Jorah: Mildly Disturbing or Tragically Romantic?

[Kyoshi]

All the posts in this thread are very interesting. A lot of good points being made. However, I have to confess that I agree with the side that says creepy. Beyond that, the side that says it's complicated has merit, IMHO. Those who state there is nothing jarring or remotely eye-widening about the situation...well, I don't even know what to say...and I mean no offence. Only that I simply can't comprehend how one can look at this situation and walk away with "Oh well, these things happen."

[Dornish Vinegar]

She plain doesn't want anyone that isn't super attractive in her own eyes, regardless of if they are a raper, or a murderer, or a liar. Soooo, I'll just hate Dany for being Dany when, of all the suitors she's faced, she's only chosen the worst ones because they were 'not ugly'.

Can you, like, expand on this a little bit? I'm legit interested in this line of reasoning.

[ForgottenKnight]

I agree that a lot of good points have been made on this thread. Its nice to see people articulate their reasons in a civil internet debate. (rare imo)

[Reek Havoc]

I also don't think Jorah is a pedo. I don't think his attraction to Dany has anything to do with her age. I think it is despite her age, which is the thing that messes with the voices in my head.

For the record, the majority of my post wasn't aimed at you, I promise! I simply quoted yours because you had the wisdom to discern that this was a hard conversation to have without the pedo debate. From that point, I just kinda got on my soapbox. ;) The post was directed towards those that are under the impression that the term "pedophile" is subject to interpretation - it's actually a textbook defined mental illness, and not a matter of opinion.

[LordStoneheart]

He's both, and master loves him best

[Pod The Impaler]

I think I had a post here yesterday that got nuked. :frown5:

To the basic OP:

I don't think it is just lust Jorah feels for Dany, nor is it "creepy" I define it as sort of sad or tragic, in that Jorah actually feels love for someone who does not love him.

Jorah's wife was only superficially similar to Dany (blonde, good looking, regal), but in terms of personality they are nothing alike. Lynesse's personality is better told by others besides Jorah himself, and those tales portray a woman who was somewhat snobby, materialistic, and emotionally insincere. One might even call her cold-blooded. Dany on the other hand is quite fiery, idealistic, loyal, passionate, and when angered, wrathful.

The idea Jorah thinks of Dany as a Lynesse replacement seems off target to me. I think Jorah may have seen in Dany all the things he considered to be lacking in Lynesse, and maybe that what was attracted him to her. Jorah never knew Dany until she was another man's wife, and in that context he saw her blossom from a girl into a worthy woman, a worthy queen. If he had any bitter feelings about her being Drogo's loving wife, he had ample opportunity to act on them earlier (especially given that he was sent to her side as an enemy), but I think his mind changed about his spy mission simply because he saw a person who was worth giving up a pardon for. Once she was widowed, Jorah did not stop thinking of Dany as his queen, even if no others considered her one. That's because "queen" in his head does not mean crown & royal power, but rather "Queen of Love And Beauty".

That's Jorah's nature - he becomes utterly devoted, gives 100% of himself. He threw himself into taking care of Lynesse, to the point of beggaring himself and ending up exiled in a futile attempt to please her with material things. With Dany, I think by then he was more cynical of a warrior, but not more cynical as it pertained to love and his role in it - she was not one in love with material things, but once again we see Jorah willing to do anything for her.

Whatever else Jorah is, he's not the sort of man to view Dany as someone to use - if anything, he is the opposite: unable to shake his loyalty to his idealized mate. He cannot switch it off at will. He makes an internal oath to himself, and his honour depends on not being an oathbreaker. With Lynesse, she was false but his devotion had been maintained; he had sacrificed every other thing for her, so he kept his honour. With Dany, the crisis came when he believed she doubted his devotion, and that was like being falsely accused of treason - not treason of the state, but of the heart.

Sacrificing all of himself is something he is okay with, unless it is all for nothing. He just wants to be appreciated by his ideal mate, to prove his quality. (And yeah, the Boromir parallel did occur to me as I said that.)

