radical plan.
  
• "Something is wrong with the flow of the world" sayeth the children, "the connection to the other continent must be broken"
  
• Stop
  
• hammer time
  
• This naturally causes it own problems but in the short term it seems to have worked. The FM and CotF split almost entirely from each other and life continues along quite nicely
  
• That is until a winter comes, that never freakin ends
  
• Needless to say the FM are on the brink of total buggery
  
• enter stage left, the Last Hero
  
• Somehow he persuades the CotF to do some epic magic
  
• They bind his bloodline to the changing of the seasons
  
• One child sacrificed to bring the summer
  
• One child chosen to rule the winter
  
• "Chosen to rule the winter" is another way of saying "a Stark on The Wall"
  
• Ah yes
  
• The Wall
  
• This thing went up as a kind of "valve" to keep winter where it should be but still allow some to get out to create a semi-natural winter.
  
• So The Wall is up and the Starks man the Black Gate.
  
• Each turn of the seasons a Stark boy is "given to the trees" to bring back summer
  
• And each Winter a Stark must be in Winterfell to assure the line continues.
  
• Night's King
  
• Oh boy, you're going to love this.
  
• So NK was the Stark in Winterfell but after he sacrificed A DAUGHTER to the trees to bring summer
  
• He went a bit... funny.
  
• He decides to live out his days in isolation manning the Black Gate.
  
• Wouldn't you just know it, his daughter comes strolling out of the haunted forest one night
  
• Something is different about her eyes though...
  

:D

[addicted to snow]

That same thread I mentioned earlier that was trying to figure out how long Bran had been in the cave, also came to the conclusion that Arya's chapters were further ahead at this point then everyone else as well.

Great!!! then is sounds as though there is nothing supernatural going on with regards to time-passage then...

[addicted to snow]

Ah, well this is something which some of us think falls into the things aint what they seem category.

Some of us have very strong doubts about this story or rather the story as its told. The Nights King being the 13th Lord Commander and ruling for 13 years seems a little too convenient and leaving doubts about the timelines aside it appears that he and his men were guarding the Black Gate rather than the Wall. We don't know [really] who the Wall was built by or why, and there is a suspicion among some of us that the Battle for the Dawn related to the overthrow of the Nights King rather than some mighty battle against the Others.

As always we're none of us agreed in whole or in part about some of this, but there is enough evidence out there to raise serious doubts about the accepted version of events

Supposedly, the Night's King first saw his future wife from atop the wall… If this part of the story is accurate, then the Night's Watch was guarding more than a subterranean tunnel that spanned a few hundred feet only to reemerge… The story as told by Old Nan suggest that a large ice wall was present above the tunnel, running perpendicular to the tunnel…

An underground passage that transverses a few hundred yards is not so valuable as to require a guard detail… However, if said passage allow one to transverse a large defensive structure such as The Wall, then said passage is of value & could possibly warrant a guard detail...

[addicted to snow]

Yipes. Reborn how, exactly? That sounds oddly like the wights, or UnCat.

Good Question… We have seen at least four separate pathways that can result in characters being brought back to life - 're-born'...

1. Berrick / Cat

The Wights

Qyburn's Arts (Arts possibly shared by Roose)

MMD using sorceries born in Ashai to bring Khal Drogo's body back to life

We still don't know what Coldhand's story is

Considering the origin of this prophecy, GRRm probably wants his audience to conclude that these followers will be brought back via the 'Kiss of Fire'… However, we should probably consider the nature of fire visions & the general kind of images that Mel shares via her POV chapters… Did Benerro see a vision of a number of Dany followers being individually given the "Kiss of Fire"? or did he see a vision of numerous Dany Followers spontaneously rising from where they had been slain?

If the 2nd scenario is what Benerro saw, then it sounds like they are rising as Wights...

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Welcome to Heresy, if you've been around for a while you'll know that none of us are completely agreed on a lot of this stuff, but there's no evidence in text that the Prince that Was Promised has anything to do with Westeros either because its only mentioned by Targaryens and by Mel, from which its generally reckoned in these here parts that its something identifying the returning Azor Ahai as a Targaryen.

