Heresy 126

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Gods no - that's generally reckoned to be evidence of Mel's fallibility and a bigger red herring than Craster's sons.

Well she doesn't really believe it, or catch the clue... So is she fallible because she's getting the wrong image or because she won't listen to the obvious answer?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Perfectly true, but on the other hand if La Oldstones wanted wanted to promote the "woodswitch" as a Singer it would surely be in their interest to make sure that she looked like one rather than disguising her as human. I've no strong views on this but its a factor that ought to be considered.

I don't think a Singer would agree to be seen as is in the open with followers of the seven around, they hunted down the Children and burned down their weirwoods.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wait...that was a joke!?! Haha, and here I've been taking it seriously all along!

I dig this, BC. And all the conversations we had last thread about the "female Other" somehow worked to make me feel that AA is the "baddie" (and possibly that NK a hero), so I'm especially receptive! I really like how your hypothesis allows the Dany=AA equation to remain intact and offers a plausible "trigger" for the apparent escalation of activity beyond the wall.

I also am interested in considering how the various parties opposed to dragons might fit together. I just this morning came upon an interesting thread, The Gods Eye Conspiracy, which is looking to the factions opposed to the dragons and seeks to link together House Hightower, House Whent and the greenseers. The OP has only addressed the first two so far, and I'm quite curious to see what he or she does to bring in the greenseers, since it's thus far only come in tangentially, with the role of Gods Eye in the events of the Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion.

A curious ripple in all this, though, is the role of the "woods witch" and Jenny of Oldstones in the tPtwP business. Many have speculated that she is the Ghost of High Heart and possibly a singer. Is her "dragon-breeding" recommendation (that is, how to create the PtwP) evidence of "factions" among the Children, or was this somehow part of a plan against the dragons?

I read the first few posts in that thread, and was disappointed. The idea is great. The evidence is vague and lacking, so far. I expect some of the questions at the root of that alleged "conspiracy" will get filled in over the next 2 books. But we can't just fill in all the details ourselves in the meantime. (Granted, I speak from my initial impression after reading the OP's laying out of his groundwork. If you think it's worth rereading, then I might take another look. I just thought it lost a lot of steam very quickly...)

I'm going to suggest something weird here and bear with me.

1. It is Winter,yet we have a Summer King already being seated without a Winter King in play........Why i don't know

2. We have Benero's prophecy concerning Dany including a "Summer that will never end"

3. Who could usher in a Summer that's endless,what creatures would benefit from an endless Summer?

Just thought of this..

I've seen this question (#1 above) raised a few times recently. Now, the Winter King / Summer King theory... is not mine. I think Black Crow is the one who I've seen advocating for it... But to go anywhere with it, then putting the Summer season below ground does make a certain kind of sense. You just have to remember that, from that underground chair, he rules the underground realm, and not the "real world" of the living in Westeros. In other words, just as the ancient Greeks envisioned the Sun descending below the earth (ie., underground) at sunset, then traveling back across the world through Hades to repeat his celestial circuit the next day... or as they imagined Persephone spending 6 months of every year in the underworld, only to reemerge with her power in the spring... so Bran (as King of Summer) leaves the land of the living, and takes his place "in storage," below ground, in the realm of the dead.

EUROPEAN SKY-GOD and the WINTER KING / SUMMER KING Theory

So I read something recently by A.B. Cook, a member of the "myth and ritual school" of scholarship influenced by James Frazer, that would fit well with this idea - and puts an interesting spin on the Starks of Winterfell. Cook's reconstruction of the "European Sky-God" mythology is dated and probably much qualified these days (if not entirely de-bunked), but in 1906 it was a major attempt to integrate Greek, Roman, and Celtic myths as historical descendants of a hypothesized common "European" culture. And part of the idea seems to be that the sky or sun god also had a darker aspect (a chthonian character). In terms of the Celtic sky-god, Cook discusses Nudd (the Welsh name, also Nuada in Irish), and references a particularly interesting verse of the Book of Taliessin:

Pleasant is Nud, the superior wolf-lord;

Also pleasant the Generous one of the feast of Golystaf...

