TWOW "very unlikely" to be released in 2015 - Jane Johnson

[Roughspun]

Amusingly, GRRM recently grumped about flight delays, so he doesn't apparently mind judging others on their "work ethic," or blaming them for unreasonable delays. Funny how that works, LOL.

Yep, amusingly GRRM appears to hold himself to a work ethic. In his place, I might have retired to a gilded jacuzzi and dropped the whole aSoIaF project.

[protar]

I absolutely agree that Martin doesn't want them too. Look at his attitude about it following his April meetings. However, I am sure Martin told them when he sold the rights that he'd keep up. Then, last year, when it was apparent he couldn't, they demanded his outline and he gave it to them.

Al the time Martin has continued to travel and not write. How can you be angry at HBO for paying a man 15+ million dollars a year and wanting to tell his story? They owe it to their viewers to do just that. Martin owed it to his fans to not let them overtake his books. Martin failed to plan and failed to execute, and he let his fans down in the process. Why should HBO do the same when they're obviously capable of delivering in a timely fashion?

Your anger is very misplaced.

Most of Game of Throne's viewers don't even read the books. They won't even know the difference. That's why it's so ridiculous for them to keep charging forwards and spoil the books. They can still make millions whilst also keeping Martin and his fans happy.

My anger is not misplaced at all. It's ridiculous to mad at Martin because he couldn't foresee that the books wouldn't be done after a decade. It's not ridiculous to mad at D+D for not taking for an opportunity to fix things for no reason.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It's not ridiculous to mad at D+D for not taking for an opportunity to fix things for no reason.

It is most definitely ridiculous to expect D&D to fix things that Martin didn't. Again, it makes no sense to expect them to make a Hail Mary when Martin didn't.

[GERM]

Yep, amusingly GRRM appears to hold himself to a work ethic. In his place, I might have retired to a gilded jacuzzi and dropped the whole aSoIaF project.

I am sure he couldn't. I bet, in the language his language of his contract, they don't set a date for publishing, but they certainly address intent to finish. He has to appear to be making an effort.

Even publishers don't sign authors hoping they'll finish. They need some sort of guarantee that they intend too.

[sj4iy]

Awww come on. I really don't think Martin was motivated by money since he was approached by people before HBO and turned them down because he didn't think they would treat his baby right. He's been very indulgent with this story while D&D are the strict parents who are being disciplined here and he knows it. I don't think he thought it would be cancelled so whatever. I think he thought they'd be just as indulgent and meander along with him.

I didn't mean it as he was motivated by money. I meant that he might have thought that was his chance to make some extra money off of the books, whether the show failed or not. Sort of like how Tolkien sold the rights to LotR, thinking that it would never be made into movies because he didn't think it was filmable. Many writers who sell the rights to their books never see any movies made out of them. Think of Ender's Game...it was optioned a bunch of times before someone ever got around to making a movie about it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I didn't mean it as he was motivated by money. I meant that he might have thought that was his chance to make some extra money off of the books, whether the show failed or not. Sort of like how Tolkien sold the rights to LotR, thinking that it would never be made into movies because he didn't think it was filmable.

And I think while no one says no to money very often, he did hold out until he thought he'd found someone who would do his story justice. In fact, it's that belief and what you wrote about Tolkien - not thinking it's filmable - that convince me that he's happy with the job their doing just not happy that they're not taking as long as he is which is leading to significant cuts and edits to his story.

At least that would be more intellectually honest than professing his dedication while doing everything in his power to avoid writing the books. Pouring energy into unrelated projects, contriving clearly delusional suggestions to stall for time, coming up with self-imposed rules as to when and how one will work and then finding ways around those rules...all classic plays out of the procrastinator's handbook.

I don't think he's avoiding the story. I just think he is easily pulled into tangents. Remember he started writing the series because he wanted the freedom it brought vs the tight world of screenwriting. I think he's being honest to who he is when he sprawls and just expects everyone to sprawl with him if the like the story (and we have been!) and that he's not really avoiding anything.

[Roughspun]

LMFAO How does one cite the internet? source: https://www.everyfuckingthingyoureadonlineaboutgeorgerrmartin.com?

So you make claims like he worked 40 out of 205 work days this year and this is what you have to back it up?

Go read Not a Blog

That’s what I did when you started throwing around figures; from 1 January to 8 March not a single absence was mentioned there. I don’t intend to research this further; if you want to claim that he’s not working most of the time, I propose you cite the proof.

[Ran]

Lets keep it civil, folks.

[The Dragons Hand]

D&D really have their work cut out for them. They probably will need to hire another writer or two in order to turn out all new material on such a tight deadline.

