Why I dislike Dany; it's not her fault, it's her foes

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yes, I think Mirri Maz Durr (and arguably Xaro, though not so much) is her best antagonist to date, not only because she did have a point, but also because she's the only one who has truly screwed Dany over by killing her husband and son. So the dragons weren't a gift, I think, but everything else kind of was

In aDwD her luck starts to run out, yes, but her enemies do not get better

[Wmarshal]

No I am not, she has a weird thing with old people and walks into traps. That is her thing, if any character had a thing it is Dany.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No I am not, she has a weird thing with old people and walks into traps. That is her thing, if any character had a thing it is Dany.

OK falling for it once, fine. Falling for it twice, you're an idiot and you get what you deserve. Especially if your opponent is, as you suggested, that easily spotted.

[Marcus Agrippa]

In fact, I don't dislike Dany at all, but I strongly disliked her chapters in the second and third book. In other words, it's not her, it's her story. Especially the antagonists she face after the first book. They aren't really her foes, they are bearers of gifts. Here's an army my dear, here's a city. Please, I insist that you have it.

When it comes to the character herself, I'm not a fan but I don't dislike her. She is a victim of abuse turning conqueror, and if she doesn't check herself, could become an abuser (So take care, Dany!). There are powerful moments, moments when I cheer, moments when she's aggravating and ultimately she's reasonably entertaining. I rather liked her POV in GoT.

But in the second and third books, she started benefiting from some kind of strange alternate reality where things that would get characters killed back in Westeros just made her more and more powerful.

At that point I could no longer just focus on the character, I kept being dragged out of the story because I was aghast at how absurd her raise to power was becoming, especially when compared to what was happening elsewhere in the books.

Let's examine her rise to power. First there's Drogo. Pretty much a barbarian yet he is far gentler and nurturing than you probably can expect from a Dothraki Khal. Hey, she got lucky. Sansa wishes she had that kind of luck. First boon she received, but one all but the most hardluck character receive routinely. Oh, there is also Jorah. Okay, two boons.

Then there are the dragons. They are the dragons are basically a gift. Not ideal, but I can live with that. She did at least do that fire walk ritual to get them to hatch, and it's a cool moment. The fact remains that the eggs were a gift, her bloodline is a birthright, and the ultimate knowledge of how to hatch the eggs (need sacrifice) pretty much fell in her lap, so that's a lot of gimme by the author. Many other characters would be envious at so many boons. But Arthur pretty much just gets Excalibur because he is Arthur, so all things considered, it's no big deal. It's a common trope in fantasy, I'm not fond of it, but tons of character I love benefited from it.

We're still in GoT and I'm still enjoying her story at that point, but she's a character who got a lot of help and boons since we met her. I guess it's okay because she received almost nothing but abuse before we met her. Still, she is edging into fanfiction Mary Sue territory.

And from there, it gets really bad, really fast. When she found that city in the middle of the red waste, she should have stayed there a few years to raise her dragons. With grown dragons, her march to power would have made sense. Instead she went to Quarth with juvenile dragons that can't defend themselves very well and no armed force to speak of. Immediately I wondered how the hell she would manage to retain her dragons and keep them from any number of covetous parties.

Answer: Nobody tried to take them! Not by force. WTF!? Everybody keeps talking about how valuable they are, yet no one just takes them. This is basically a young girl, with no social standing in any of the society she visits, no wealth and barely a handful of competent guards walking around with growing nuclear weapons. No one takes them from her.

We don't get to learn much about the men of power under whose influence she walked. Apparently they all have the greatest of respect for invidual rights and private property. Including the slavers of Astapor! They want the dragons? TAKE THEM!!!

You think if someone saw Sansa walk around with a dragon and few guards, nobody would have taken it? Of course they would have. The normal laws of human nature apply around Sansa but apparently not to Dany.

What happened instead is basically this:

-''Hi. Dany here, Mother of Dragons and future Breakers of Chains. I noticed you have a slave army.''

-''Yep. It is basically the source of my power and authority.''

-''Would you sell me the source of your power and authority?''

-''Yes.''

-''All of it?''

-''Yes.''

-''You won't keep enough to defend yourself?''

-''Nope.''