As to the Eastern origins of the Azor Ahai prophecy, you're quite right. There's no reason why it should relate to the Others at all, the connection only exists [belatedly] in Mel's mind and an assumption that the "time of great darkness" was literal, as in the Long Night, rather than literal as in a time of great adversity and/or evil. Master Benero appears to believe that the threat which Azor Ahhai is come again to deal with does not lie at the edge of the world but in Valyria. Furthermore of course, if the Others are indeed Craster's sons, then they are but tools and not a threat in itself, hence the debate lately as to whose tools and why?

I went back and looked at the text tonight after that initial post, wondering if I was correct about the PtwP prophecy's origin, and signs seem to point to no- it's Valyrian in origin. Thereby making all of the prophecy Eastern in origin, except for stuff from the Ghost of High Heart, and Maggy the Frog, and neither of them touch on salvation prophecy that we've seen. That part really makes such little sense to me. Why would a threat almost exclusively to the West seem to be only prophecized in the East? There has got to be more to it that we just don't know, including what the threat these prophecies are supposed to counteract even is. And two books is supposed to finish this. I just can't see it.

Mel is the queen of unreliable narrators. I have always gotten the feeling that if she finds Azor Azai, she's going to use him/her/tree/rock/small furry animal for her own ends if she's able. She's a zealot in every sense of the word, perhaps not a terrible person, but definitely is playing her own game.

Hello, glad you're here!

Do you think a reason for the thematic tie-in of the Last Hero is some kind of attempt to stake a claim to the north? Am thinking of places like Tintagel on the coast of Cornwall; the gentleman who built the castle there claimed he was a descendant of King Arthur, because local legends put Arthur near the spot, and he wanted to get as many points as possible with the locals he'd be ruling (also, to show off his newly minted 'British' heritage to the rest of the Normans). Would someone -- one of the First Men (surely not as late as the Andals, but maybe?) make some kind of claim to this old legend and reframe it in terms of the battle that saved Westeros?

Also, wouldn't that just take the cake and turn it all if Dany and Jon both die?

Thank you! Hello right back!

I think the odds of the people of the North knowing about all these Eastern prophecies at the time when the Last Hero is said to have existed are slim. But something is definitely fishy about such a great hero to the realm not even having had a name worth remembering when other age of heroes characters like Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder are remembered fondly and well even in modern Westeros. Perhaps it was a retroactive claim on the legend, but I'd guess not. Old Nan's stories seem to have a kernel of truth at the least. I'd wager that there was a last hero, but to Old Nan- it was probably an Eddard, Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, Robb, Arya, Sansa, Rickard Stark or Jon Snow, depending on who was listening to her tell it.

And yes, it'd be quite the departure from every other fantasy story I've ever read if both Jon and Dany died and the Targaryen lineage were destroyed to save the realm they chose to conquer to save themselves at one point. I really like the symetry of it. Conquer and set yourselves above the Westerosi, then eventually be forced to sacrifice your family to the last member to save it. It's always been what I want most to see, even though I like Jon a great deal, and Dany well enough (when she's not sexually obsessing over sellswords for two books and embroiled in terrible character regression).

Ah, well this is something which some of us think falls into the things aint what they seem category.

Some of us have very strong doubts about this story or rather the story as its told. The Nights King being the 13th Lord Commander and ruling for 13 years seems a little too convenient and leaving doubts about the timelines aside it appears that he and his men were guarding the Black Gate rather than the Wall. We don't know [really] who the Wall was built by or why, and there is a suspicion among some of us that the Battle for the Dawn related to the overthrow of the Nights King rather than some mighty battle against the Others.