Cook discusses the relationship between gods and kings, and argues that kings were held to be earthly embodiments of their gods, and often assumed the name of the god as one of their titles. Thus, the king associated with Nudd is occasionally referred to as "the Nud" in certain texts - and is marked in particular for his generosity. (Starts to sound a bit familiar, doesn't it? The Nud... superior wolf-lord, beloved of his people for his generosity?) Cook also traces the connections between the oak and the apple as sacred trees associated with this insular Celtic god... (a piece I find particularly interesting ;) )

Back to the darker aspect of the sky god... get this: Cook identifies the time of transition as Samhain, the beginning of Celtic winter, when Nuada (Nudd) god of the summer-sky was slain by Balar (apparently this night was also known as "Snap-apple Night" or "Nut-crack Night" in some areas of Ireland). Balar was one of several connected names (including Beli and Bile) for the Celtic god of darkness and death, all deriving from the root BEL. Variations of this name were applied both to kings and to sacred trees associated with this darker aspect of the sky/fire god, and meanings of the Irish word bile also came to include "champion" and "progenitor." (Cook also ties this name to Beltaine, and the ritual "solar fires" lit beneath the sacred tree known as the bile.)

[ETA: Apparently, there is more to the story of Balar's defeat of Nuada (Nudd). In that same battle, after Balar slays Nuada, Balar himself is slain by Lug. Lug strikes off Balar's head, then hangs it in the fork of a hazel-tree. Burdened by this deathly ornament, the hazel tree splits, and the poisonous blood dripping from the head causes all the leaves to fall from the tree. Then for fifty years, the tree is the dwelling place of crows and ravens... until Manannan mac Lir passes by and orders his mean to dig it up. << Insert Craster's Keep analogies here >> ]

The Celtic Anna is identified in different texts as the wife of Nudd and the wife of Beli... and Cook suggests that we see a survival of her darker character in the legends of Black Anna who was said to haunt a cave near Leiscester. (I know we've discussed some of this stuff before around here, so I'm recapping just a bit...) There is also some great analysis of the ways certain heros fit into this paradigm - Cook goes into the stories of both Cuchulain and Gawain as potential derivatives of this Celtic sky-god. But anyway...

Obviously there are plenty of connections to be made in this material. Just to sum up the bit I've outlined here... we might see:

1. Ned Stark - connected with "the Nud," priest-king of the Celtic god of the summer sky, generous and "superior wolf-lord"

Bael - connected with BEL, the darker aspect of the sky-god, whose reign begins at the end of the harvest (Samhain), and extends through winter

Gilly - connected with Anna, and particularly with Black Anna (another name for the Black Gilliflower apple is "Black Annie")

In other words, this works out rather well per BC's suggestion of a Summer King / Winter King game-of-musical-chairs... assuming a couple of adjustments. The main one, I think, is that the key roles for Martin's present narrative are played by characters at least one generation removed from those most easily identifiable with the namesake deities discussed by Cook. Bran is son of "the Ned," while Jon Snow is (we deduce) son of "the Bael"... though if Ned and Bael can be read as titles, it's not difficult to view Bran and Jon as ascending to these positions in Westeros. The other thing to remember here is that Martin is always integrating his source inspirations... and in this case, it can become rather difficult to separate the Celtic and Old Norse roles for Bran, in particular (for reference, see: the Branstock, or the Barnstokkr). Obviously, Martin uses the sacred tree as a common image / linchpin for connecting various Ancient Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Germanic/Old Norse traditions, etc. (ETA: Thus, Bran Stark ~ Branstock... and Jon Snow ~ the Bael Fruit.)

Speaking for myself, I do find it rather eye-opening to consider the possibility that Martin's King of Winter (and / or his Kings in the North) would reflect a tradition of priest-kings associated with a solar deity. Just considering the idea makes me wonder again whether the Starks (and Jon Snow) might actually represent agents of fire rather than ice (to the extent we continue to speak in dualities). There are some indications that could be (or might have been) the case... including the warm water flowing through the walls of Winterfell like blood. And it makes a certain kind of sense that humans, as living beings, would side with warmth and... well, life... in opposition to death and the absence of warmth. But all in all, I feel pushed to re-frame my thinking about the overall story once again - and I'm circling back around to the idea that, in Martin's world, both Ice and Fire are adversaries for life and humanity. To survive each extreme, perhaps it makes sense for humankind to rely upon a certain champion - one to "sort out" Ice, and one to "sort out" Fire?

(I know, I know, BC - you were already there... and you've been telling us the whole time. Some of us just have to work things though. ;) Now, what I'd really like to do is to start "sorting out" the connections with the Perseus/Medusa and Sigurd/Dragon inspirations... but I've got some reading to do before I'll be completely ready for that.)

ETA: If you'd like to read any of Cook's stuff yourself, his discussion of "The Celts" begins here: page 27 of Folklore, Volume 17.

