Bakker XXVIII: A Hiding Place Soon to be Discovered

[Curethan]

Meh, 7 foot dudes sprouting wings and actually flying blows a big rasberry at standard physics, to say nothing of the fire-breathing, airbourne, undead, man-language-speaking, allcaps dragon from another planet and portals that let you see into hell - as far as the text indicates, there is no sorcery involved there.

So why should I expect anything else to proceed in a different manner?

Not to say that they aren't capable of some type of WMDs like nukes - but I think the other points above effectively address several reasons why they wouldn't use that.

[Diziet]

I only used nukes as an example, but they could have built any large bomb and dropped them on each of the Mansions killing at least a significant number of Nonmen.

Meh, 7 foot dudes sprouting wings and actually flying blows a big rasberry at standard physics, to say nothing of the fire-breathing, airbourne, undead, man-language-speaking, allcaps dragon from another planet and portals that let you see into hell - as far as the text indicates, there is no sorcery involved there.

It blows a bit of a plot hole in the story. If they were capable of building "fire-breathing, airbourne, undead, man-language-speaking, allcaps dragons" like the ones that were fashioned after Wutteat, then they were pretty much capable of building any weapon that we have, not to mention any number of weapons beyond our imagination. How long did they spend making the dragons before the WP? Couldn't they have made long-distance missiles or F-16s or hell even machine guns to replace their weapons of light? Or do the physics not allow for projectiles either? Even with a lousy handgun you could probably kill any Quya, with Chorae it's instant win - you don't even have to come close.

[Sci-2]

This is the second time I've seen this bit, and it's still funny to me. I'd never pegged you as such an optimist Sci.

Could you elaborate?

Regarding potential plot holes...go with the fact that no dragons were given chorae.

Most other questions (y no nukes? y no swarms o' flesh eating beetles?) are too easy to explain...or, admittedly, explain away.

[SilentRoamer]

We should assume correspondence of setting on specific issues unless given evidence in the other direction. If Bakker for some reason wanted us to think that nuclear physics don't work the way they do on our world (zero evidence for that) then I'm sure he would have told us. But this whole "where is the evidence that nuclear physics work the same way???" is just silly.

Really? You just cannot posit that fundamental constraints of existence were definetely the same in the Earwan cosmos as in our Universe. It may turn out that all of the metaphysical "truths" of Earwa are misdirections and it really is a sci fi setting everything having its real world scientific explanation (ala that short about Eden).

My argument is that unless you are explicitly told or can strongly infer that a Fantasy setting is actually a future Sci Fi setting then you cannot assume the same physical laws, they are obviously not the same with the existence of the known metaphysical.

I strongly suspect that WMD's or some other powerful weapons WERE something the Inchies probably had but it just doesn't seem their rapey style and I always assumed they wanted to live where they landed and cleared of damnation so would be fairly surgical in doing so. HE is correct about the line about the sranc and grubs, the sranc were made to live on as little as possible and leave the land intact.

I only used nukes as an example, but they could have built any large bomb and dropped them on each of the Mansions killing at least a significant number of Nonmen.

From the perspective of human logic that totally makes sense, human thought constraints on inter species motivations however...

Maybe normally the Inchies use some orbital lasers on the heavy population centers. Then after destroying almost all resistance go down and have some fun time with some more species wide grafts to aid in their rapey time with the natives. We just don't know what the story is so any assumptions seem largely invalid as they are coming from an ignorant perspective in terms of our pre crash Inchoroi knowledge.

[Sci-2]

I think most fantasies - and even soft SF works - should largely get away with positing a separate metaphysics.

With Earwa though, Shae has actually said that what gives the Tekne power is reductionism. We have Bios, we have grafts, we have genetic engineering. HE's noted a few times how the Weapon Races are Bakker's solution to the AI++ problem.

So it is worth asking why only certain technologies seem to be under the Inchie purview.

I don't think this is a problem when it comes to nukes, because they could simply have used them up. Or gutting the global population has to be done in a way that doesn't create instant topoi. Or the Inchies on the Ark are not nuclear physicists...

The bigger problem, IMO, is how does the Inverse Fire work if there's no sorcery involved? [Oh, and the dragons & chorae question.]

[SilentRoamer]

It's always the danger when representing tech as magic. And it would be incredibly lame to say that the rules of physics allow for humans who are almost precisely like our humans but then claim that nuclear fission and fusion don't work the same way.

The Dunyain are not precisely human. The Few are not precisly humans. Not to mention the other numerous fantasy elements which contradict the bolded.

I am not stating that nuclear fission and fusion do not work, I am merely stating that you cannot say that they do - this is a fantasy setting at the moment. Theories abound that Earwa is the physical center of the universe... and a complete lack of a creation story and I am sure you can start to see my reasoning here. All of this would have a serious effect on the physical laws of the Earwan universe.

In truth I dont think this is something the RSB even considered as it isn't part of the story he wants to tell.

[SilentRoamer]

I think most fantasies - and even soft SF works - should largely get away with positing a separate metaphysics.

For me the problem is Sci that if you have metaphysics which have a fundamental and directly observable effect on physical reality then you are also positing seperate physics.

Laws of conservation are broken, the second law of thermodynamics becomes moot. You cannot seperate the two whilever metaphysical reality is unconstrained.

[Sci-2]

For me the problem is Sci that if you have metaphysics which have a fundamental and directly observable effect on physical reality then you are also positing seperate physics.

Laws of conservation are broken, the second law of thermodynamics becomes moot. You cannot seperate the two whilever metaphysical reality is unconstrained.