I think he's going to try some sort of seppuku, to prove his devotion to her at the cost of his own life, thus salvaging his honour. As such, it is "romantic", but not in the nice happy way; more like the "her tears over his grave" way.

(To me, "creepy" is something else - Joffrey, Cersei, Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger, and Daario. Users.)

[Kyoshi]

She plain doesn't want anyone that isn't super attractive in her own eyes, regardless of if they are a raper, or a murderer, or a liar. Soooo, I'll just hate Dany for being Dany when, of all the suitors she's faced, she's only chosen the worst ones because they were 'not ugly'.

I hadn't seen this before. I hadn't seen...

[LordStoneheart]

I fail to see how Daario is any worse than Jorah morally, since they were both, ya know, sellswords at one point.

[Kyoshi]

For the record, the majority of my post wasn't aimed at you, I promise! I simply quoted yours because you had the wisdom to discern that this was a hard conversation to have without the pedo debate. From that point, I just kinda got on my soapbox. ;) The post was directed towards those that are under the impression that the term "pedophile" is subject to interpretation - it's actually a textbook defined mental illness, and not a matter of opinion.

That's cool :cool4:

I think I had a post here yesterday that got nuked. :frown5:

To the basic OP:

I don't think it is just lust Jorah feels for Dany, nor is it "creepy" I define it as sort of sad or tragic, in that Jorah actually feels love for someone who does not love him.

Jorah's wife was only superficially similar to Dany (blonde, good looking, regal), but in terms of personality they are nothing alike. Lynesse's personality is better told by others besides Jorah himself, and those tales portray a woman who was somewhat snobby, materialistic, and emotionally insincere. One might even call her cold-blooded. Dany on the other hand is quite fiery, idealistic, loyal, passionate, and when angered, wrathful.

The idea Jorah thinks of Dany as a Lynesse replacement seems off target to me. I think Jorah may have seen in Dany all the things he considered to be lacking in Lynesse, and maybe that what was attracted him to her. Jorah never knew Dany until she was another man's wife, and in that context he saw her blossom from a girl into a worthy woman, a worthy queen. If he had any bitter feelings about her being Drogo's loving wife, he had ample opportunity to act on them earlier (especially given that he was sent to her side as an enemy), but I think his mind changed about his spy mission simply because he saw a person who was worth giving up a pardon for. Once she was widowed, Jorah did not stop thinking of Dany as his queen, even if no others considered her one. That's because "queen" in his head does not mean crown & royal power, but rather "Queen of Love And Beauty".

I'd never thought of that. Now I have something else to ponder.

[Kyoshi]

I fail to see how Daario is any worse than Jorah morally, since they were both, ya know, sellswords at one point.

I think Dany noted that somewhere. Something along the lines "were you not a sellsword before you pledged your sword to my brother?"

[Kyoshi]

Perhaps this is off-topic but is it really necessary to see Dany choose/marry a 'non-ugly' lover/husband? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind hating Dany because she's Dany and her lovers/husbands are non-ugly. I don't have the energy for another thread though.

This may help me understand why people hate her because of her "personality". I've seen it in a lot of comments but people don't even bother to explain this 'personality' they despise so much. To me it just seems like a fashionable thing, like hating a Kardashian because they are a Kardashian and you don't really need a reason. I apologise because this is off-topic.

[jon rhaegar stark]

I think Dany noted that somewhere. Something along the lines "were you not a sellsword before you pledged your sword to my brother?"

its from the show where they speak about her relationship with Daario

Perhaps this is off-topic but is it really necessary to see Dany choose/marry a 'non-ugly' lover/husband? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind hating Dany because she's Dany and her lovers/husbands are non-ugly. I don't have the energy for another thread though.