As always we're none of us agreed in whole or in part about some of this, but there is enough evidence out there to raise serious doubts about the accepted version of events

It's so difficult to know what's truthful when it comes to those old tales of the wall and it's raising. It's certainly said many times that Bran the Builder raised it, but it's less than certain those age of heroes legends even existed. I mentioned in a follow up post- the song Iron Lances tells the tale of the Watch winning the Battle for the Dawn, yet according to other things in the text wouldn't even exist until the wall was built. It's definitely either an oversight by GRRM, or nobody really remembers what the hell happened, which I think is likely what GRRM intends. If you look at your version of events- that the Battle for the Dawn was fought against the Night's King, there would at least have been brothers of the Night's Watch to ride against him. It may be a point in evidence to your theory. That song has always stuck out to me to be an oddity, and it's made at least three appearances in the books.

[Black Crow]

I think the odds of the people of the North knowing about all these Eastern prophecies at the time when the Last Hero is said to have existed are slim. But something is definitely fishy about such a great hero to the realm not even having had a name worth remembering when other age of heroes characters like Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder are remembered fondly and well even in modern Westeros. Perhaps it was a retroactive claim on the legend, but I'd guess not. Old Nan's stories seem to have a kernel of truth at the least. I'd wager that there was a last hero, but to Old Nan- it was probably an Eddard, Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, Robb, Arya, Sansa, Rickard Stark or Jon Snow, depending on who was listening to her tell it.

In considering this its always worth bearing in mind the title he's known by; he's not the Kingslayer, the Burner or the Hungry Wolf or any of the other myriad nicknames applied to other notables for one reason or another.

He is the last Hero, quite literally the last one remaining out of the 13 heroes who set out to find the children of the forest and we can perhaps conclude that as his name is unknown, in the end he didn't come back either.

And if you start to wonder if there might be a connection between the number thirteen and the man with no name in another legend you may be starting to think like a heretic.

[Black Crow]

Supposedly, the Night's King first saw his future wife from atop the wall… If this part of the story is accurate, then the Night's Watch was guarding more than a subterranean tunnel that spanned a few hundred feet only to reemerge… The story as told by Old Nan suggest that a large ice wall was present above the tunnel, running perpendicular to the tunnel…

An underground passage that transverses a few hundred yards is not so valuable as to require a guard detail… However, if said passage allow one to transverse a large defensive structure such as The Wall, then said passage is of value & could possibly warrant a guard detail...

Perfectly true, but on the other hand why do we know so much detail about this "8,000" year-old story when we know nothing about the Battle for the Dawn? Things get changed, forgotten, twisted and foggy over a fraction of the ages blithely quoted by the story-tellers. Did he really see her from atop the Wall or is that an assumption predicated in the belief that if he was at the Nightfort and therefore must have done. I agree that the Black Gate "as old as the Wall" did go under the Wall rather than randomly traversed a bit of open countryside, but whether that Wall was built by men to defend the realms of men is a different matter entirely.

[Hrafntýr]

I'd like to think that the Night's King has some importance to the story, but the thing that bothers me about that is that the Night's King story happened AFTER the War for the Dawn. The Wall and the Nightfort are already built, and manned by the Night's Watch, and a succession of 13 Lord Commanders has taken place by the time the Night's King is seduced. So if what we're seeing is the new 'Long Night', then I wonder how the Night's King even fits, since it wasn't a part of the struggle that our current story is a direct parallel of.

Now, I keep in mind that Old Nan isn't a reliable story-teller. We have been told that the Night's King name, along with his men has been stricken from history based on his black deeds, yet Old Nan goes for the shock factor of making him Brandon Stark due to her audience. But then, with as many Brandon Starks as there seem to be, Brandon Stark may be one of the best guesses to any question you'd get on trivia night in the longhall on a cold Northern winter night. All hail Brandon Stark, 7,212th of his name, King of Winter, the North, and the First Men! Not to exclusively pick on Old Nan- there's a song that has been featured several times "Iron Lances" (IIRC) seems to tell of the Night's Watch riding out and defeating the Others and ending the Long Night, when what we've seen in the text, they were founded when the wall was built. Misinformation is built into the text by design.