ETA2: See bracketed text, above re: Defeat of Balar by Lug... and the split hazel tree, home to crows and ravens...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The original gods of the First Men were the Lord of the Skies and the Lady of the Waves. To me this roughly translates to Sun (Lord of the Skies) and Moon (Lady of the Waves as the moon causes the tides).

I think this could also have the same root as the "Sun/Moon" as husband/wife gods story of the Dothraki, as I think it's clear that the Dothraki and the original First Men likely come from a singular root.

And later, when the Andals started to follow the Seven I think it descended from the same mythos with the Father, Warrior, Smith coming from the male sun god, and the Mother, Maid, Crone coming from the female moon god, and the Stranger representing balance and death.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The original gods of the First Men were the Lord of the Skies and the Lady of the Waves. To me this roughly translates to Sun (Lord of the Skies) and Moon (Lady of the Waves as the moon causes the tides).

I think this could also have the same root as the "Sun/Moon" as husband/wife gods story of the Dothraki, as I think it's clear that the Dothraki and the original First Men likely come from a singular root.

And later, when the Andals started to follow the Seven I think it descended from the same mythos with the Father, Warrior, Smith coming from the male sun god, and the Mother, Maid, Crone coming from the female moon god, and the Stranger representing balance and death.

Yes, I think that's a good way of getting to the "root" of a lot of the religious-cultural background. And we've talked before about the ways that Martin seems to re-construct the in-story mythologies in ways that reflect possible relationships between real-world cultures. The piece of this that's been on my mind lately is the way that - viewed from this perspective - the Fire/Ice pairing looks like it has a more to do with male/female gender dynamics than with any kind of conflict between particular cultures or geographies. (Thus, in part, my recent interest in feminist intertextual theory...) And that makes sense really... though it's still a bit of a puzzle to see how that reading ends up providing resolution for our narrative(s).

[wolfmaid7]

I read the first few posts in that thread, and was disappointed. The idea is great. The evidence is vague and lacking, so far. I expect some of the questions at the root of that alleged "conspiracy" will get filled in over the next 2 books. But we can't just fill in all the details ourselves in the meantime. (Granted, I speak from my initial impression after reading the OP's laying out of his groundwork. If you think it's worth rereading, then I might take another look. I just thought it lost a lot of steam very quickly...)

I've seen this question (#1 above) raised a few times recently. Now, the Winter King / Summer King theory... is not mine. I think Black Crow is the one who I've seen advocating for it... But to go anywhere with it, then putting the Summer season below ground does make a certain kind of sense. You just have to remember that, from that underground chair, he rules the underground realm, and not the "real world" of the living in Westeros. In other words, just as the ancient Greeks envisioned the Sun descending below the earth (ie., underground) at sunset, then traveling back across the world through Hades to repeat his celestial circuit the next day... or as they imagined Persephone spending 6 months of every year in the underworld, only to reemerge with her power in the spring... so Bran (as King of Summer) leaves the land of the living, and takes his place "in storage," below ground, in the realm of the dead.

Now here's the problem i see with this and there's a lot i agree with in what you are saying because maybe unkown to you there is a strong indication that this is the relationship of Bran(Oak King) and Jon (Holly King) they both rule one half of the year/seasons and are adversaries. Bran may not know it but he's maybe being prepared to go against brother Jon ( the Holly King).The Holly and Oak King are the dual aspects of the male Earth deity, with one ruling the waxing year, the other ruling the waning year.There is usually a battle between them when the seasons turn.

My knowledge of the Summer King/Oak King maybe a bit different ( note i do this communal ritual battle every year) because he is always accompanied with the Winter King/Holly King.

Now Bran's vision of Jon makes sense and it makes even more sense why BR told him " Now you know why you must live because Winter is coming".

[Hrafntýr]

I don't think a Singer would agree to be seen as is in the open with followers of the seven around, they hunted down the Children and burned down their weirwoods.

Though Leaf tells Meera (in the Common Tongue!):

"I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

I don't think that glamour is at all necessary, really. People will see what they expect to see: a dwarf, a child, a little old woman, etc.

But, say, hypothetically speaking, that Jenny's woods witch was a singer.

1. What's she doing advising the mating of dragons?

2. Did she "gorge on grief" at Summerhall because her plans had failed? Because they had succeeded, but at great cost (the death of Jenny, perhaps?)?

[wolfmaid7]

Though Leaf tells Meera (in the Common Tongue!):

"I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

I don't think that glamour is at all necessary, really. People will see what they expect to see: a dwarf, a child, a little old woman, etc.