This may help me understand why people hate her because of her "personality". I've seen it in a lot of comments but people don't even bother to explain this 'personality' they despise so much. To me it just seems like a fashionable thing, like hating a Kardashian because they are a Kardashian and you don't really need a reason. I apologise because this is off-topic.

she chose only one lover of her free will and that is Daario....she accepted Drogo and come to love him after some time she spent with him and i dont think drogo is mentioned as non ugly person and she was literally terrified of him at first

and she chose hizdar for her people and there was no mention that he is so cute and fair she loves him because of that...infact there is no mention she loves him at all she shows only duty as a wife

if someone loves you then should you love him the same way he does ...danny loves Jorah but not the way jorah wants and Quentyn came late and she doesnt mock him either

Quentyn himself notes that she never mocked him and was fair to him ...but people here in this forum will say that she did that...so yeah its just the hate towards danny because she is Daenarys

[LordStoneheart]

I don't think it needs another thread. I'm just pointing out that Jorah and Daario both are not very upstanding people, but it's wrong to demonize Dany for choosing the one she is attracted to. Does it make her shallow? No, I'd say it makes her human. Hard as it is to promote or support, people aren't always searching for "inner beauty." Sometimes they want that handsome devil that might not be the best choice.

[Pod The Impaler]

Perhaps this is off-topic but is it really necessary to see Dany choose/marry a 'non-ugly' lover/husband? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind hating Dany because she's Dany and her lovers/husbands are non-ugly. I don't have the energy for another thread though.

This may help me understand why people hate her because of her "personality". I've seen it in a lot of comments but people don't even bother to explain this 'personality' they despise so much. To me it just seems like a fashionable thing, like hating a Kardashian because they are a Kardashian and you don't really need a reason. I apologise because this is off-topic.

I don't hate Dany. I'm a Dany fan. And as a Dany fan, I would like to see her end up with a non-douchebag. Doesn't have to be Jorah, just someone who's not a sleazy treacherous POS.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think Dany noted that somewhere. Something along the lines "were you not a sellsword before you pledged your sword to my brother?"

Well, Jorah's case is different. Jorah was a Lord exiled, and the best job an exiled lord can find in Esos is being a sellsword. It's the closest thing to get back some honour and glory they can do and considering their education and training, they can climb very high in ranks. Besides Jorah, I can only think of Connington and Oberyn. No one actually puts them down for have being sellswords because they are first Westerosi knights with everything that implies. And in the case of Jorah and Connington, unlike Oberyn, they're trying to make the best of their situations. Daario is different because he has always had that life, by choice and he has a different set of morals, which he has shown contradict Westerosi norms. That doesn't make him a bad person, but definitely makes a point for Jorah not trusting him.

Perhaps this is off-topic but is it really necessary to see Dany choose/marry a 'non-ugly' lover/husband? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind hating Dany because she's Dany and her lovers/husbands are non-ugly. I don't have the energy for another thread though.

This may help me understand why people hate her because of her "personality". I've seen it in a lot of comments but people don't even bother to explain this 'personality' they despise so much. To me it just seems like a fashionable thing, like hating a Kardashian because they are a Kardashian and you don't really need a reason. I apologise because this is off-topic.

This reminded me of an (allegedly) quote by Elizabeth Taylor: "I might have slept with seven man, but I married each".

Dany so far has only had three men in her life and two of them were due to duty. Yes, she ended up loving Drogo, but marrying him wasn't her choice. And she married Hizdar because she wanted peace, which he brought. Let's simply said that Dany never actually had much of a choice in having sexual partners until she met Daario and she felt attracted to him. Her relationship with her is probably something many people don't like but it was harmless because she had no marriage agreement with anybody else and unlike many other women in this story, she completely reigned over her own decisions.

Some others don't like this part of her plot because she's swooning about him, which it's something other characters like Tyrion (Shae), Jaime (Cersei) and Jon (Ygritte) do at least once in their chapters, and even get to the point of being annoying as well.

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. All great. JCRB, I also never understood why the swooning was acceptable with other characters but not with Dany. That's why I say it seems like a fashionable "let's hate the Kardashians for being Kardashians and we can attach flimsy reasons later" thing.

And as some of you state, Dany has had 3 men in her life. I don't even see how that provides enough sample points to conclusively come to the statement that she is 'shallow'. Another Kardashian line of reasoning in my humble opinion.

[Reek Havoc]

Perhaps this is off-topic but is it really necessary to see Dany choose/marry a 'non-ugly' lover/husband? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind hating Dany because she's Dany and her lovers/husbands are non-ugly. I don't have the energy for another thread though.