What I've always thought was the important takeaway from the Night's King story was- is that the Others were still around after the end of the Long Night, and that they weren't simply just hanging out in the Land of Always Winter and lying in wait for some far off time when they'd rise again. They were still there in the early days of the Wall, presumably the Night's Watch was still doing battle with them, and the Night's King was born from some sort of enchantment or other-worldly seduction. They were driven back, not defeated, and that story illustrates it. Every other story or song we hear seem to indicate that the Others were defeated, and the wall went up against further incursions, but the Night's King story runs contrary to that notion- they were still making mischief and were still a very real threat.

What I was aluding to in my post about Dany and the Azor Azai prophecy is that a sword is a terrible metaphor for dragon. I don't disagree that prophecies are meant to be malleable, and that metaphor can explain much, but this metaphor doesn't really fit. There's so much detail specifically about Lightbringer in the AA legend that it seems really difficult to reconcile that as a dragon. It even goes into detail about how Lightbringer was unsuccessfully attempted several times, but kept breaking, until it was tempered in Nissa-Nissa's heart.

Dany hatching the dragons doesn't work for me as Lightbringer in metaphor because she didn't fail in hatching anything. I suppose an argument could be made that the Targaryens did fail, and because Dany got it right doesn't exclude her from being AA, but I just don't think the prophecy fits. Dany didn't willingly give up the man she loved for her dragons. She gave her son for Drogo's life, then Drogo's body and Mirri Maz Dur for her dragons. AA plunged Lightbringer through Nissa-Nissa's heart in anguish over his failures to forge Lightbringer. Maybe not the most willing of sacrifices, and we're not certain that it HAS to be the person or thing you love most in the world, but we do know that in AA's case, it was, and that's where Dany doesn't line up to me. She'd already lost those people on other choices.

I'm one of those to whom Black Crow alludes when he says that some of us think that there are enough wrinkles in the story as told to raise some doubts as to whether it hasn't been subject to serious revision or simply been misremembered. As he notes, there's the issue of "thirteen": it's a bit odd that we've got the doubling of thirteen years with thirteen Lord Commanders. I'd add to this that this "thirteenth" aligns rather too neatly with the 12 companions of the Last Hero, which is one of the reasons I'm inclined to identify the Last Hero with Night's King. Then there's that song, "The Night that Ended," that figures an already-formed Night's Watch riding out for the Battle for the Dawn.

I know there's that question of the Wall in the story, as ATS says:

Supposedly, the Night's King first saw his future wife from atop the wall… If this part of the story is accurate, then the Night's Watch was guarding more than a subterranean tunnel that spanned a few hundred feet only to reemerge… The story as told by Old Nan suggest that a large ice wall was present above the tunnel, running perpendicular to the tunnel…

An underground passage that transverses a few hundred yards is not so valuable as to require a guard detail… However, if said passage allow one to transverse a large defensive structure such as The Wall, then said passage is of value & could possibly warrant a guard detail...

Personally, though, I think that the "wall" from which Night's King glimpses the White Lady is one of the walls of the Nightfort, or possibly Winterfell. It would help explain the line from the NW oath: "I am the watcher on the walls," where we would expect to see "Wall."

I don't have a coherent mega-theory, though, that explains the relationship between the Children, the Last Hero/Night's King, the WWs, Night and Winter. I do, though, think winter isn't bad. I just think that "Always Winter" is just as problematic as "Always Summer." I also think that there's a parallel between NK/White Lady and AA/Nissa Nissa. I don't think that Nissa Nissa is just his "beloved wife." I think she's likely a female "fire Other" just as the White Lady is a female "ice Other." And whereas AA got control over fire by killing his female Other, NK attempted a different relationship by procreating with his female Other, but Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell put the kibosh on whatever it was that he would have accomplished.

Also, regarding your comments about Dany, AA and Lightbringer, Bog Devil: I don't disagree with what you say. I wonder if the Grey King legend with its reference to Nagga's "living fire" might not be a key to thinking about the forging of Lightbringer. Perhaps "it" (whatever it is) will be tempered in the living fire of one of Dany's dragons?