Fair enough with respect to nuclear physics, but I think SBHeart isn't wrong to assume that some kind of WMD could've been developed.

I do think you're right that certain assumptions we've made about natural laws in the Bakkerverse [such as their existence] will end up being wrong, but if reductionism can still accomplish as much as it does in the setting it's hard not to think of arbitrary limitations on weapon development a bit of a cop out.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Another reason not to nuke the place is that they are a race of lovers and want to love everyone up a bit in the process of slaying them.

[Curethan]

I think Kal, Solo and SBH aren't wrong by any stretch, they are just looking at the world-building from a sci-fi angle. i.e. our world plus other stuff. Interesting perspective, imo.

My reflex is to approach it as fantasy, where the principles of things are fundamentally different. Inchies and the Tekne make as much sense to me as unicorns, as long as the depiction is consistent I'll roll with it

Tangental crackpot; The gnosis is powered by mathematical and logical proofs and expressions, right? So maybe a sorcerer just needs to recite these mathematical equations. :drool:

[Anatúrinbor]

In truth I dont think this is something the RSB even considered as it isn't part of the story he wants to tell.

On this I definitely agree. But I'm not saying that the laws of physics are necessary all exactly the same, I only assume that the ones Bakker did not touch or explicitly modify are the same - because there is no reason to assume otherwise. Bakker did not invent an entire set of laws to replace everything in our world, some things he changed, what he didn't change should be at the default IMO. But in any case, if there is anything that he did not touch, then I doubt (the changed version) plays any important part in the story.

As for the Inchoroi flying and the dragons, that only shows that their level of technology is way beyond ours and is, as Seswatha says, beyond our understanding. (Granted, he was talking about the people of Earwa but that also applied to us.) We can't make informed assumptions about how the Inchoroi are able to fly or whether they modified their bodies to able to do so. Inchoroi, after all, do not exist in our world (that we know of ;))

Off-topic but assuming the Multiverse, what are the chances that the Inchoroi exist in our world? I remember Sci-2 (I could be wrong) said in GenChat that if the Multiverse exists then all possibilities are true?

[Curethan]

I assumed the wings were an addition because Sil rode Wutteat.

It makes sense that they grew them to combat the flying chariots and sorcerers.

If they have advanced grav-belt tech that can grant flight anyway, why the heck have wings, lol.

A little tac-nuke size WMD would take care of the GO in short order - don't need to destroy the whole world.

re; real Inchies - they would be us in the future, surely? ;) And if you're talking Multiverse then they would be seperated by more than just time and space, I think.

[sologdin]

did someone else just refer to author as 'the RSB'? hahahaha

[Diziet]

On the nuclear physics, not that it matters, but imagine if it had occurred to Bakker that the Inchoroi would just drop a few nukes and it would be over, and his solution was to say "oh, it's fantasy, I'll just pretend that nukes don't work in Earwa!" Ok, but what about other WMDs, "Well, different laws ... Sorry!"

Seems very convenient. Almost as convenient as how the Inchoroi managed to find countless inhabited worlds when we can't even find one that's habitable.

[unJon]

I don't know. I find the explanation that the Inchie technology has devolved to the point that they no longer know how to make anything, but occasionally find old tech in thee Ark to play with in a trial and error way to be fine. So they didn't find any nukes or WMDs (except the Womb Plauge, which clearly is a WMD) in the Ark. They did find the biological program that grows the dragon eggs and hatches them. They have not found any spare batteries for the lasers.

All convenient? Sure. But it is internally consistent and makes some sense.

[Diziet]

That's the implication obviously. But the Inchoroi probably spent years with the Nonmen administering the nostrums which lead to the womb plague. Doesn't seem to need that much advanced tech to me. They could have even used poisons already available to the Nonmen.

[unJon]

That's the implication obviously. But the Inchoroi probably spent years with the Nonmen administering the nostrums which lead to the womb plague. Doesn't seem to need that much advanced tech to me. They could have even used poisons already available to the Nonmen.

Really? With an immortality for men side effect???

[sologdin]

is there any indication that atomic theory is known by anyone in the setting? not nukes, but atoms?

[Anatúrinbor]

Yeah, the immortality thing seems kind of impressive, but that, if anything, is the opposite of a bioweapon. Unlike the WP which could've been obtained at the local assassin's guild.

The Nonmen did in fact attain immortality, and the Inchoroi, claiming their work done, retired back to the Incû-Holoinas.

The only way I can see how the Nonmen would allow the Inchoroi to leave after declaring their work done is if it appeared to them that both the men and the women had achieved immortality by having the aging process stop for some time, years probably, as SBH says - if not decades. (Unless the initial agreement was to only make the men immortal, which doesn't make sense because the nostrums were administered to all.)

That would seem to suggest that the initial immortality thing was separate from the Womb-Plague, the Inchoroi couldn't just go around poisoning everyone or they would be killed fairly quickly, they needed the immortality to give themselves time to administer the womb-plague to everyone before leaving.

[Diziet]

Really? With an immortality for men side effect???

Wait, wasn't that an unintentional side-effect? Why should we give them credit for it? But speaking of plot conveniences, you try to kill someone and end up making them immortal... Seems very likely.

That would seem to suggest that the initial immortality thing was separate from the Womb-Plague, the Inchoroi couldn't just go around poisoning everyone or they would be killed fairly quickly, they needed the immortality to give themselves time to administer the womb-plague to everyone before leaving.

Yeah, some plot contrivance is needed to explain how it happened. The immortality as a side-effect of poison just does not seem very likely. But what happened to the idea that the WP was unintentional? Doesn't seem that far-fetched compared to this.