-''To the point where I can then just turn on you and you would be defenceless? Against me or against other enemies for that matter?''

-''I am that stupid so yes.''

-''Would you accept in payment a dragon that would be useless to you as a replacement source of power for years to come even if you do figure out a way to tame him?''

-''Yes.''

-''Really?!''

-''I said I am that stupid. What do you want me to say? That I am a complete moron whose sole goal in life is to provide you with an army? I am. That's exactly what I am. I am an idiotic stepping stone in your glorious march to power.''

-''So, you are telling me that when I approach you with barely a handful of warriors and three dragons, instead of just killing me and take my three priceless dragons, you will give me control of all your army for just one dragon that you will then have no way of preventing me from taking back?''

-''YES!!!''

-''I'm sorry, I just find it hard to believe that someone this stupid ever reached your position of power and that nobody before me thought to exploit it.''

-''It is a mystery, isn't it?''

And boom. An Army. 8000 Unsullied and a few thousands backup. For my next trick I will look under this rock and find the winning ticket of the Powerball. I will brag about it and nobody will steal it from me, of course. Because I'm me.

That was a really painful segment of the book. Who didn't see coming that Dany would flip on the slavers as soon as she had command of the army? The Slavers, apparently.

Sadly, the continuation of her stroll through Slaver Bay did not bring redemption. At Yunkai, she did a clever little trick to get the Second Sons drunk (though frankly, it also relied more on colossal stupidity from her foes than great wit on her part), so there's that. But the reason she had such an easy time is basically because a mercenary leader wanted to bang her and so turned on his comrades. Also because the Stormcrows are apparently rather blasé about murdering commanders.

Then she also takes Meereen in one day or so because here is a city with strong walls but stupid defenders who haven't identified the sewers as a weak point. Three city, each in one day. Thanks to...

Stupidity, stupidity and more stupidity.

At that point, I almost expected her to just march her army to the closest port and find an unattended fleet that she could just seize and sail to Westeros. Then she would likely have taken Storm's End in one hour because somebody forgot to close the gate. Why not?

Somewhere Sansa is watching this and saying: ''One white knight! All I'm asking is for one white knight! You can't tell me the odds of getting saved by one white knight are worse than this shit! ARG!''

And that's what has aggravated me the most about Dany's storyline. Not her character, but the idiot gravity field around her that bends the universe to her whims.

Apparently things get harder in ADWD. I read the first 4 books and now I am re-reading and will soon reach ADWD. Maybe it will reconcile me with her. Maybe that was even the point; see what happens when you get too much too soon. At any rate, I was really annoyed at her storyline by the end of SOS.

Daenerys does have the worst storyline of the major going for the throne characters. Aegon is intriguing even its obivous how his ends, Stannis came out of no where in ASOS and has been a good read since, Renly didn't have much and seemed to be of little value, Euron has been a fun shocker, and I guess we still have Littlefingers story even if he isn't a claiment he seems to want to rule the realm. WHat Dany lacks is getting involved with anybody who wants to stop her in Westeros. Tywin discarder her as a fanasty, Stannis hasn't heard of her, and everyone else who has just dosen't care. Littlefinger might. He did mention a war of three queens but I don't how he heard about her. Of course he could have meant sansa. I guess Daenerys really just lacks the storyline progress and interaction the others have.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Daenerys does have the worst storyline of the major going for the throne characters. Aegon is intriguing even its obivous how his ends, Stannis came out of no where in ASOS and has been a good read since, Renly didn't have much and seemed to be of little value, Euron has been a fun shocker, and I guess we still have Littlefingers story even if he isn't a claiment he seems to want to rule the realm. WHat Dany lacks is getting involved with anybody who wants to stop her in Westeros. Tywin discarder her as a fanasty, Stannis hasn't heard of her, and everyone else who has just dosen't care. Littlefinger might. He did mention a war of three queens but I don't how he heard about her. Of course he could have meant sansa. I guess Daenerys really just lacks the storyline progress and interaction the others have.

Dany's storyline in book 1 is a fantastic mixture of fairy-tale elements and gritty historical realism.