You're right - he/she's added a good bit since I read through. I still don't think he took the Walgrave pieces to their astounding conclusion. (My last post included a link to a post with links... which may not have been the most helpful pointer. Here is one of my more developed posts on Walgrave: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57647-southron-ambitions-who-is-maester-warlyss-father/page-11#entry5240681 )

I really like your speculations about Walgrave being a skinchanger! That's interesting, it would make sense that the guy who knows more about ravens than anyone might have rediscovered their "original" mode of communication. And I really like your breakdown of his name into its possible meanings! It is interesting, though, that the white ravens of the citadel are very explicitly NOT albinos, which calls into question with whom Walgrave is connected or opposed.

How about a total change of pace, what if we (some of us) are looking at it all wrong. BC, I think you've been in an around the area I'm about to dive right into.

Many of us are looking at the singers as having used extreme magic in either an offensive or defensive capacity against the FM and in so doing they have created (inadvertently) a serious issue.

We are so wrong.

This takes a bit of a leap but here we go:

• The Rise of Valyria, The FM war with the Singers, The Long Night and Azor Ahai all happen at roughly the same time, with it being in roughly the order I set out.

The Valyrians blood magic wasn't just to control dragons, it made them. Blood sacrifice of slaves, a bit of magic and a wyrm, boom, dragon. They "woke the dragons from the stone"

This was not good, not good at all.

Something funny starts happening to the seasons.

The FM and CotF sign the pact (,ore of a non aggression thing tbh) in order to try and deal with the growing chaos.

The CotF propose a radical plan.

"Something is wrong with the flow of the world" sayeth the children, "the connection to the other continent must be broken"

Stop

hammer time

This naturally causes it own problems but in the short term it seems to have worked. The FM and CotF split almost entirely from each other and life continues along quite nicely

That is until a winter comes, that never freakin ends

Needless to say the FM are on the brink of total buggery

enter stage left, the Last Hero

Somehow he persuades the CotF to do some epic magic

They bind his bloodline to the changing of the seasons

One child sacrificed to bring the summer

One child chosen to rule the winter

"Chosen to rule the winter" is another way of saying "a Stark on The Wall"

Ah yes

The Wall

This thing went up as a kind of "valve" to keep winter where it should be but still allow some to get out to create a semi-natural winter.

So The Wall is up and the Starks man the Black Gate.

Each turn of the seasons a Stark boy is "given to the trees" to bring back summer

And each Winter a Stark must be in Winterfell to assure the line continues.

Night's King

Oh boy, you're going to love this.

So NK was the Stark in Winterfell but after he sacrificed A DAUGHTER to the trees to bring summer

He went a bit... funny.

He decides to live out his days in isolation manning the Black Gate.

Wouldn't you just know it, his daughter comes strolling out of the haunted forest one night

Something is different about her eyes though...

:D

Wow, TBC, this is grand! I'm not sure about the total package, I'll have to think more about it, but there are a number of points with which I completely agree. For example: the Valyrians made dragons. Check. That it wasn't good. Check. Something funny starts to happen with the seasons. Check. The Hammer as an attempt to set things aright. Quite plausible. That this is somehow linked to the emergence of Long Night/Winter. Also plausible. Basically, this suggests that Westeros became the source of Ice/Winter and Essos became the source of Fire/Summer as a consequence of the Hammer. Is this what you meant to suggest?

Not sure about the child sacrifice bit.

The Wall as season-regulating valve. Definitely plausible.

But the sacrifice of a daughter...do say more! Are you suggesting that this sacrificed daughter is the White Lady/Night? That the terrible crime that the Stark on the Wall/NK committed was incest with his sacrificed daughter?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Though Leaf tells Meera (in the Common Tongue!):

"I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

I don't think that glamour is at all necessary, really. People will see what they expect to see: a dwarf, a child, a little old woman, etc.

But, say, hypothetically speaking, that Jenny's woods witch was a singer.

1. What's she doing advising the mating of dragons?

2. Did she "gorge on grief" at Summerhall because her plans had failed? Because they had succeeded, but at great cost (the death of Jenny, perhaps?)?

