Jorah: Mildly Disturbing or Tragically Romantic?

[Hodor's Dragon]

It's not really creepy or romantic. It's just a sad thing. He's in love with her, and can't have her, but he's generally handling it like a big boy, and she's handling it like a big girl. They still worked together fine until she found out about the spying. Kudos to 'em both for that because not everybody has that ability.

As for creepy because she's too young? Please. This is Danaerys Stormborn here, yadda of yadda yadda. She's no blushing child. She's a conqueror, a killer and a lover; it was her taking control in the sack that got Drogo to fall in love with her, and she is clearly fully capable of deciding who does and does not make it into her bed. Nobody is taking advantage of Daenerys Targaryen; that's a dangerous road to travel.

[TheMysteriousOne]

The difference between creepy and romantic is whether or not the other party reciprocates.

No, not really.

[l2 0 5 5]

Neither. He has a crush on a girl that doesn't feel the same way. He makes a couple moves and is denied. It's not like he was hiding under her mattress and decided to jump out the moment she took her clothes off.

[RavenKing23]

Why not both?

[koke]

Agree with those who think is neither. I don't find him creepy and I think that he actually respected her. I mean... he kissed her, told her how he felt about her. She then,makes clear she didin't reciprocrate his feelings in that way and he never ever tried anything again or bring it up. How is that creepy? and what's creepy about their kiss exactly? She likes it but thinks it was inappropiate but not creepy.. so that's ok with me.

And about Jorah having a type and Dany looking like Lynesse... I'm not even sure that's the case. The only thing Jorah says about it is:

“What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?”

Ser Jorah smiled sadly. “Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys.”

Telling her that the person he loved looked "A bit like you" for me is a way of letting her know that he really likes her. It may be the eyes, the hair or just that both of those woman are beautiful to him, but doesn't have to mean that Jorah sees Lynesse in Dany or that they are really that similar in looks... By the way, he says this when she is bald, doesn't he?

[Zared]

Yes he has fallen in love with her but it's still creepy that he then goes and has sex with a girl that looks like her.

[l3ol3o]

I don't think it's either creep or Romantic.

Dany is supposedly the "Most beautiful woman in the world". She is arguably the most powerful women in the world.

I think it would be strange for a single heterosexual man to NOT desire her.

If you win her heart you can become a King yourself and your kids Prince and Princesses. It doesn't get much better. She is pretty much the total package.

Yes he has fallen in love with her but it's still creepy that he then goes and has sex with a girl that looks like her.

What is creepy about that? He is obviously attracted to women with a certain type of look. He just likes a certain "type". Some like Blondes, some like redheads, some skinny, some fat. Nothing creepy about being attracted to a certain type of person.

[Roxy Carmichael]

What people forget is that Jorah and Dany have been through a lot together. He's witnessed her dragons being born, he's wandered the desert and nearly died with her, he's seen how intelligent, powerful and beautiful she's become - it's perfectly understandable that he's fallen in love with her.

Not to mention that Dany doesn't exactly keep a professional distance between herself and the staff. She touches and kisses both Jorah and Barristan several times. She has one of her maids finger bang her. When that is how you behave around somebody you can't get too upset when they make a move.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

Romantic, no question.

[Kyoshi]

Not to mention that Dany doesn't exactly keep a professional distance between herself and the staff. She touches and kisses both Jorah and Barristan several times. She has one of her maids finger bang her. When that is how you behave around somebody you can't get too upset when they make a move.

Actually you can get too upset. Prior "friendly" behaviour does not exempt any future "assaults" on the person being "friendly". I'll make an extreme example with rape: just because you smiled at him once and touched his shoulder does not mean you will consent to sleeping with him in the future. I only state this as an example, not to say that's where you were going with your argument but I've seen lines like that used in rape cases.

I must say that one of the things I find most disturbing is that people are willing to excuse any sort of questionable behaviour simply because of the setting of the book. One just has to say "but it's Westeros and these things are done so it is fine." I know the age thing seems like a weak point, but it's not. Yes you might compare her to Sansa and say "hey, Sansa was still dreaming of gallant knights when Dany was burying husbands and sacking cities." However true that may be, it does not erase the fact that Dany is still a child. The same way that even after all her killings and Faceless Man training, Arya is still a child. The same way that even when fighting the War of the Five Kings, Catelyn notes that Robb is still just a boy. Age matters.

It is important in her life to experience every step of growth. She skipped several steps yes and has to adapt and survive to a harsh environment. But when all is said and done, she may still look like a child, and even act like one as Barristan has observed. The fact that she has had a husband forced on her at a very early age does not in any way make her a woman. If anything, it makes her life that much more tragic. Jorah's feelings, IMHO, would have been more acceptable if he felt something fatherly, not romantic.

