Heresy 126

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

I think you answered your question what was in Dondarrion went into Cat,he was the one that basically did the "infecting" so to speak.It is implied the ice wights can do the same thing.

Think about what Old Nan said about the streangth of the Wall in relation to the men who guard it,so it is more than likely that the Wall has been breached.Again if you look at Mel's quote above of what she saw and felt through the fires and take into consideration that SHE DOES NOT FEEL COLD then you can see the pattern surrounding Jon's death.They are not far.The Cold that comes with the Wights can be felt over a much larger distance( it is what raises the dead )than what the wws emit because (they are creatures of winter)

No that is incorrect is about 12 quotes that dismiss this so i will just post 3

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold."

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights

that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's

what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they

won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!" (Wait what? who is Grenn talking about?)

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were

dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands

around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur.The

dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true ... but Grenn

was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he

thought. We don't know anything, really.

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought. Yet he must have dozed.......... Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold? (AGOT,Jon)

First, thanks for providing quotes about the cold being attached to the wights as well as the Others. I'd forgotten that, and I edited my original post to reflect it.

I understand that much is made about Melisandre not feeling the cold, but I'm having a hard time reconciling that having anything to do with the Others having breached the Wall at the point where Jon is being stabbed and he feels the cold. The text you've provided is Mel talking about the future attack on the Wall, but that's hardly a good foretelling. Jon and every other person there knows the Others will come for the Wall eventually. Granted, we don't know that the Others AREN'T attacking right at that precise moment, but we don't know that they ARE either. I lean towards the idea that the Wall couldn't possibly be breached without being noticed by the people there or described in the text. If there are Others on the opposite side of the Wall at that precise moment, it is my understanding the Walls' warding would prevent their magic from reaching the other side. All the text states is that Jon felt the cold rather than the 4th knife. Which is also easily explained by passing out from loss of blood.

I'm just of the opinion that it's a pretty big logical leap from "He never felt the fourth knife, he only felt the cold." to the Wall is breached, and the Others are making Jon feel cold.

It's not impossible, or even improbable in the future, but right at that precise moment, there's not much support for the idea there's anything more to the cold than what we see, unless it was intended to show Jon's wights in the Ice Cells had awoken.

[Eira Seren]

I bet this has come up before, but I ran across the word Draugr and found it to be an interesting connection to the wights

[wolfmaid7]

First, thanks for providing quotes about the cold being attached to the wights as well as the Others. I'd forgotten that, and I edited my original post to reflect it.

I understand that much is made about Melisandre not feeling the cold, but I'm having a hard time reconciling that having anything to do with the Others having breached the Wall at the point where Jon is being stabbed and he feels the cold. The text you've provided is Mel talking about the future attack on the Wall, but that's hardly a good foretelling. Jon and every other person there knows the Others will come for the Wall eventually. Granted, we don't know that the Others AREN'T attacking right at that precise moment, but we don't know that they ARE either. I lean towards the idea that the Wall couldn't possibly be breached without being noticed by the people there or described in the text. If there are Others on the opposite side of the Wall at that precise moment, it is my understanding the Walls' warding would prevent their magic from reaching the other side. All the text states is that Jon felt the cold rather than the 4th knife. Which is also easily explained by passing out from loss of blood.

I'm just of the opinion that it's a pretty big logical leap from "He never felt the fourth knife, he only felt the cold." to the Wall is breached, and the Others are making Jon feel cold.

It's not impossible, or even improbable in the future, but right at that precise moment, there's not much support for the idea there's anything more to the cold than what we see, unless it was intended to show Jon's wights in the Ice Cells had awoken.

You misunderstand me I didn't say they were attacking then and there. At no point did I say that, I did say "they were on their way".

I have a different theory than most here concerning the Wights and the WWs.So when I say the Wall is probably breached it has nothing to do with wws coming.

Thus it is consistent with what Mel warned Jon about, which has nothing to do with an attack on the Wall.

[Phillip Frye]

Which one? The Spartan reformer or the Greek mythological King of Edoni and in what context? Either way I don't recall them coming up.

The Spartan. He was a mythic king of Sparta who tore down the city walls (Sparta was the only Greek city state without walls). When questioned about the lack of walls, he pointed to the men of Sparta and proclaimed that they were its walls.

There seems to be some symmetry in that if the men of the Night's Watch fail to remain true, the physical Wall is going to come down.

[Phillip Frye]

I bet this has come up before, but I ran across the word Draugr and found it to be an interesting connection to the wights

This has come up before, but the only thing that I remember was the discussion about sealing up the door into which they entered the dwelling to keep them from returning.

[Phillip Frye]

Wait...I also am interested in considering how the various parties opposed to dragons might fit together. I just this morning came upon an interesting thread, The Gods Eye Conspiracy, which is looking to the factions opposed to the dragons and seeks to link together House Hightower, House Whent and the greenseers. The OP has only addressed the first two so far, and I'm quite curious to see what he or she does to bring in the greenseers, since it's thus far only come in tangentially, with the role of Gods Eye in the events of the Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion.