They already hired five directors and are stepping away from said role themselves. G.R.R.M is doing this same, perhaps a hiatus wouldn't be amiss.

[The Dragons Hand]

Guess I'm going to have to find more stuff to fill the gap. Oh well, as long as it's good.

[sj4iy]

And I think while no one says no to money very often, he did hold out until he thought he'd found someone who would do his story justice. In fact, it's that belief and what you wrote about Tolkien - not thinking it's filmable - that convince me that he's happy with the job their doing just not happy that they're not taking as long as he is which is leading to significant cuts and edits to his story.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I think Martin is fine with the adaptation. I simply mused on whether or not he really gave much thought to the show outstripping his books since the tv show was never a sure thing in the first place. I meant no slight on Martin or the show, it was a simple question that passed my mind.

[protar]

It is most definitely ridiculous to expect D&D to fix things that Martin didn't. Again, it makes no sense to expect them to make a Hail Mary when Martin didn't.

Why is that ridiculous? Martin can't see the future. There was nothing at the time to indicate that he wouldn't have the books done on time. D+D on the other hand can quite clearly see what happens and assuming Martin doesn't want his books spoiled they have an option which keeps everyone happy. If they don't take that route then spoiling the show is their fault first and Martin's second.

[Colonel Green]

Why is that ridiculous? Martin can't see the future. There was nothing at the time to indicate that he wouldn't have the books done on time. D+D on the other hand can quite clearly see what happens and assuming Martin doesn't want his books spoiled they have an option which keeps everyone happy. If they don't take that route then spoiling the show is their fault first and Martin's second.

No, that's not their fault. They are not under any moral onus to throw away all the stuff they paid George R. R. Martin for and come up with their own ending just because Martin couldn't keep up the pace of his writing. And it's wrong to assume that any ending would be as good, since Martin structured this story to lead to a specific ending, which is the story that they have been telling as well to date.

[protar]

No, that's not their fault. They are not under any moral onus to throw away all the stuff they paid George R. R. Martin for and come up with their own ending just because Martin couldn't keep up the pace of his writing. And it's wrong to assume that any ending would be as good, since Martin structured this story to lead to a specific ending, which is the story that they have been telling as well to date.

If D+D aren't talented enough to come up with their own ending then that is also their fault.

It's really quite simple. There's a catastrophe coming in the future. Both Martin and D+D could do something about it. But Martin couldn't see the future a decade ago, how is he supposed to know that he needs to avert it? It's ridiculous to blame him. D+D can see what's coming. And they have an easy option to avert it. If they don't take that option, they then take the blame.

[Colonel Green]

If D+D aren't talented enough to come up with their own ending then that is also their fault.

It's not a question of talent (I don't think D&D are anywhere near GRRM's level, but that's not at issue here). Despite the fact that we all have been speculating endlessly about how the story ends, ASOIAF is in fact a saga geared toward a single ending, GRRM's ending. D&D have been telling that story to date, and they will continue to tell it. They are not responsible for GRRM or the book audience; that's solely his job.

But Martin couldn't see the future a decade ago, how is he supposed to know that he needs to avert it? It's ridiculous to blame him.

No, it's not ridiculous to blame him, since he is the only person responsible, and when you sell an unfinished book series, the possibility of the show passing you should be obvious. Indeed, it was obvious to fans. It should have been especially obvious when ADWD was published in 2011, alongside the first season of the show, that he had only 6-7 years to release the remaining two books (based on the show going either seven or eight years), meaning that he had 3 to 3.5 years to write each book, meaning that even if the show had gone eight seasons he would have needed to get TWOW out in 2014. Instead, Martin continued to imagine that the show was going to run ten seasons or more (if you give AFFC/ADWD three seasons, then presumably multiple seasons for TWOW as he talked about that buying him a few more years, etc.), then talking about switching over to making movies to finish the show, and/or prequel seasons, etc.

[Faint]

There was nothing at the time to indicate that he wouldn't have the books done on time.

What, the fact that the manuscript for the fifth book, which he was writing at the time he optioned the series, lost pages over the course of four years was not a big enough hint?

[sj4iy]

If D+D aren't talented enough to come up with their own ending then that is also their fault.

It's really quite simple. There's a catastrophe coming in the future. Both Martin and D+D could do something about it. But Martin couldn't see the future a decade ago, how is he supposed to know that he needs to avert it? It's ridiculous to blame him. D+D can see what's coming. And they have an easy option to avert it. If they don't take that option, they then take the blame.