Well I think that's evidence that Singers were in fact walking amongst humans, and as Urrax pointed out, we don't have any reports of Singer sightings in recent history, so I do think a glamour of some type is likely involved. In fact, Luwin seemed to think they were all long dead if they ever existed at all.

[Ygritte]

I'm one of those to whom Black Crow alludes when he says that some of us think that there are enough wrinkles in the story as told to raise some doubts as to whether it hasn't been subject to serious revision or simply been misremembered. As he notes, there's the issue of "thirteen": it's a bit odd that we've got the doubling of thirteen years with thirteen Lord Commanders. I'd add to this that this "thirteenth" aligns rather too neatly with the 12 companions of the Last Hero, which is one of the reasons I'm inclined to identify the Last Hero with Night's King. Then there's that song, "The Night that Ended," that figures an already-formed Night's Watch riding out for the Battle for the Dawn.

I know there's that question of the Wall in the story, as ATS says:

Personally, though, I think that the "wall" from which Night's King glimpses the White Lady is one of the walls of the Nightfort, or possibly Winterfell. It would help explain the line from the NW oath: "I am the watcher on the walls," where we would expect to see "Wall."

I don't have a coherent mega-theory, though, that explains the relationship between the Children, the Last Hero/Night's King, the WWs, Night and Winter. I do, though, think winter isn't bad. I just think that "Always Winter" is just as problematic as "Always Summer." I also think that there's a parallel between NK/White Lady and AA/Nissa Nissa. I don't think that Nissa Nissa is just his "beloved wife." I think she's likely a female "fire Other" just as the White Lady is a female "ice Other." And whereas AA got control over fire by killing his female Other, NK attempted a different relationship by procreating with his female Other, but Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell put the kibosh on whatever it was that he would have accomplished.

Also, regarding your comments about Dany, AA and Lightbringer, Bog Devil: I don't disagree with what you say. I wonder if the Grey King legend with its reference to Nagga's "living fire" might not be a key to thinking about the forging of Lightbringer. Perhaps "it" (whatever it is) will be tempered in the living fire of one of Dany's dragons?

I really like your speculations about Walgrave being a skinchanger! That's interesting, it would make sense that the guy who knows more about ravens than anyone might have rediscovered their "original" mode of communication. And I really like your breakdown of his name into its possible meanings! It is interesting, though, that the white ravens of the citadel are very explicitly NOT albinos, which calls into question with whom Walgrave is connected or opposed.

Wow, TBC, this is grand! I'm not sure about the total package, I'll have to think more about it, but there are a number of points with which I completely agree. For example: the Valyrians made dragons. Check. That it wasn't good. Check. Something funny starts to happen with the seasons. Check. The Hammer as an attempt to set things aright. Quite plausible. That this is somehow linked to the emergence of Long Night/Winter. Also plausible. Basically, this suggests that Westeros became the source of Ice/Winter and Essos became the source of Fire/Summer as a consequence of the Hammer. Is this what you meant to suggest?

I also think it's possible that it's the other way around. Building the Wall made dragons (or made them possible), by taking too much Ice magic out of the general "flow" of things so Fire became too predominant.

I take all dates in the ancient history as very, very fuzzy. ;)

[Morrigan's Raven]

Now here's the problem i see with this and there's a lot i agree with in what you are saying because maybe unkown to you there is a strong indication that this is the relationship of Bran(Oak King) and Jon (Holly King) they both rule one half of the year/seasons and are adversaries. Bran may not know it but he's maybe being prepared to go against brother Jon ( the Holly King).The Holly and Oak King are the dual aspects of the male Earth deity, with one ruling the waxing year, the other ruling the waning year.There is usually a battle between them when the seasons turn.

My knowledge of the Summer King/Oak King maybe a bit different ( note i do this communal ritual battle every year) because he is always accompanied with the Winter King/Holly King.

Now Bran's vision of Jon makes sense and it makes even more sense why BR told him " Now you know why you must live because Winter is coming".

[Morrigan's Raven]

@Wolfmaid - I agree, and as a practicing Pagan, I find it interesting to need to check my real-life biases, LOL!