I looked at that thread. My favorite part was this exchange:

Is there a lot of evidence? I'm rather new here, so I'd appreciate anything you could throw my way about Jon's legitimacy.

As far as I know, people believe that he's legitimate because it would be so uncharacteristic of the KG to protect an illegitimate child with no claim to the throne. This doesn't strike me as inconsistent with anything I've said. Is there more?

Yes, lots. :)

I guess the best way to learn is to ask questions in the pinned R+L=J threads.

[Phillip Frye]

I'm a little late to the game, but I don't think that I can agree with Black Crow's theory that the birth of Daenerys "Azor Ahai" Stormborn Targaryen was the trigger for Craster's little game of Picov Andropov to begin. I think that Craster had been leaving the babes in the woods for much longer. Otherwise, he would have had a house full of adult size Craster-spawn running about by the time that she was born.

Now, maybe the birth of Daenerys caused the frequency of the visits by the brothers to begin to increase . . .

[wolfmaid7]

The Spartan. He was a mythic king of Sparta who tore down the city walls (Sparta was the only Greek city state without walls). When questioned about the lack of walls, he pointed to the men of Sparta and proclaimed that they were its walls.

There seems to be some symmetry in that if the men of the Night's Watch fail to remain true, the physical Wall is going to come down.

I didn't know him under that historical conext i thought he was a member of house Agiad that held part Kingship with house Erypondid(i'm sure i butchered that spelling) but that quote by his is a nice parallel indeed.I really believe the Wall is at its strongest when the NW are unified and with the current event the magic of the Wall has been diminished.

[Black Crow]

I'm a little late to the game, but I don't think that I can agree with Black Crow's theory that the birth of Daenerys "Azor Ahai" Stormborn Targaryen was the trigger for Craster's little game of Picov Andropov to begin. I think that Craster had been leaving the babes in the woods for much longer. Otherwise, he would have had a house full of adult size Craster-spawn running about by the time that she was born.

Now, maybe the birth of Daenerys caused the frequency of the visits by the brothers to begin to increase . . .

Its a fair point. Conversely I think 15 [?] years before the action starts is too long for Gilly's statement about them starting to come more often. Mind you the increase in frequency could well be consistent with the arrival of the direwolves and looking at both as linked might reflect an increasing sense of urgency.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

The Spartan. He was a mythic king of Sparta who tore down the city walls (Sparta was the only Greek city state without walls). When questioned about the lack of walls, he pointed to the men of Sparta and proclaimed that they were its walls.

There seems to be some symmetry in that if the men of the Night's Watch fail to remain true, the physical Wall is going to come down.

Old Nan alludes to it strongly several times. It's like a standard disclaimer if any of her beyond the Wall tales scared the children- Nothing there could harm them "As long as the wall stayed strong and the men of the watch stayed true."

True men and a strong Wall are always tied together with her.

[Black Crow]

The Spartan. He was a mythic king of Sparta who tore down the city walls (Sparta was the only Greek city state without walls). When questioned about the lack of walls, he pointed to the men of Sparta and proclaimed that they were its walls.

There seems to be some symmetry in that if the men of the Night's Watch fail to remain true, the physical Wall is going to come down.

It is also consistent with the heretical theory that the Wall is not a defensive structure but a demarcation line between the realms of men and the Otherlands, raised by the magic of the other lot rather than by men.

In other words its not the physical Wall which is stopping anybody [or anything] from passing, but the Nights Watch itself; the Nights Watch which sealed the Black Gate and spread themselves along [and inside] the Wall. They are the ward and that's the significance of the sentinels, not entombed as a punishment for desertion but as a sacrifice.

[Hrafntýr]

I bet this has come up before, but I ran across the word Draugr and found it to be an interesting connection to the wights

I think draugar have come up before, since they are so similar to the wights, in so many ways. But I think the conversation didn't take us very far, since there wasn't much in their mythology to really shed much light on what's going on with the wights/WWs--it's basically like, "Yup, they sure seem an awful lot like wights and dead things in the water." However, I would say that one of the sagas in which they feature, that of Hromund Gripsson, might be of interest, in that the hero wins his sword Mistletoe from one of the draugar (a sorcerous wight-like king named Thrainn); I know that some of you are interested in the mythology of mistletoe, not to mention magic swords.

Fun fact: draugr is cognate with the Old Irish word for meteor, dréag or driug, (though I believe that in the Irish the meteor is associated with funerals, not births...).

[redriver]

I didn't know him under that historical conext i thought he was a member of house Agiad that held part Kingship with house Erypondid(i'm sure i butchered that spelling) but that quote by his is a nice parallel indeed.I really believe the Wall is at its strongest when the NW are unified and with the current event the magic of the Wall has been diminished.