But, say, hypothetically speaking, that Jenny's woods witch was a singer.

1. What's she doing advising the mating of dragons?

2. Did she "gorge on grief" at Summerhall because her plans had failed? Because they had succeeded, but at great cost (the death of Jenny, perhaps?)?

I'm somewhat reminded of the Oracles statement to Neo in the first matrix

Oracle : Don't worry about the vase

Neo: What vase....( knocks it over and breaks it)

Oracle: I told you don't worry about it

Neo: How did you know that ?

Oracle: Ohh ohh what's really going to blow your mind later is if you would have broken it had i not said anything.

Back to your post,maybe it wasn't so much of a prophecy than making sure something happened down the line and i'm going to go back again to our previous discussion about how the gods mark those they choose to recieve the gift.Now we have yet another individual who is acting like a person moving pieces around.

[Hrafntýr]

I read the first few posts in that thread, and was disappointed. The idea is great. The evidence is vague and lacking, so far. I expect some of the questions at the root of that alleged "conspiracy" will get filled in over the next 2 books. But we can't just fill in all the details ourselves in the meantime. (Granted, I speak from my initial impression after reading the OP's laying out of his groundwork. If you think it's worth rereading, then I might take another look. I just thought it lost a lot of steam very quickly...)

No, you're right, at least right now it doesn't hang together as a full-blown conspiracy theory. I'm definitely waiting to see what the OP does to tie in the greenseers, if he or she does. However, I agree with one of the OP's initial insights that the best way to get rid of dragons is for them to kill one another; it's what I found so devastating about TPatQ, the fact that the Targs had no regard for the fact that they were basically killing off all the dragons known to exist. But then, I guess that if the human "dragons" really and truly identify with the nonhuman dragons, and see themselves as a race apart from other humans, they can't be expected to have a "preservationist" attitude toward nonhuman dragons! Anyhow, I guess for me there were enough interesting little titbits to make it worth reading through each of the OPs subsequent little essays. And given that we seem to be set up for the Citadel and possibly House Hightower to take the stage in a larger role, it seems timely to think about the material the OP is presenting. Not to mention that I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Harrenhal! I think our "wolf with bat wings" might make her way there.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Now here's the problem i see with this and there's a lot i agree with in what you are saying because maybe unkown to you there is a strong indication that this is the relationship of Bran(Oak King) and Jon (Holly King) they both rule one half of the year/seasons and are adversaries. Bran may not know it but he's maybe being prepared to go against brother Jon ( the Holly King).The Holly and Oak King are the dual aspects of the male Earth deity, with one ruling the waxing year, the other ruling the waning year.There is usually a battle between them when the seasons turn.

My knowledge of the Summer King/Oak King maybe a bit different ( note i do this communal ritual battle every year) because he is always accompanied with the Winter King/Holly King.

Now Bran's vision of Jon makes sense and it makes even more sense why BR told him " Now you know why you must live because Winter is coming".

The Oak King image is definitely a part of Cook's view of things - in fact, historically, the Oak King / Holly King archetypes come out of precisely this kind of analysis of cultures and myths. And Cook finds some really interesting connections between the Oak and the Apple trees as sacred trees for Insular Celtic traditions that I hope to circle back on as some point. (It seems that some of the sacred trees identified in older texts were identified as both oaks and apples... bearing acorns, apples, and nuts simultaneously... :eek: no wonder the Celts thought trees were so cool!)

Personally, I'm not sure that we'll see Jon and Bran run into that kind of conflict with one another - for a couple of reasons. One is that Bran is not the only figure we've seen play this role of "summer king" - another one, north of the Wall anyway, would have to be Craster. And if the traditional Samhain conflict story has any kind of analogue in Martin's text, then it's pretty clear we've already seen it at the "inverse feast" held at Craster's table. (The idea of "Snap-Apple" or "Nut-Crack" Night evoke images of madness to me... reminding me of that line in ASOS, chapter 33: "And then the world went mad.") But another reason we might not see that kind of conflict between Jon and Bran is that - in a literary sense - the figures of the summer sky-god and the winter sky-god are interpreted to have been two different aspects of the same god. So if they aren't literally slaying one another, another interpretation of the two figures might be that they operate together - two aspects of a solar champion, each designated to rule for a season. Obviously Jon and Bran are two different characters - but their roles may end up being very similar, if not identical: each (in different seasons) serves as the "son of Winterfell" and champion/defender of men.