But then she hits a wall while her dragons grow up. Her story for books 2-5 is largely a story of an outsider attempting to maneuver politically in an environment that neither she nor her advisers understands, and where she can't trust the locals she recruits to help. The point of it, I think, is to give her some mistakes to grow from, but a story about somebody dealing with something they don't understand can be interesting for a little bit but not for a story protagonist over the course of 4 volumes.

She probably could have used a meaty side plot to keep things rolling over those 4 volumes. Searching for the pot of Harpy at the end of the rainbow gets old after a while.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Dany's storyline in book 1 is a fantastic mixture of fairy-tale elements and gritty historical realism.

But then she hits a wall while her dragons grow up. Her story for books 2-5 is largely a story of an outsider attempting to maneuver politically in an environment that neither she nor her advisers understands, and where she can't trust the locals she recruits to help. The point of it, I think, is to give her some mistakes to grow from, but a story about somebody dealing with something they don't understand can be interesting for a little bit but not for a story protagonist over the course of 4 volumes.

She probably could have used a meaty side plot to keep things rolling over those 4 volumes. Searching for the pot of Harpy at the end of the rainbow gets old after a while.

Haha for the most part I agree. She just isn't as well written. The amount of deceit training she gets is a little much. It's almost written to where she develops paranoia. I just don't want a second paranoid character. Cersei is a little much at this point and her paranoia has become ridiculous. I wish they would get somebody to get rid of her. Also that last sentence of yours is gold. Maybe we should start calling the masters from meereen and the slave cities little leprechauns.

[teej6]

One of the funniest and most entertaining OPs I've read in a while. The Astapori are cartoonish, idiotic, mustache twirling buffoons and if GRRM was trying to show Dany as some kind of child prodigy, he didn't do too good a job by making her antagonist one note caricatures.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hodor's Dragon: So while I kind of agree with you? Not the same overall reaction. I mostly bought it and then forgot about the part I didn't buy and moved on. That's often a good way to roll when you're reading a story - you've really just gotta be able to put up with a little stupidity here and there: it's only when it never stops that it's time to look for a different book. . . .

I have a different view on this. Because the idiocy of Dany's foes in the Slaver Bay sequence stood out so much compared to those of the rest of the POV characters, I have a harder time accepting it. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

If it was a tongue and cheek swashbuckling saga and every adversary were a variant on the theme of the mustache twirling buffoons (Thanks teej6 for that image), I could let go. These would be the rules of the game and I would just enjoy the ride. I don't complain about silly villains in the Belgariad, for example. Everybody is silly and over the top in that saga, starting with the heroes.

But this is kind of like being in the Jason Bourne universe with most characters facing appropriate challenges except for that one character alone in her corner being challenged instead by the villains from the Top Secret! movie and sucessfully foiling them with a cow disguise.

Ultimately, I kinda do the same as you and basically try to forget the whole mess and go on with the books. But as I was reading it, it was damn painful. If I ever do a third re-read, I'm just skipping all of Dany's POV in a CoK and a SoS.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

The slavers also would have lost a lot of business for years if they sold all their Unsullied and those in training. They apparently expected to be able to keep going for years without soldiers protecting them, earning nothing and a dragon they can't turn to gold. A bad reputation for five to ten years makes no difference to their earnings but puts them 3 dragons and 8000+X Unsullied ahead.

I fail to see how a merchant selling all his stuff is going "out of business".

One thing is to not have anything to sell, another thing is to not have any customer anymore.

The truth is Daenerys has done what she has done cause she is an outsider who don't have to answer to anyone.

Although Astapor was defenseless, the ghiscari slavers were not friendless, in fact ad you see half of Essos had mobilised to war against Daenerys. They had alliances, traditions and practical reasons to expect no person in their right mind would benefit from sacking their city.

Let's not forget that without the intervention of very unexpected alliances - which is going to happen - and some plot gift weakening her enemies, Daenerys cause is doomed, because she can't stand against the entire Essos with her tiny army.

Since the alliances she is going to have were not planned, the decision she had taken in Astapor was pretty much a suicidal one. Hence Ghiscari were not damn stupid to expect - as merchants used to do business - she had some sense to respect the pact.

From her Pov is clearly written everywhere that she is going to betray the customs and traditions and honour of fair trade, but from their own perspective she is no more than the nth overlord coming to hire their unsullied. Who is to say they didn't sell their entire stock more than once in history? what would they benefit in keeping their goods beside, except risking they grow old and unsold?