The very much understated line "It was very cold" appears twice in the novels.The first time is in the prologue to AGOT just before the WW appear.The second is in Mel's foretelling to Jon of "daggers in the dark" where she says "It was very cold".

I don't dismiss that the WW are around when Jon gets stabbed,they may have breached the Wall already.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I think draugar have come up before, since they are so similar to the wights, in so many ways. But I think the conversation didn't take us very far, since there wasn't much in their mythology to really shed much light on what's going on with the wights/WWs--it's basically like, "Yup, they sure seem an awful lot like wights and dead things in the water." However, I would say that one of the sagas in which they feature, that of Hromund Gripsson, might be of interest, in that the hero wins his sword Mistletoe from one of the draugar (a sorcerous wight-like king named Thrainn); I know that some of you are interested in the mythology of mistletoe, not to mention magic swords.

Fun fact: draugr is cognate with the Old Irish word for meteor, dréag or driug, (though I believe that in the Irish the meteor is associated with funerals, not births...).

You know who else was apparently a draugr (of a sort)... Grendel (of Beowulf fame). There is a very interesting write up about the connections here. Of course, the draugr was almost always a physical "ghost" - so, the equivalent of Martin's wights. But in Beowulf, Grendel is specifically described as a "shadow walker" and a "walker in darkness." Wolfmaid can tell us where the wights themselves are described as shadows, I'd bet... but at first blush that looks like a connection to the "white shadows" / "white walkers" known as the Others... (Apparently Tolkien himself used the Grendel/Shadow Walker connections for his descriptions of the Balrog in Moria.)

(On a funnier note... I wonder if anyone's ever done a Ghostbusters analysis? I don't know that it'd go very far. But there are draugrs... there's an "Egon"... there's a "Wall[-Trap]." :) )

The very much understated line "It was very cold" appears twice in the novels.The first time is in the prologue to AGOT just before the WW appear.The second is in Mel's foretelling to Jon of "daggers in the dark" where she says "It was very cold".

I don't dismiss that the WW are around when Jon gets stabbed,they may have breached the Wall already.

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility either. On the other hand... we don't get that particular phrasing during the actual stabbing scene, and almost everyone who dies on-stage mentions "the cold." So when Martin writes that "all [Jon] felt was the cold..." it doesn't seem out of the ordinary at all.

[redriver]

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility either. On the other hand... we don't get that particular phrasing during the actual stabbing scene, and almost everyone who dies on-stage mentions "the cold." So when Martin writes that "all [Jon] felt was the cold..." it doesn't seem out of the ordinary at all.

No we don't,but I think Martin has deliberately limited its use for a reason.Its first use establishes an association.When it's used the second time it's meant to re-trigger that association in our minds.Well,it does in mine.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

No we don't,but I think Martin has deliberately limited its use for a reason.Its first use establishes an association.When it's used the second time it's meant to re-trigger that association in our minds.Well,it does in mine.

No, it's a great catch. I didn't realize the line only appeared twice.

[Black Crow]

The very much understated line "It was very cold" appears twice in the novels.The first time is in the prologue to AGOT just before the WW appear.The second is in Mel's foretelling to Jon of "daggers in the dark" where she says "It was very cold".

I don't dismiss that the WW are around when Jon gets stabbed,they may have breached the Wall already.

The line in that form of words may not appear very often, but there's no doubt that people do notice the cold and in one of the more interesting instances, as I recall, when Mel shows Stannis that vision in the flames of Mormont's people retreating after the debacle on the Fist, he actually feels the cold

[butterbumps!]

Hey guys, quick question:

I was working on a post responding to everyone who'd replied to my obscenely long compendium while I was away. Which, of course, I closed and lost. Between that and the fact that the discussion's moved on, should I send responses over PM, post here anyway, or quote the Heresy posts over to the thread in General where I was going to post the compendium too?

[wolfmaid7]

The very much understated line "It was very cold" appears twice in the novels.The first time is in the prologue to AGOT just before the WW appear.The second is in Mel's foretelling to Jon of "daggers in the dark" where she says "It was very cold".

I don't dismiss that the WW are around when Jon gets stabbed,they may have breached the Wall already.

This is very true i think this is GRRM way of making that connection to the wws.Wheter they've come through i don't know,though i think they could have always come through.But something is happening because again, Mel doesn't feel cold usually.She's felt what she called " very cold " which you've made a connection to and she's felt " unbelievably cold" when she saw the Wights.

I think draugar have come up before, since they are so similar to the wights, in so many ways. But I think the conversation didn't take us very far, since there wasn't much in their mythology to really shed much light on what's going on with the wights/WWs--it's basically like, "Yup, they sure seem an awful lot like wights and dead things in the water." However, I would say that one of the sagas in which they feature, that of Hromund Gripsson, might be of interest, in that the hero wins his sword Mistletoe from one of the draugar (a sorcerous wight-like king named Thrainn); I know that some of you are interested in the mythology of mistletoe, not to mention magic swords.