Raises a number of questions in my mind. For instance... is this separation of summer/winter aspects of the sky god reflected in the difference between the Stark of Winterfell, and the Stark on the Wall? That works in terms of the Bran/Jon division, and would add some depth to our reading of the Night's King story. Also: if "madness" at Craster's Keep fits the traditional story of seasonal transition at Samhain... then how does that affect our understanding of Craster's Keep and Winterfell? Jeor Mormont also was killed there, so that paved the way toward Jon's ascendancy. And if Gilly represents some combination of Celtic goddess figures, perhaps that fits in as well. But the King-beyond-the-Wall was always Mance Rayder; it was never Craster,.. In fact, of all the characters who potentially line up with these Celtic priest-king figures... exactly zero of them have claimed kingship. (Though technically either Bran or Jon was probably "king" at the time they crossed paths in Queenscrown... because Bran dreamed of Robb's death just at that time. And actually - now that I think on it - that sequence of events almost can't be coincidental timing on Martin's part. Huh...) Anyway, the only characters north of the Neck who explicitly claim kingship are Mance and Stannis. So where do they fit in - if at all? Questions, questions... :dunno:

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

New to posting, but I've been here for years. First post to Heresy for sure, but I've been reading them awhile.

The thing that bothers me about all the prophecy featured in the text is that so little of it actually comes from the one place that the threat comes from.

All of the Azor Azai prophecy comes from Essos, which is unlikely to ever be affected by the Others in any meaningful way- so the fact they'd have a prophecy about it at all seems really strange to me to begin with.

We know far too little about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, but we know that Rhaegar was trying to bring it about, and that Maester Aemon had been trying to puzzle it out also- which likely means that it's Westerosi, or at least was common knowledge in Westeros at some point.

Then we have the Last Hero, which seems to be a specifically Northern variant on the same theme as the first two, but is framed not as a prophecy but as a story about the end of the Long Night/ Battle for the Dawn.

My guess has always been that the Last Hero/Azor Azai and the Prince Who Was Promised are separate people. It makes little sense to me that Dany could be Azor Azai. The story is pretty straightforward that it includes a sword that has to be tempered through the heart of the thing you love most. I just don't see a dragon fitting a prophecy about a sword. Even as prophetic metaphor, it'd make little sense. And Dany couldn't wield a sword if she had one, so to me, it's plainly not her.

My thought has long been that this particular Battle for the Dawn will feature the Targaryen line extinguished completely to save the realm they never truly belonged to in the first place. They escaped the Doom through conquest of Westeros. I figure before the end, Jon and Dany will die fulfilling their destiny and bring the world back into the balance the Doom tried to bring it.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

No, you're right, at least right now it doesn't hang together as a full-blown conspiracy theory. I'm definitely waiting to see what the OP does to tie in the greenseers, if he or she does. However, I agree with one of the OP's initial insights that the best way to get rid of dragons is for them to kill one another; it's what I found so devastating about TPatQ, the fact that the Targs had no regard for the fact that they were basically killing off all the dragons known to exist. But then, I guess that if the human "dragons" really and truly identify with the nonhuman dragons, and see themselves as a race apart from other humans, they can't be expected to have a "preservationist" attitude toward nonhuman dragons! Anyhow, I guess for me there were enough interesting little titbits to make it worth reading through each of the OPs subsequent little essays. And given that we seem to be set up for the Citadel and possibly House Hightower to take the stage in a larger role, it seems timely to think about the material the OP is presenting. Not to mention that I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Harrenhal! I think our "wolf with bat wings" might make her way there.

It's possible it might develop into something interesting. Though I think if the OP really wants to do anything with that stuff, he'll need to take a much closer look at Archmaester Walgrave... (I keep saying I'm gonna give this theory its own post... still haven't done it.) But in general, I just don't think we have enough information to make the kinds of big picture connections he wants to make in that thread right now...

[Hrafntýr]

It's possible it might develop into something interesting. Though I think if the OP really wants to do anything with that stuff, he'll need to take a much closer look at Archmaester Walgrave... (I keep saying I'm gonna give this theory its own post... still haven't done it.) But in general, I just don't think we have enough information to make the kinds of big picture connections he wants to make in that thread right now...

Oh, but he or she has, perhaps you didn't read enough of his/her posts. The links the OP makes are those between Walgrave/Hightower and Walys to set up the "Southron Ambitions" part of the theory. Then there's that bit about how Walgrave has forgotten more about ravens than most people ever know (paraphrase, but something like that). But perhaps you've got more in mind? What makes this interesting are the structural parallels between Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion, in terms of the primary actors (Hightower/Strong (of Harrenhal) and Hightower/Whent (of Harrenhal).

