Heresy 126

[alienarea]

I took this into account by theorizing that it was a human greenseer that was being preserved by the children, perhaps even Bran the Builder himsel, but I'm starting to wonder if it wasn't a human greenseer himself that started it all.

Let's say there is a human greenseer attached to a weirwood that gets destroyed in one of the wars thousands of years after the Pact during the age of heroes, or perhaps when the first Andals land in Westeros (before the full scale invasion).

His weirwood is dieing, so he accesses the weirnet and learns about aeromancy/ice magic, and uses it to replace his own flesh since the weirwood is no longer capable of sustaining him. He curses the family of the people that killed his weirwood (the pre-decessors of the Starks), and demands a human sacrifice in accordance with the Pact to replace the weirwood. He freeze dries the child, preserving it, travels to where Winterfell now stands, where he'll be safe from the invaders/wars and attaches the child to the weirwood and takes over it's body so that he can re-attach to the weirnet.

Perhaps this is what we'll see in the crypts below Winterfell is abandoned ice bodies of the first White Walkers, though it would have to stay awfully cold to preserve them all this time.

Now we are talking. Hug.

And the weirwood was Nagga's bones on the Iron Islands and the greenseer became the Drowned God.

[Toccs]

For those thinking the Children were/are creating the Others, I think its a fair possibility that the Children aren't an entirely united front, all conforming to the same stance on how to deal with men. I'd once assumed this on my own, but after rereading Luwins quote from Clash, where he describes how the crannogmen of old grew close to the Children and were thus able to prevent having the hammer of waters destroy the neck the way it did the Arm of Dorne. I think this alone is enough to raise some questions, seeing as the crannogmen had learned enough of the Children's magic and "grew close" to them, and consequently were able to prevent the hammer of waters; it would seem as if some Children were living amongst the crannogmen while the hammer was being attempted to be brought down by different Children

The quote you are referencing does not at all suggest either a schism amongst the Children or that the Crannogmen were able to prevent them using the hammer on the Neck.

From AGOT

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

From AOK

Theon was about to tell him what he ought to do with his wet nurse's fable when Maester Luwin spoke up. "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

If anything it makes it sound like they were allied with the Children.

[Black Crow]

But he's both, thus the Song of Ice AND Fire, not Ice or Fire, or the Song of Ice and the Song of Fire.

That's pretty much the standard response from the R+L=J crowd if you try to factor Lyanna into the equation rather than promoting him as Jon Targaryen, lost heir to the Iron Throne.

There is however an interesting observation by Tyrion, looking at Jon and seeing Ned Stark in his face and character. I don't recall the exact words but essentially he reflects that whoever his mother was she had left little or nothing of herself in her son. However that is predicated on the widespread belief that Jon is the son of Eddard Stark. In reality he appears to be the son of Lyanna Stark and the observation needs to be turned around because what Tyrion actally sees is little or nothing of Jon's father - Rhaegar - instead he is indeed a son of Winterfell with little or nothing of Old Valyria.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

I'm going to suggest something weird here and bear with me.

1. It is Winter,yet we have a Summer King already being seated without a Winter King in play........Why i don't know

2. We have Benero's prophecy concerning Dany including a "Summer that will never end"

3. Who could usher in a Summer that's endless,what creatures would benefit from an endless Summer?

Just thought of this..

My gods.... It's the Beach Boys!

(sorry)

[Urrax2]

...A curious ripple in all this, though, is the role of the "woods witch" and Jenny of Oldstones in the tPtwP business. Many have speculated that she is the Ghost of High Heart and possibly a singer. Is her "dragon-breeding" recommendation (that is, how to create the PtwP) evidence of "factions" among the Children, or was this somehow part of a plan against the dragons?

As to the Ghost of HH being a CotF, it's been pointed out that if she had four-fingered hands and cat's eyes, somebody would surely have commented on it.

[alienarea]

My gods.... It's the Beach Boys!

(sorry)

Didn't one of them drown?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

That's pretty much the standard response from the R+L=J crowd if you try to factor Lyanna into the equation rather than promoting him as Jon Targaryen, lost heir to the Iron Throne.

There is however an interesting observation by Tyrion, looking at Jon and seeing Ned Stark in his face and character. I don't recall the exact words but essentially he reflects that whoever his mother was she had left little or nothing of herself in her son. However that is predicated on the widespread belief that Jon is the son of Eddard Stark. In reality he appears to be the son of Lyanna Stark and the observation needs to be turned around because what Tyrion actally sees is little or nothing of Jon's father - Rhaegar - instead he is indeed a son of Winterfell with little or nothing of Old Valyria.

I disagree with you AND the R+L=J crowd in that I think Jon is significant because he's descendant from BOTH magical lines, not one or the other.

[Hrafntýr]

As to the Ghost of HH being a CotF, it's been pointed out that if she had four-fingered hands and cat's eyes, somebody would surely have commented on it.

I dunno, maybe they got distracted by the red eyes and floor-length white hair! I just remember that Jenny of Oldstones claimed her woods witch friend was one of the CotF, and there's pretty ample evidence to suggest that the Ghost of High Heart is that same woods witch.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

As to the Ghost of HH being a CotF, it's been pointed out that if she had four-fingered hands and cat's eyes, somebody would surely have commented on it.