Fun fact: draugr is cognate with the Old Irish word for meteor, dréag or driug, (though I believe that in the Irish the meteor is associated with funerals, not births...).

You may find this interesting to ,its from the Northern Tradition:

LAND-WIGHTS (OLD NORSE LANDVÆTTIR)

Land-wights are the living embodiment of the might of various features of the natural world. When the

Norse came to Iceland, they found it well-filled with these wights, whose friendship they set about gaining at

once. The weal of the land and those who dwell within it depends on the might and the happiness of the

land-wights; if they are frightened or angered, the land will not thrive and the humans who live upon it will

fare ill in all things. When Egill Skalla-Grímsson set up his nídhing-pole (a cursing pole, carved with runes

and topped with a horse's head) against King Eiríkr Blood-Axe and Queen Gunnhild, he also turned his nídh

against the land-wights, “so that all of them shall lose their way, none of them find nor reach his home till

they drive Eiríkr and Gunnhild from the land.” From that time, Eiríkr and Gunnhild had no luck in Norway

and were eventually forced to flee to England. The land-wights also ward their own country and lands from

human invaders; they dislike the shedding of blood, and they are very loyal to those humans who gain their

trust.

Land-wights are most often found dwelling in boulders and bodies of water, especially waterfalls.

The friendship of a landwight is a useful thing to have; it brings prosperity and luck in all your works, even

52those which would seem to fall outside of these wight's normal realms of nature and fruitfulness of the earth.

They can also tell you of what lies ahead in your life and advise you on the best things to do and the best

times to do them.

The land-wights appear in various forms. Sometimes they are human-like; sometimes they appear as

trolls, sometimes as beasts. The national land-wights of Iceland, who appeared and drove off the wizard of

the Danish king Haraldr Gormsson when he went in the shape of a whale to see if Iceland might be

successfully invaded, are the dragon at the northeast, the bird at the west, the bull at the southeast, and the

rock-giant at the south. The wizard saw each of these creatures to be of gigantic size and followed by a great

host of smaller creatures of the same sort, ready to battle him so that he could not reach the land (had he

succeeded in doing so, he would have known that the luck of the Danes was great enough to overcome

Iceland's might at that time and King Haraldr would have ordered an invasion).

If you should have to move a large stone from its place, you should make very sure that you have

warned any in-dwelling wights well in advance so that they have a chance to move. The same courtesy

should be taken whenever you do any sort of major landscaping work, whether it is building a house,

clearing trees from an area, draining a marshy spot, or altering the flow of a stream. Many Icelandic

farmhouses today have large boulders which they will not plow around nor allow their children to disturb for

fear of annoying the land-wights.

To meet with the land-wights, find such a boulder or go to a waterfall or the peak of a hill. Take

some food and drink; hallow it to them, eating some yourself and leaving some; then tell them who you are

and what you want. Again, remember that politeness is the most important thing in dealing with such wights;

they are not like the demons of ceremonial magic, who can (and must!) be dominated and harshly

commanded in specific detail, but rather they are free beings who have no reason to wish you ill – or even to

deny their help to you – unless you manage to personally offend them.

You know who else was apparently a draugr (of a sort)... Grendel (of Beowulf fame). There is a very interesting write up about the connections here. Of course, the draugr was almost always a physical "ghost" - so, the equivalent of Martin's wights. But in Beowulf, Grendel is specifically described as a "shadow walker" and a "walker in darkness." Wolfmaid can tell us where the wights themselves are described as shadows, I'd bet... but at first blush that looks like a connection to the "white shadows" / "white walkers" known as the Others... (Apparently Tolkien himself used the Grendel/Shadow Walker connections for his descriptions of the Balrog in Moria.)

(On a funnier note... I wonder if anyone's ever done a Ghostbusters analysis? I don't know that it'd go very far. But there are draugrs... there's an "Egon"... there's a "Wall[-Trap]." :) )

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility either. On the other hand... we don't get that particular phrasing during the actual stabbing scene, and almost everyone who dies on-stage mentions "the cold." So when Martin writes that "all [Jon] felt was the cold..." it doesn't seem out of the ordinary at all.

It was in ADWD prologue:

The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some

wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills,

heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a

growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these(ADWD).

[Black Crow]

Hey guys, quick question:

I was working on a post responding to everyone who'd replied to my obscenely long compendium while I was away. Which, of course, I closed and lost. Between that and the fact that the discussion's moved on, should I send responses over PM, post here anyway, or quote the Heresy posts over to the thread in General where I was going to post the compendium too?

Post away; its what heresy's here for.