[Hrafntýr]

New to posting, but I've been here for years. First post to Heresy for sure, but I've been reading them awhile.

The thing that bothers me about all the prophecy featured in the text is that so little of it actually comes from the one place that the threat comes from.

All of the Azor Azai prophecy comes from Essos, which is unlikely to ever be affected by the Others in any meaningful way- so the fact they'd have a prophecy about it at all seems really strange to me to begin with.

We know far too little about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, but we know that Rhaegar was trying to bring it about, and that Maester Aemon had been trying to puzzle it out also- which likely means that it's Westerosi, or at least was common knowledge in Westeros at some point.

Then we have the Last Hero, which seems to be a specifically Northern variant on the same theme as the first two, but is framed not as a prophecy but as a story about the end of the Long Night/ Battle for the Dawn.

My guess has always been that the Last Hero/Azor Azai and the Prince Who Was Promised are separate people. It makes little sense to me that Dany could be Azor Azai. The story is pretty straightforward that it includes a sword that has to be tempered through the heart of the thing you love most. I just don't see a dragon fitting a prophecy about a sword. Even as prophetic metaphor, it'd make little sense. And Dany couldn't wield a sword if she had one, so to me, it's plainly not her.

My thought has long been that this particular Battle for the Dawn will feature the Targaryen line extinguished completely to save the realm they never truly belonged to in the first place. They escaped the Doom through conquest of Westeros. I figure before the end, Jon and Dany will die fulfilling their destiny and bring the world back into the balance the Doom tried to bring it.

Welcome, Bog Devil!

If you've read some heresy, then you probably know that we've spent a lot of time trying to think through the question of whether these three figures, AA, tPtwP, and the Last Hero are one and the same. Opinions vary! I'm inclined to throw other legendary figures into the mix, such as Night's King, the Grey King, the Shrouded Lord, maybe Durran: any figure that has intimate contact with an Other. Now, of the legendary figures, only AA seems to have a prophecy attached to him regarding a second coming. The PtwP is only a prophecy, with no clear precursor, though obviously there's been a melding of the AA and PtwP prophecies, so that Mel seems to use them interchangeably. But you're right: there's no prophecy associated with ice. There's just two legends: the Last Hero and Night's King. Last Hero is most like AA: he's got a sword, at least (though his sword breaks in the LN story, though another legend speaks of him slaying a monster with a sword). My money is currently (though this will no doubt change!) on NK being the significant story, though: unlike AA who kills the loved female, NK gives himself to the White Lady. I think AA brought bad stuff, although he's remembered as a hero, while I suspect that although NK has been condemned, he might have been on the right track.

I think Dany could still be AA, even without a literal sword. Prophecies are awfully malleable things, and they're only "fulfilled" when enough people say that they are, because they want to interpret certain events as the fulfillment of the prophecy. We've seen Balerian "The Black Dread," why not, "Drogon the Lightbringer"?!? (Actually, I'm not really thinking that dragon=lightbringer, but I do think prophecies are malleable enough that they often find unexpected interpretations).

[TheButcherCrow]

BC was talking earlier about Dany's birth maybe being a trigger for the events unfolding. I'm not convinced tbh. I feel like a single trigger event would be a bit out of character for the author. None of his conflicts have any one, single cause. Many millions of forums pages will attest to that. No, his conflicts arise because of choices, choices made by multiple actors over thousands of years. This is why I feel like maybe Dany & Jon's births were just another two significant events all feeding into one, giant shitstorm.

[redriver]

New to posting, but I've been here for years. First post to Heresy for sure, but I've been reading them awhile.

The thing that bothers me about all the prophecy featured in the text is that so little of it actually comes from the one place that the threat comes from.

All of the Azor Azai prophecy comes from Essos, which is unlikely to ever be affected by the Others in any meaningful way- so the fact they'd have a prophecy about it at all seems really strange to me to begin with.

We know far too little about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, but we know that Rhaegar was trying to bring it about, and that Maester Aemon had been trying to puzzle it out also- which likely means that it's Westerosi, or at least was common knowledge in Westeros at some point.

Then we have the Last Hero, which seems to be a specifically Northern variant on the same theme as the first two, but is framed not as a prophecy but as a story about the end of the Long Night/ Battle for the Dawn.

My guess has always been that the Last Hero/Azor Azai and the Prince Who Was Promised are separate people. It makes little sense to me that Dany could be Azor Azai. The story is pretty straightforward that it includes a sword that has to be tempered through the heart of the thing you love most. I just don't see a dragon fitting a prophecy about a sword. Even as prophetic metaphor, it'd make little sense. And Dany couldn't wield a sword if she had one, so to me, it's plainly not her.