What does Mel look like under her glamour? Why hasn't someone commented on it?

[Direwolf Blitzer]

On a more on-topic note...

Isn't the text pretty ham-handed in telling us that Jon is Azor Ahai? I'm thinking of Mel's visions ("I ask for AA, and he only shows me Snow!") and Jon's own dream, where "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

The dream is dicy, though, as in it he's fighting wildlings, his own sworn brothers, and even Robb, screaming "I am the Lord of Winterfell!" So on the one hand, magic ice armor and magic fire sword, on the other hand, maybe just a run-of-the-mill anxiety dream.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Didn't one of them drown?

Yeah, Dennis Wilson. It wasn't the hammer of the waters, but he was hammered and got in the water...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/EndlessSummerBBCover.jpg/220px-EndlessSummerBBCover.jpg

[Ygritte]

That's pretty much the standard response from the R+L=J crowd if you try to factor Lyanna into the equation rather than promoting him as Jon Targaryen, lost heir to the Iron Throne.

There is however an interesting observation by Tyrion, looking at Jon and seeing Ned Stark in his face and character. I don't recall the exact words but essentially he reflects that whoever his mother was she had left little or nothing of herself in her son. However that is predicated on the widespread belief that Jon is the son of Eddard Stark. In reality he appears to be the son of Lyanna Stark and the observation needs to be turned around because what Tyrion actally sees is little or nothing of Jon's father - Rhaegar - instead he is indeed a son of Winterfell with little or nothing of Old Valyria.

He's got the melancholy, though. :D

[Black Crow]

He's got the melancholy, though. :D

So have the Starks - which was another of Tyrion's observations about Jon's long gloomy Stark face - and anyway what's he got to be cheerful about? :devil:

[Black Crow]

On a more on-topic note...

Isn't the text pretty ham-handed in telling us that Jon is Azor Ahai? I'm thinking of Mel's visions ("I ask for AA, and he only shows me Snow!") and Jon's own dream, where "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

The dream is dicy, though, as in it he's fighting wildlings, his own sworn brothers, and even Robb, screaming "I am the Lord of Winterfell!" So on the one hand, magic ice armor and magic fire sword, on the other hand, maybe just a run-of-the-mill anxiety dream.

Gods no - that's generally reckoned to be evidence of Mel's fallibility and a bigger red herring than Craster's sons.

[Black Crow]

What does Mel look like under her glamour? Why hasn't someone commented on it?

Well nobody we know has seen what's under Mel's glamour, but in the past there's been a pretty broad consensus that whatever it is it aint pretty.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Gods no - that's generally reckoned to be evidence of Mel's fallibility and a bigger red herring than Craster's sons.

It would be quite un-GRRM in its straightforward, obvious nature, but couldn't her fallibility be in her failure to recognize that she's being showed exactly what she asked for? Snow is AA; she just expects to see Stannis, so she blames the fire instead of herself.

What do we know about the fire-gazing? It does seem that the priest can direct the vision, at least a little. I mean, no one ever gazes into the fire and sees someone in Oldtown eating breakfast, for example.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Now we are talking. Hug.

And the weirwood was Nagga's bones on the Iron Islands and the greenseer became the Drowned God.

Interesting thought. What if all of the "Gods" from the Age of Heroes were Human Greenseers? Each with their own "nexus" of power.

One was known as the Drowned God, inhabitting the grove of 44 weirwoods on what is now Old Wyk. Another is where Winterfell now stands, and perhaps it was the "Cold God". The Storm God etc...

Anyways, here's the story of the Grey King if you want to try to fit that into the narrative somehow.

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron's heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Well nobody we know has seen what's under Mel's glamour, but in the past there's been a pretty broad consensus that whatever it is it aint pretty.

The point being if Mel can hide her real appearance, why couldn't Jenny of Oldstones "woodswitch", ie a singer, do the same?

[Black Crow]

It would be quite un-GRRM in its straightforward, obvious nature, but couldn't her fallibility be in her failure to recognize that she's being showed exactly what she asked for? Snow is AA; she just expects to see Stannis, so she blames the fire instead of herself.

What do we know about the fire-gazing? It does seem that the priest can direct the vision, at least a little. I mean, no one ever gazes into the fire and sees someone in Oldtown eating breakfast, for example.

Mel does reflect, before girding her loins for yet another attempt to read the tea-leaves properly, that many a seer has been undone by trying too hard to see what they want to see rather than taking what they get. In this case it needs to be borne in mind that Mel isn't asking for Azor Ahai to be revealed to her. She already "knows" who he is, he's Stannis and what she want to know is where Stannis/Azor Ahai is at that moment. Instead she gets a totally different channel showing Jon Snow surrounded by skulls and the real question is whether this means that he's in danger or whether he is the danger.

[Black Crow]

The point being if Mel can hide her real appearance, why couldn't Jenny of Oldstones "woodswitch", ie a singer, do the same?

Perfectly true, but on the other hand if La Oldstones wanted wanted to promote the "woodswitch" as a Singer it would surely be in their interest to make sure that she looked like one rather than disguising her as human. I've no strong views on this but its a factor that ought to be considered.