I must say I fail to see the illogical part in their own actions.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Who is to say they didn't sell their entire stock more than once in history? what would they benefit in keeping their goods beside, except risking they grow old and unsold?

Their 'goods' is also essentially their army. IRL, the USA routinely sell weapons including some F-16 or whatnot, but they'd never sell their entire fleet or aircraft carriers!

If Astapor sells all their unsullied, even if the person they sold to does not turn on them, the next enemy who shows up at the gate takes the city. And there happen to exist in the general area a band of roving nomads who like the pray on the weak. Heard of them? They are called the Dothraki.

Mind you, the whole unsullied business is in itself absurd, but accepting that they exist and are the core of Astapor's armed force, selling all of them is outright moronic and I don't even know why I'm arguing this. Next we'll be debating that one plus one does not equal two.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Their 'goods' is also essentially their army. The USA routinely sell weapons including some F-16 or whatnot, but they'd never sell their entire fleet or aircraft carrier!

If Astapor sells all their unsullied, even if the person they sold to does not turn on them, the next enemy who shows up at the gate takes the city. And there happen to exist in the general area a band of roving nomads who like the pray on the weak. Heard of them? They are called the Dothraki.

Mind you, the whole unsullied business is in itself absurd, but accepting that they exist and are the core of Astapor's armed force, selling all of them is outright moronic and I don't even know why I'm arguing this. Next we'll be debating that one plus one does not equal two .

I apologise but the analogy with the USA sounds to me like a very bad example.

In other words, I must be outright stupid to discuss around this point.. right?

As you wish, I won't argue anymore then.

[Mal Malenkirk]

You had in reserve arguments that would have justified Astapor choosing to disarm itself in an hostile part of the world where the likes of the Dothraki plunders anyone who shows signs of weakness?

I am sorry I wont hear them.

:P

Fine, explain me why you think what Krazny and co did could possibly make sense.

PS: To adress the only argument against the folly of this move in your previous post, the other cities of Slaver Bay did not really have alliances, or at least did not mobilize to defend Astapor after Dany sacked it. They mobilized to defend themselves! Dany explicitly went after Yunkai and Mereen. They were in fact willing to pay her off to go away and wouldn't have fought if she did! With ally like these...

Even so, if there was such an alliance with the other slaver cities, it would not have prevented Astapor from getting sacked by Dothraki or for that matter large band of mercenaries as soon as it was known they had essentially lost 80% of their armed forces. But frankly, if Dany had left Astapor standing and then moved on toward Westeros, I bet it's the slavers of Meereen or Yunkai themselves that would have moved in and killed the dumbass defenseless slavers in Astapor and taken over their operations. It's not exactly a brotherhood...

Basically, when the slavers sold all their Unsullied, they sold all their power. Whatever happened to Astapor itself, they themselves were finished even if Dany hadn't promptly killed them. Someone else was bound to take advantage. And so that was a moronic decision of cartoonish proportion.

[Hodor's Dragon]

But this is kind of like being in the Jason Bourne universe with most characters facing appropriate challenges except for that one character alone in her corner being challenged instead by the villains from the Top Secret! movie and sucessfully foiling them with a cow disguise.

:rofl:

Here's the way I see it: Martin had an overall story outline that required her to have a meteoric rise to power. That's damned difficult to plot realistically, because really, you can never do that and make it seem like it's just the natural way things happened. So here he found a solution that just cut right through the whole deal in one fell swoop and she comes out of it with the army and the 3 functioning dragons that she had to have for plot purposes. Not only that, but the actual scene where she pulls it off - so long as you're not stuck going "oh dear, this isn't realistic" - is an ass-kicking scene.

So I'll cut him a little slack. It entertained, clearly it doesn't bear extended thinking about so let's just don't, we've got the overall story structure we need, so let's move on.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hodor Dragon: So I'll cut him a little slack. It entertained, clearly it doesn't bear extended thinking about so let's just don't, we've got the overall story structure we need, so let's move on.