The hyperbole is astounding. There is no catastrophe that needs to be averted. The show will end before the books. Big deal. Don't like it? Don't watch it. Wait for the books, if that is your wish. But don't act as if the showrunners have done something immoral for doing their jobs by using the material that they paid for and Martin willingly sold to them. Blaming them for something that they have every right and obligation to do is nothing but an attempt to defect attention away from the real issue: which is that you are angry because you want to read the end of the story before the show airs it, and it's not going to happen. But that has nothing to do with D&D, Martin, the show or the books.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I think Martin is fine with the adaptation. I simply mused on whether or not he really gave much thought to the show outstripping his books since the tv show was never a sure thing in the first place. I meant no slight on Martin or the show, it was a simple question that passed my mind.

No, I just tacked on the part about him probably be ok with their adaptation after I finished thinking through my post. But I still don't think Grrm never thought the show would happen. When HBO gave him millions of dollars, they'd done their homework already. Sure, viewers might not have liked it but again, I doubt Grrm was banking on that. I think he just assumed they'd take as long as he did.

Why is that ridiculous? Martin can't see the future. There was nothing at the time to indicate that he wouldn't have the books done on time. D+D on the other hand can quite clearly see what happens and assuming Martin doesn't want his books spoiled they have an option which keeps everyone happy. If they don't take that route then spoiling the show is their fault first and Martin's second.

Sorry but you're really reaching. The deal was made in 2006 and they began initial filming in 2007. He had plenty of time to pace himself better if he wanted to do that. That most definitely lies with him. D&D started airing in 2011. From that moment on, the stop watch was ticking down and Grrm simply thought incorrectly that he could stall them. And now you say that D&D should punt because Grrm did while he worked on other projects and that's crazy. Grrm chose to work on other assignments, which is definitely his right, but that choice has consequences. Again, Grrm is a professional and he may not be happy about the show ending things but I doubt he'll ever voice that. And I think those who would be happy with HBO creating some false ending are very, very, very few.

Ultimately, while it lets the cat out of the bag, having the show end things really frees up Grrm's schedule and allows him to finish the books at any pace he wants and to work on all the side projects he wants. It would really be liberating in a way since he seems to be a slow writer. And knowing how he prefers to work and not considering that falls completely on him. It's really crazy to put it on a vendor to fix a problem caused by the producer. Expecting a vendor not to sell the product and wait for producer to complete it when the vendor can complete it faster is just insane. D&D are just being responsible by sticking to the story and getting it done. Many more people want and deserve the story's ending - both readers and viewers - than the few readers that want to wait for Grrm to get to it.

[protar]

The hyperbole is astounding. There is no catastrophe that needs to be averted. The show will end before the books. Big deal. Don't like it? Don't watch it. Wait for the books, if that is your wish. But don't act as if the showrunners have done something immoral for doing their jobs by using the material that they paid for and Martin willingly sold to them. Blaming them for something that they have every right and obligation to do is nothing but an attempt to defect attention away from the real issue: which is that you are angry because you want to read the end of the story before the show airs it, and it's not going to happen. But that has nothing to do with D&D, Martin, the show or the books.

To me it is pretty catastrophic. And I'm sure it's pretty catastrophic to Martin as well. If you care less about the books then that's great for you. Martin missed his chance to fix this problem and for that he shares some of the blame. But now D+D are getting an opportunity to fix it as well. If they don't take that opportunity then it's their fault.

What, the fact that the manuscript for the fifth book, which he was writing at the time he optioned the series, lost pages over the course of four years was not a big enough hint?

We're talking about almost a decade ago, just after the release of AFFC. No one could have forseen that the books still wouldn't be finished by now. Blaming Martin because he couldn't see the future is ridiculous.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

If D+D aren't talented enough to come up with their own ending then that is also their fault.

It's really quite simple. There's a catastrophe coming in the future. Both Martin and D+D could do something about it. But Martin couldn't see the future a decade ago, how is he supposed to know that he needs to avert it? It's ridiculous to blame him. D+D can see what's coming. And they have an easy option to avert it. If they don't take that option, they then take the blame.

D&D never signed on to create a story. They signed on to adapt one. Your expectations that they should write a new ending are way off base. Having the show end the story is hardly a catastrophe and if Martin thinks it is, he most definitely should have considered that a decade ago. It's not up to others to fix the situation. And again, it might be best for all involved (save a few) if HBO finish it and Grrm has all the time in the world to finish his books. Especially since it looks like it will go for 8. :eek:

But now D+D are getting an opportunity to fix it as well. If they don't take that opportunity then it's their fault.

D&D do not have an opportunity to fix the fact that Martin hasn't finished his story before the show does.