My thought has long been that this particular Battle for the Dawn will feature the Targaryen line extinguished completely to save the realm they never truly belonged to in the first place. They escaped the Doom through conquest of Westeros. I figure before the end, Jon and Dany will die fulfilling their destiny and bring the world back into the balance the Doom tried to bring it.

Great point.Looking at the ancient myths and future prophecies one wonders why Asshai would be bothered about what happened in the past in Westeros or even more so ,what will happen in its future.

My take is that Asshai and everywhere in between was affected by the same event,but in different ways.The hammer of the waters.Which was a comet turned meteor,or perhaps meteors.Just like the comet peppered through ACOK,the original had its epithets too.I suggest the Horn of Winter,Lightbringer and the Dragon may have been epithets attached to the original hammer,depending on your perspective.

I suggested in an earlier post that the Others were the price of this sorcery,but dragons were brought in prototype form too imo.The Qartheen trader's tale of the moon getting too near the sun,splitting and spilling forth a thousand thousand dragons testifies to an extra terrestrial origin of dragons.The title of Septon Barth's tome Dragons,Wyrms and Wyverns;their unnatural history suggests something similar.As does the fact that the dragons ,which according to GRRM were everywhere seem to have become extinct,well until the latest comet came along.

I'm of the opinion that Martin is using comets in his mythological world building as we have flood myths in RL.

As an aside,I think Martin was writing AGOT when Shoemaker-Levi broke into five pieces and crashed into Jupiter.Open to correction here.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Welcome, Bog Devil!

If you've read some heresy, then you probably know that we've spent a lot of time trying to think through the question of whether these three figures, AA, tPtwP, and the Last Hero are one and the same. Opinions vary! I'm inclined to throw other legendary figures into the mix, such as Night's King, the Grey King, the Shrouded Lord, maybe Durran: any figure that has intimate contact with an Other. Now, of the legendary figures, only AA seems to have a prophecy attached to him regarding a second coming. The PtwP is only a prophecy, with no clear precursor, though obviously there's been a melding of the AA and PtwP prophecies, so that Mel seems to use them interchangeably. But you're right: there's no prophecy associated with ice. There's just two legends: the Last Hero and Night's King. Last Hero is most like AA: he's got a sword, at least (though his sword breaks in the LN story, though another legend speaks of him slaying a monster with a sword). My money is currently (though this will no doubt change!) on NK being the significant story, though: unlike AA who kills the loved female, NK gives himself to the White Lady. I think AA brought bad stuff, although he's remembered as a hero, while I suspect that although NK has been condemned, he might have been on the right track.

I think Dany could still be AA, even without a literal sword. Prophecies are awfully malleable things, and they're only "fulfilled" when enough people say that they are, because they want to interpret certain events as the fulfillment of the prophecy. We've seen Balerian "The Black Dread," why not, "Drogon the Lightbringer"?!? (Actually, I'm not really thinking that dragon=lightbringer, but I do think prophecies are malleable enough that they often find unexpected interpretations).

I'd like to think that the Night's King has some importance to the story, but the thing that bothers me about that is that the Night's King story happened AFTER the War for the Dawn. The Wall and the Nightfort are already built, and manned by the Night's Watch, and a succession of 13 Lord Commanders has taken place by the time the Night's King is seduced. So if what we're seeing is the new 'Long Night', then I wonder how the Night's King even fits, since it wasn't a part of the struggle that our current story is a direct parallel of.

Now, I keep in mind that Old Nan isn't a reliable story-teller. We have been told that the Night's King name, along with his men has been stricken from history based on his black deeds, yet Old Nan goes for the shock factor of making him Brandon Stark due to her audience. But then, with as many Brandon Starks as there seem to be, Brandon Stark may be one of the best guesses to any question you'd get on trivia night in the longhall on a cold Northern winter night. All hail Brandon Stark, 7,212th of his name, King of Winter, the North, and the First Men! Not to exclusively pick on Old Nan- there's a song that has been featured several times "Iron Lances" (IIRC) seems to tell of the Night's Watch riding out and defeating the Others and ending the Long Night, when what we've seen in the text, they were founded when the wall was built. Misinformation is built into the text by design.