Yeah. Overall this is a damn good saga that I enjoy even more on my second read. I just finished re-reading SOS and was really irritated by the Dany POV in what is otherwise a great book so I felt like ranting. And as you can tell by the OP, I rather like Sansa and was starting to feel indignant on her behalf. :lol:

Now I will just close my eyes and try to mentally edit Krazny and his ilk out of existence.

When I read about Dany next I'll be like: ''Wow, she has an army now? I Wonder how she got it. I bet it was really good. Let's see what happens next.''

[Stannisaurus2]

Alright here's my shot at justifying the whole Dany-Astapor thing as best as I can.

First of all, from Dany's point of view, she doesn't really have anything to lose. If they take the deal she wins, if they don't the same for her.

Second: An argument was made about the Slavers taking her dragons by force. The problem with that is, they don't know how to control the dragons in the first place and they don't know the level of control Dany has over them (can she order them to go straight for the leaders, for example). Would they even be able to capture the dragon without either killing him or him flying away? Not to mention the trashing of their goodwill (Dany doesn't care because she frees slaves anyway so her goodwill would be rock-bottom with slavers anyway).

Third, yes it was a monumentally stupid decision to leave themselves unguarded... but with a dragon at stake and the fact that they were probably rich pampered morons is it really impossible for them to take such a stupid decision?

History is full of just as stupid decisions, if not stupider ones. Mazinot line anyone? Battle of Karansebes were Austrians lost 10, 000 men out of 100 000... by friendly fire when they mistakenly took themselves for Turks and attacked their own units??? Or that other time that officers captured a bridge from the enemy by pretending that a truce was achieved? Am I the only one reading cracked.com here? (yes, they are not a valid source for a paper but these incidents are real). And that's just the ones I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more stupid examples than these in the history books.

[The King in Black]

Daenerys has got everything for free, and her adversaries and adversities keep getting dumb and dumber. Great job, OP!

This is what frustrates me about people who want her to go fire and Blood and all and go on a mindless conquering campaign where she'll obviously succeed due to such freebies ( when she meets tyrion, their combined super plot armour will make them invincible). I would like to see her govern successfully and make right decisions to prove her mettle instead of sitting on a dragon's back and screaming dracarys

[eyenon15]

You can dislike a character without making stuff up.

She didn't get anything for free.

Dudes born first into Westeros nobility, they get armies for free

[The King in Black]

She doesn't come close to my disliked characters, but things do tend to be oversimplified for the ' big three'. I mean in her case ,now she has the iron fleet at her door steps, barristan winning her war for her and tyrion's maneuvers changing the tide of the war. So a free navy, a man with knowledge on dragons,and a dragon horn that gives her ability to control her dragons all at a time, even the feral ones ....oh and an arch maester ,all for FREE

[eyenon15]

Last I checked Vic was planning on raping and kidnapping her. Lucky her

[JonisHenryTudor]

"Immediately I wondered how the hell she would manage to retain her dragons and keep them from any number of covetous parties."

I may be off here, but I will say it anyway. There are some in Essos, perhaps even Westeros, who would have loved to take the dragons and make a profit, or use them for profit; however, I also am inclined to believe that there are some in Westeros who would love nothing better then see the dragons dead. I didn't quote the entire thing, but it also makes me wonder why she did not wait a bit longer before roaming Essos with her infant lizards. Obviously this is fantasy, and the meandering of Brienne in AffC was less than appealing, so the thought of Dany holed up in a cave somewhere until her "babies" were much larger seems to be less enticing. I do have to admit that I have committed a grave sin and skimmed many of her chapters, but after a few assassination attempts it would seem that she ought to conceal her dragons. One perfectly placed arrow could take out a 1/3 of her forces. A second lucky arrow in quick repetition would take out 2/3 of her forces, obviously I am considering the dragons the bulk of Dany's might here. I am not convinced that her army of Essos is going to be able to withstand the harsh winter climate in Westeros. But alas this is fantasy so we shall see. But to the point. It would seem that she would have protected them much more considering that their an invaluable military asset. But there is the whole argument that Dany is simply just naive, and in that case she may just be operating under the assumption that Essos and its people will also hail her and protect her, for whatever reasons. As a result, her dragons would be protected.

Obviously none of this transpired, but it seems worth noting.... or maybe not...