another Malaysian Airlines flight story...

[DanteGabriel]

It's not incorrect as the US is a part of NATO they would be aware of the separatists having possession of the SA-11's and they have stated that they were unaware of that fact. They have also stated that they have no direct proof that the missiles actually came from Russia. They also stated that they do not know for certain who fired the missile nor whether any Russian personnel were present. They are not certain that the missile crew were trained in Russia. They also said they cannot verify as authentic all of the video and social media postings that Ukraine has been putting forth as evidence, even though this is what they are using to paint a picture of what happened. They say they have satellite imagery that supports this but they haven't released it as of yet.

This is all from US intelligence officials. This was reported by the Boston Herald among others.

Perhaps those officials are lying.

Then same officials were either lying (about what they knew about the separatists' capabilities) or are now being very precise (when saying they have no DIRECT EVIDENCE of stuff that most of us have accepted as logical and likely).

The fact remains, you said no one knew they had that capability, and the NATO briefing makes that statement incorrect. Unless you're saying the NATO briefing didn't actually happen?

[Shryke]

Or maybe you are mixing up timelines here?

Cause Kerry said this:

Mr Kerry said the US had seen major military supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers.

Intercepted calls suggested a Russian SA-11 missile system - also known as BUK - had been transferred to the rebels, Mr Kerry said, and the US had seen a video of a launcher being moved back into Russia after flight MH17 crashed.

"There's [an] enormous amount of evidence that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Mr Kerry said on a US TV network.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28396862

As of 2 days ago.

So I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that they are saying they don't know.

It seems pretty clear the US and others are saying exactly what they think happened based on the evidence they have.

[snake]

Then same officials were either lying (about what they knew about the separatists' capabilities) or are now being very precise (when saying they have no DIRECT EVIDENCE of stuff that most of us have accepted as logical and likely).

The fact remains, you said no one knew they had that capability, and the NATO briefing makes that statement incorrect. Unless you're saying the NATO briefing didn't actually happen?

I'm saying US officials stated they did not know the separatists had SA-11's until they allegedly shot down the Malaysian flight. I guess NATO forgot to tell the US.

ETA:

It's written in the Boston Herald article and reported elsewhere. It's a very simple and straightforward statement that is pretty hard to misinterpret.

[DanteGabriel]

I'm saying US officials stated they did not know the separatists had SA-11's until they allegedly shot down the Malaysian flight. I guess NATO forgot to tell the US.

Okay, so you didn't say what you said. That post where you said "no one knew" was just a figment of my imagination. Got it.

Look, I understand you have identified an inconsistency in what US officials have been saying about this. Bully for you. Just own up to overstating your case before, or someone may start to question your credibility.

[snake]

Or maybe you are mixing up timelines here?

Cause Kerry said this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28396862

As of 2 days ago.

So I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that they are saying they don't know.

It seems pretty clear the US and others are saying exactly what they think happened based on the evidence they have.

As reported by the Boston Herald when pressed on the issue the US officials could not verify the authenticity of the video. Not that it would stop Mr. Kerry.

[snake]

Okay, so you didn't say what you said. That post where you said "no one knew" was just a figment of my imagination. Got it.

You got a link to that NATO briefing???

[DanteGabriel]

You got a link to that NATO briefing???

And NOW is when you ask for verification of that NATO briefing? This is pathetic.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/07/nato-general-warned-of-russian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/

Come on then -- did anyone know the separatists had the capability to shoot down that plane before it happened?

ETA: That one line you are fixating on, at the end of the AP report, seems more like ass-covering for not warning civilian aviation authorities about the danger. It's not exactly the end-all be-all definitive statement that you are making it out to be and certainly does not, by itself, prove your "no one knew" statement.

[Shryke]

As reported by the Boston Herald when pressed on the issue the US officials could not verify the authenticity of the video. Not that it would stop Mr. Kerry.

Ok, firstly that's an AP report, not the Boston Herald.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/2014/07/us_russia_created_the_conditions_for_shoot_down

And second, the AP report says this:

The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.

And this:

Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.

So the same US officials you are quoting are saying the above as well. So what Kerry is saying is exactly what the other US officials are saying. You just have to read the whole report.

[Davos OnionKing]

DOK,

Are you saying the Seperatists shot at the fighters but hit the 777 by mistake? Wasn't it reckless to shoot at a fighter escorting a passenger aircraft, if in fact that is what occurred?

No more reckless than flying a airliner into a contested airspace in the middle of a civil war. Also, did you read the article alledging the Ukraine jet fighters were using airliners as human shields in their airspace? Maybe it's dis-info, wouldn't be a shock, but neither should it be the US or Ukraine pulling stunts to get international support behind Russian sanctions, and god forbid another war.

To clarify, I am not yet pointing blame, but there are in fact conflicting reports still. My initial reason for jumping into this discussion was the same as many others, to figure out what happened and whom was at fault.

If the name-calling and such continues I will probably just back-out before we get this thread locked down.

[snake]

And NOW is when you ask for verification of that NATO briefing? This is pathetic.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/07/nato-general-warned-of-russian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/

Come on then -- did anyone know the separatists had the capability to shoot down that plane before it happened?

This doesn't say they were in possession of SA-11's. This is the type of bullshit I've been talking about. Get your fucking facts straight before you start making a fool of yourself.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DOK,

What name calling?

[Horza]

At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles.

i.e., training on Russian systems in Russia hence no confirmation that rebels were in possession of their own vehicle-borne ADS.

[Shryke]

edit

[snake]

Ok, firstly that's an AP report, not the Boston Herald.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/2014/07/us_russia_created_the_conditions_for_shoot_down

And second, the AP report says this:

And this:

So the same US officials you are quoting are saying the above as well. So what Kerry is saying is exactly what the other US officials are saying. You just have to read the whole report.

Kerry was using the video as evidence when they couldn't authenticate it is what I said. I never said US officials didn't think the rebels shot down the plane.

[snake]

Uh, make you should get your facts straight? Or read the article?

What do you think that means?

As Horza said.

[Shryke]

Kerry was using the video as evidence when they couldn't authenticate it is what I said. I never said US officials didn't think the rebels shot down the plane.

They couldn't authenticate every video. They could authenticate many though. That's what the first quote is about.

Kerry is stating the same conclusion as the rest of the US officials.

[DanteGabriel]

This doesn't say they were in possession of SA-11's. This is the type of bullshit I've been talking about. Get your fucking facts straight before you start making a fool of yourself.

Get my fucking facts straight? Like the fucking NATO briefing I linked you that directly contradicts your fucking "no one knew" claim that you spun out of the last fucking line of an article while ignoring the whole fucking rest of the article?

[snake]

And after reading the ABC report I will go back to my statement that no one knew that the rebels had SA-11's in their possession, as US officials have clearly stated.

[DanteGabriel]

Edit: Never fucking mind.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Snake, Horza,

So, Russian advisers were training seperatists in the use of vehicle borne SAMs... because... they make great backscratchers?