This may help me understand why people hate her because of her "personality". I've seen it in a lot of comments but people don't even bother to explain this 'personality' they despise so much. To me it just seems like a fashionable thing, like hating a Kardashian because they are a Kardashian and you don't really need a reason. I apologise because this is off-topic.

Well, yes, but much like the Kardashians, when it comes Dany, there's just so much ammo available!! lol

Nah, but seriously. Dany, for me, is difficult. Some days I like her, some days I'm neutral, and some days I want to reach through the book and smack her around a little. It's true, there have been three men in her life, and two of those where not her choice.... but when the girl finally does get a chance to choose for herself, she chooses the biggest douche bag around?! Really? Its Daario's personality that makes Dany seems shallow. (Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Maybe she just has horrible taste in men. My mother always used to say, some girls should have arranged marriages. lol) It's natural inclination to want to be with someone you're physically attracted to. But unless the relationship is shallow and about only looks, it's also natural for that attraction to start to go away once you begin realizing what an incredible scumbag you have on your hands. I read Daario and think, "what the hell does she see in this guy?" This is the kind of thing that makes someone think of Dany as shallow. I've done it a few times myself.

[Tregar Ormollen]

On the one hand people defend Dany's choice of paramour by saying, the heart wants what it wants. Why doesn't Jorah get the same allowance. The guy took a shot and got friendzoned, no biggie. He's also been criticised for gazing at her bare breast. I mean come on, if a beautiful woman exposes her teat, it's the height of bad manners not to sneak a peak.

At the end of the day the big bear's a romantic in the body of a beast. It's not his fault I stole his love away and took her for mine own concubine

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Remember what Barristan had to say (or think rather) about Dany rejecting Quentyn's marriage proposal? It's the difference between fire and mud. "And fools and young girls will choose fire every time."

We're talking about a 15 year old here. A very mature 15 year old, but she is young and she's thinking to some extent with her hormones.

Let's have a show of hands...how many of us, at the age of 15, would have chosen Jorah over Daario (or for the other half of the world let's say Lollys over Ashara)? I don't see any hands. You could argue that it's because this is over the internet, but I'm betting there aren't a lot of people who can say that the younger version of themselves wouldn't have chosen the hottie.

This youthful propensity to prefer the dazzling is not a permanent affliction. It doesn't make her irredeemably superficial. Give the girl some time. When she's older and wiser, she will see the value of mud.

[BearQueen87]

I have been debating myself for a few days now about whether or not I would enter this thread. When it comes to Jorah (and when it comes to Jorah/Dany) I tend to become a crazed she-bear (it's a fault...but hey, I'm open about it. First step if admitting you have a problem).

I have a problem with the actual title of the thread first and foremost. Creepy and romantic are subjective terms that I have a hard time defining. I also do not believe that if you not one, then you are the other. If you're not creepy then you're romantic, if you're not romantic then you are creepy. It appears to be a false paradigm, if you ask me.

Jorah is simply Jorah. He is ruthlessly pragmatic, he can be condescending, he can be rude, and mistrustful the a fault; he is arrogant and haughty and he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He can be violent when provoked. He is also brave, kind, smart, truthful in some areas, and loyal. He loves deeply as evidenced by his second wife and Dany. He has shown on many occasions that he can be a better knight than some of the Kingsguard back in KL (he point blank refuses to hurt Dany when Viserys, the king he has sworn his sword to, orders him)

I am familiar with the various criticisms of Jorah. I want to speak a little about them.

First: Dany's age vs Jorah's age.

There is a difference in the status of womanhood in Westeros vs our own. By the time Jorah and Dany start interacting for real in aGoT, Dany is flowered, wedded, and bedded. She's a woman by Westerosi standards. In Westeros, when a girl flowers she is a maiden and is able to be taken to bed. If a man marries a woman before she flowers, it is considered perverse to bed her until after she flowers. We have to put ourselves in Westorsi standards, not the 21st c. ones.