What I've always thought was the important takeaway from the Night's King story was- is that the Others were still around after the end of the Long Night, and that they weren't simply just hanging out in the Land of Always Winter and lying in wait for some far off time when they'd rise again. They were still there in the early days of the Wall, presumably the Night's Watch was still doing battle with them, and the Night's King was born from some sort of enchantment or other-worldly seduction. They were driven back, not defeated, and that story illustrates it. Every other story or song we hear seem to indicate that the Others were defeated, and the wall went up against further incursions, but the Night's King story runs contrary to that notion- they were still making mischief and were still a very real threat.

What I was aluding to in my post about Dany and the Azor Azai prophecy is that a sword is a terrible metaphor for dragon. I don't disagree that prophecies are meant to be malleable, and that metaphor can explain much, but this metaphor doesn't really fit. There's so much detail specifically about Lightbringer in the AA legend that it seems really difficult to reconcile that as a dragon. It even goes into detail about how Lightbringer was unsuccessfully attempted several times, but kept breaking, until it was tempered in Nissa-Nissa's heart.

Dany hatching the dragons doesn't work for me as Lightbringer in metaphor because she didn't fail in hatching anything. I suppose an argument could be made that the Targaryens did fail, and because Dany got it right doesn't exclude her from being AA, but I just don't think the prophecy fits. Dany didn't willingly give up the man she loved for her dragons. She gave her son for Drogo's life, then Drogo's body and Mirri Maz Dur for her dragons. AA plunged Lightbringer through Nissa-Nissa's heart in anguish over his failures to forge Lightbringer. Maybe not the most willing of sacrifices, and we're not certain that it HAS to be the person or thing you love most in the world, but we do know that in AA's case, it was, and that's where Dany doesn't line up to me. She'd already lost those people on other choices.

[Ygritte]

(Though technically either Bran or Jon was probably "king" at the time they crossed paths in Queenscrown... because Bran dreamed of Robb's death just at that time. And actually - now that I think on it - that sequence of events almost can't be coincidental timing on Martin's part. Huh...)

Really good catch, and in both POVs it's so explicitly brought up that the tower is designed to look like it's crowned.

But then, with as many Brandon Starks as there seem to be, Brandon Stark may be one of the best guesses to any question you'd get on trivia night in the longhall on a cold Northern winter night. All hail Brandon Stark, 7,212th of his name, King of Winter, the North, and the First Men!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oh, but he or she has, perhaps you didn't read enough of his/her posts. The links the OP makes are those between Walgrave/Hightower and Walys to set up the "Southron Ambitions" part of the theory. Then there's that bit about how Walgrave has forgotten more about ravens than most people ever know (paraphrase, but something like that). But perhaps you've got more in mind? What makes this interesting are the structural parallels between Dance of the Dragons and Robert's Rebellion, in terms of the primary actors (Hightower/Strong (of Harrenhal) and Hightower/Whent (of Harrenhal).

You're right - he/she's added a good bit since I read through. I still don't think he took the Walgrave pieces to their astounding conclusion. (My last post included a link to a post with links... which may not have been the most helpful pointer. Here is one of my more developed posts on Walgrave: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57647-southron-ambitions-who-is-maester-warlyss-father/page-11#entry5240681 )

[addicted to snow]

I'm looking at the moon cycles for Bran first and he's been down there about 3mths by his perception of time in the cave.I get the sense that time outside moved faster which is a problem to sync especially when he made note of the Moon while he was hunting in Summer outside. I made note of about 3 Dark Moons,2 Full Moons,Waxing and waning moons that fell all weird.Again it is clear Bran's perception of time is not the same outside.

" The moon was a black hole in the sky.Outside the cave the world went on.Outside the cave the sun rose and set,the moon turned,the cold winds howled".

I must admit It is ambiguous ATS when they started eating the meat,though the last thing Bran mention was a Full Moon he said they were eating that meat nearly everyday now,but it's unclear where they are getting it from or any mention of anyone going out to hunt given the status outside the caves with the Wights and the crazy weather surrounding them .So

1. There is another entrance exit by which they are going out,or food is being put in the caves for them

2. Note the goat is still alive,they got cheese and dried fruit.

The alternate entrance to the cave is at the bottom of a sink-hole… tho makes me think that you can go in this way, but you cannot go out this way...

I expect that the CotF kill & eat whatever happens to stray into the sink-hole & sooner or later a POV will stumble upon this back-door, otherwise, what would be the point of GRRM mentioning it...

--

I don't think there is anything unique going on with regards to time in the cave… In both bran & arya's ADWD chapters, GRRM uses the same "moon technique" to let the reader know that these seemingly simultaneous events are actually occurring over the course of one or more month...