And to say that he could not help but fall in love with her because she was said to be the most beautiful woman in the world is just lazy. Barristan sees her beauty, acknowledges it in his thoughts, but he does not start kissing her. By saying Jorah could not control himself after witnessing her beauty means it should have been easy for him to fall in love with any woman said to posses any kind of beauty, you know, given that he has such limited self control.

Also, Jorah is three times her age I think, grandfather old.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dany's no child. She's already seen more than most people see in their lifetimes - and kicked its butt. She doesn't need to be protected from her decisions. Let her go ahead and live the adult life she has so richly earned while she has a chance to live it. After all, she's likely to be dead by the time she's 20 whether she gets politely hit on by a 50-year-old or not.

[7th-key]

Creepy. You're not her type - move on!

[Kyoshi]

^I agree. It gets pathetic by the 5th book.

[JonisHenryTudor]

From a Medieval perspective, that is normal. From a contemporary perspective, call the FBI.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Actually you can get too upset. Prior "friendly" behaviour does not exempt any future "assaults" on the person being "friendly". I'll make an extreme example with rape: just because you smiled at him once and touched his shoulder does not mean you will consent to sleeping with him in the future. I only state this as an example, not to say that's where you were going with your argument but I've seen lines like that used in rape cases.

I must say that one of the things I find most disturbing is that people are willing to excuse any sort of questionable behaviour simply because of the setting of the book. One just has to say "but it's Westeros and these things are done so it is fine." I know the age thing seems like a weak point, but it's not. Yes you might compare her to Sansa and say "hey, Sansa was still dreaming of gallant knights when Dany was burying husbands and sacking cities." However true that may be, it does not erase the fact that Dany is still a child. The same way that even after all her killings and Faceless Man training, Arya is still a child. The same way that even when fighting the War of the Five Kings, Catelyn notes that Robb is still just a boy. Age matters.

It is important in her life to experience every step of growth. She skipped several steps yes and has to adapt and survive to a harsh environment. But when all is said and done, she may still look like a child, and even act like one as Barristan has observed. The fact that she has had a husband forced on her at a very early age does not in any way make her a woman. If anything, it makes her life that much more tragic. Jorah's feelings, IMHO, would have been more acceptable if he felt something fatherly, not romantic.

And to say that he could not help but fall in love with her because she was said to be the most beautiful woman in the world is just lazy. Barristan sees her beauty, acknowledges it in his thoughts, but he does not start kissing her. By saying Jorah could not control himself after witnessing her beauty means it should have been easy for him to fall in love with any woman said to posses any kind of beauty, you know, given that he has such limited self control.

Also, Jorah is three times her age I think, grandfather old.

Again in the Medieval world, she would be considered a woman, not a child. It isn't about excusing questionable behavior as much as it is acknowledging that it is a medieval practice. Inserting modern world views into another era never works. It is questionable to you, because we live in a different society. It doesn't mean that it was questionable then. The same goes for arranged marriages. It was accepted as normal then, and it needs to be understood by their standards, not ours. If Jorah were to marry her, the relationship would disgust people now (maybe not all); but her contemporaries (fictional or non-fic) would not give it a second thought.

[Kyoshi]

Again in the Medieval world, she would be considered a woman, not a child. It isn't about excusing questionable behavior as much as it is acknowledging that it is a medieval practice. Inserting modern world views into another era never works. It is questionable to you, because we live in a different society. It doesn't mean that it was questionable then. The same goes for arranged marriages. It was accepted as normal then, and it needs to be understood by their standards, not ours. If Jorah were to marry her, the relationship would disgust people now (maybe not all); but her contemporaries (fictional or non-fic) would not give it a second thought.

This I understand. Stating its validity in the context is acceptable. However, ignoring its questionable and perhaps primitive and unfair/disgusting nature is another thing. That is the point I am trying to make. I accept that by all the laws of Westeros Lysa, Dany, Cersei, Catelyn, others were not experiencing anything out of the ordinary when they were shipped off to their husbands and/or perved on by much older men. I am simply saying that given the somewhat progressive evolution of our societal system, should we not look upon these situations with disgust, for lack of a better word?

I am saying that sitting here now in this modern world, I can say without wavering that I do not want a man old enough to be Dany's grandfather to have sexual feelings about her. Normal as it may be in their world, it is not a thing that should be normal and therefore it is not a relationship I condone. If she should choose to enter this relationship with him, then that is another matter completely.