If Jorah and Dany were of equal status, a match could have been made without any other thought, so long as it was politically feasible. Jorah is not a pedophile, because Dany is a woman according to the culture in which she and he live. A young woman, i grant, but this is no different than Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully, where there was a great age difference.

Second: Jorah is Ugly

Homeliness doesn't mean a damn thing to me. So he's not handsome. Good! We have tons of pretty boys. And if he was handsome then the courtly love trope would be too cliche for GRRM. His not-so-handsome exterior belies that he is more knightly toward the woman he swore his sword to than those who are handsome and wear pretty clothing. This is not the Regal Queen and her handsome dashing knight in gilded armor declaring his love with songs and poetry. His love for Dany is born out of watching Dany become a Queen, claim a people, loose a husband, walk into a fire, "birth dragons, and survive the Red Waste. Their courtly love is a different animal.

Third: Jorah only desires Dany because of his second wife, Lynesse

Dany and Lynesse's personalities are not alike. They resemble each other in looks, but there the similiarites end. And Jorah is more devoted to Dany than he was for Lynesse. His love for Dany runs deeper and something more than it was for his wife. Consider the following:

From aGoT, Dany's final chapter

I understand that you loved him," Ser Jorah said in a voice thick with despair, "I loved my lady wife once, yet I did not die with her."

Followed moments later by:

"I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."

When Jorah returns to Lynesse after finding work as a sellsword, he finds her with another man. He is depressed and it hurts but he leaves. He doesn't fight for her. When Jorah is released from Dany's service, he doesn't go seeking his pardon. He doesn't GO HOME (big clue); he doesn't even take Tyrion back to Westeros to obtain a pardon and his lordship back. He goes back to Dany. And in Volantis he tells the Whore/Crone that all he wants is to serve Dany, to die for her if need be.

Number Four: Dany does not desire Jorah

My favorite one. I want to state upfront that my reading of Dany and Jorah (which I have done way too many times) is colored by the fact that I love them both dearly. I recognize that not everyone will see what I see.

I disagree that Dany is flat out NOT attracted to Jorah. I think she's very conflicted about him and her own emotions towards him. Their kiss (which YES he should NOT have forced upon her) is described as sweet and very long; her body responds to it; she is more upset that Jorah sees her as a woman as well as a Queen, not that he kissed her. Later she remarks that she doesn't know if she wants to yell at him, hit him or kiss him because she doesn't know which is wrong, right or crazy. She jokes, internally, about marrying him. After his banishment, she begins to look for the house with the red door, searching for her concept of home, which is also gone with Jorah. She can't read the books he gave her on her wedding day because they remind her of him. Of the men she has bedded, it's Jorah who comes to her in a vision on the Dothraki Sea to remind her who she is. Even though he's not there, she wishes she could turn around and hug him and press her face to his chest and she thinks about how much she's missed his voice. When she falls moments later, she wishes "her bear" were there to pick up her in his arms. He does have a bit of a thuggish nature to him, but Dany does seem to find that appealing (Drogo, Daario) and to each their own. How she feels about Jorah is in conflict over how she views herself--is she still a girl (which is what she often calls herself with Dario), a Queen (which is what she must be with Hizdhar) or is she a woman (which is how Jorah feels about her).

And finally, Jorah's redemption. Beaten, caged, branded, enslaved.Tyrion remarks in ADWD

One whispered word had done what fists and whips and clubs could not; it had broken him [Jorah]."

Jorah has tasted his humble pie. I expect that when he meets Dany again, he'll bed forgiveness, which is what he should have done in ASOS. When Tyrion, Penny and Jorah meet BBP to sell their swords into his service, Ben asks is Jorah is still high and mighty and if they need to still call him "ser." Jorah replies that so long as Ben gives him a weapon, they can call him whatever they like, indicating IMO, that he recognizes that not all his actions haven't knightly; and when reminded that Dany sent him away, "I came back. Call me a fool." He'll come back before Dany in mismatched armor, branded, having helped turn the Second Sons, and knowing that he had to pay for his sins.

So my final verdict in the creeper vs romance question? Neither. He's just another nuanced, complicated, interesting character that has faults and good qualities.