[LordStoneheart]

I will always look on them with some sense of disgust because of the culture I grew up in, but for most of those situations I can put it in context to an extent. It's a mix of both modern standards and fictional medieval standards. It's never one or the other for everything.

[Kyoshi]

I will always look on them with some sense of disgust because of the culture I grew up in, but for most of those situations I can put it in context to an extent. It's a mix of both modern standards and fictional medieval standards. It's never one or the other for everything.

That also makes sense I suppose. But it becomes tricky, with lines to be drawn and such.

[Danelle]

He kisses Dany in SOS.

“Oh,” was all Dany had time to say as he pulled her close and pressed his lips down on hers. He smelled of sweat and salt and leather, and the iron studs on his jerkin dug into her naked breasts as he crushed her hard against him. One hand held her by the shoulder while the other slid down her spine to the small of her back, and her mouth opened for his tongue, though she never told it to. His beard is scratchy, she thought, but his mouth is sweet. The Dothraki wore no beards, only long mustaches, and only Khal Drogo had ever kissed her before. He should not be doing this. I am his queen, not his woman.

Dany didn't expect the kiss.

Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her.

'I… that was not fitting. I am your queen.”

“My queen,” he said, “and the bravest, sweetest, and most beautiful woman I have ever seen. Daenerys—”

Jorah can easily dismiss the fact that Dany is his queen, not his lover.

“Your Grace,” he conceded, “the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here’s your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders.”

“Yes,” said Dany, “but my brothers are dead.”

“Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon’s wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me.”

I believe that it was at this point when I realised that he loved Dany, because only people in love can say so stupid things.

Jorah's romantic life is interesting.

His first wife, an unnamed Glover lady, died. Jorah told Dany that he had affairs with women from Bear Island, and I wonder whether he practised the Lord's Right. After all, in some parts in the North, the Lord's Right is still practised.

Untill he met Lynesse, he felt that women had to do their duty and please him.

With Lynesse it was different, because for once, it was him who had to prove worthy of her, and it was him who had to satisfy her needs.

And he so he did, to the extent that he broke laws and had to abandon his land and bring shame to his House and worst, to his father.

Even though Lynesse abandoned him eventually, he still tried to find a way to return back home, and that's how he became a spy for Varys.

Dany was a conundrum for Jorah.

For the first time in his life he loved but was not loved back, or to be more precise, the love that Dany felt for him was a mix of gratitude, admiration and to a way a combination of fatherly and brotherly love.

When Lady Glover married him, he offered her the privilege of being the wife of the Lord of Bear Island.

When Lynesse married him, he provided her with the luxuries she desired.

The women in Bear Island, had no other option that to obey him.

Until he met Dany, his personal life was very simple. He gives something to the women and in return they become his lovers.

Dany never expressed such desire for him.

The worst part with Jorah is that he can never really understand why Dany doesn't want him.

“I never meant… forgive me. You have to forgive me.”

“Have to?” It was too late. He should have begun by begging forgiveness. She could not pardon him as she’d intended. She had dragged the wineseller behind her horse until there was nothing left of him. Didn’t the man who brought him deserve the same? This is Jorah, my fierce bear, the right arm that never failed me. I would be dead without him, but…

“I can’t forgive you,” she said. “I can’t.”

“You forgave the old man…” “He lied to me about his name. You sold my secrets to the men who killed my father and stole my brother’s throne.”

“I protected you. I fought for you. Killed for you.”

Kissed me, she thought, betrayed me.

“I went down into the sewers like a rat. For you.” It might have been kinder if you’d died there. Dany said nothing. There was nothing to say.

“Daenerys,” he said, “I have loved you.”

And then the following conversation takes place between Jorah and the Widow

Why would you seek Daenerys Targaryen, whom half the world wants dead?"

Jorah Mormont's face was dark with anger, but he answered. "To serve her. Defend her. Die for her, if need be."

That made the widow laugh. "You want to rescue her, is that the way of it? From more enemies than I can name, with swords beyond count … this is what you'd have the poor widow believe? That you are a true and chivalrous Westerosi knight crossing half the world to come to the aid of this … well, she is no maiden, though she may still be fair." She laughed again.

"Do you think your dwarf will please her? Will she bathe in his blood, do you think, or content herself with striking off his head?"

Ser Jorah hesitated. "The dwarf is—"

To please Lynesse he bought her valuable goods. To please Dany, he brought her Tyrion, in a vain attempt to gain her trust..

Unrequited love is never easy.

[Witch]

Creepy, even by Westeros standards. Guy's obsessed.