Bakker XXVIII: A Hiding Place Soon to be Discovered

[Diziet]

I wonder if Madness is still communicating with Bakker whether he knows if he actually finished the book or not? Last I heard he was going over the manuscript making sure everything is right, right? Is he done yet?

[Kalbear]

madness has always communicated with Bakker

[Madness]

The Aspect-Emperor abides by his own Interdiction...

[Sci-2]

madness has always communicated with Bakker

This makes me think of that Wight possessing Cleric...

I wonder how many of the inversions and upsets we're to expect in TUC comes from the realization that what we've accepted as brute facts have been nothing more than conditioned conclusions. I doubt Bakker will defy all expectations, seeing as that would devalue the dedicated reader, but I do think we'll see the falsification of certain in-setting assumptions we've accepted as genuine metaphysical descriptions.

Reincarnation of any type would, for example, be a big wrench in our assumptions. It's also unclear how the Inverse Fire actually works, leading to my admittedly unpopular "It's just a goad" theory...

[Diziet]

Any explanation on why the Inchoroi made laser guns but not nukes or similar WMDs? Surely a people that advanced could have obliterated everything on Earwa without even landing on it.

[Sci-2]

Any explanation on why the Inchoroi made laser guns but not nukes or similar WMDs? Surely a people that advanced could have obliterated everything on Earwa without even landing on it.

They either didn't have the materials necessary for nukes or used up their nukes in previous conflicts.

Plus, given the fact they had a monarchy by the time they got to Earwa, it's possible the Inchies we're dealing with are the inheritors of the Tekne who fell back into the Dark Ages. Imagine having a ship with some great programmers, drivers, warriors, perhaps even mechanics but no engineers who can deal with the "hardware" of the Ark. Even their supposed "physicians" who administer to the Nonmen were probably the equivalent of physician's assistants rather than doctors. (Not knocking PAs here, just pointing out the knowledge gap.)

[Castel]

Any explanation on why the Inchoroi made laser guns but not nukes or similar WMDs? Surely a people that advanced could have obliterated everything on Earwa without even landing on it.

Nope.

You could pick any one explanation: they crashed, they ran out of the materials or knowledge to make one or the other even before they crashed. Some sort of alien social system that somehow allowed technological advance in one field but not another though it beggars belief.(It would be interesting to see how far you could get in any scientific field without advancing in the others) They're some splinter group without the capability or the tech/bio-engineering is easier for them. Or they stole their tech from Neglectful Precursors. They wanted to scout first and fucked up because of an integer overflow or something.

In the end you might as well be writing fanfiction.

Plus, given the fact they had a monarchy by the time they got to Earwa, it's possible the Inchies we're dealing with are the inheritors of the Tekne who fell back into the Dark Ages.

This is the second time I've seen this bit, and it's still funny to me. I'd never pegged you as such an optimist Sci.

[Diziet]

Seems a bit contrived tbh. Of course it was a plot necessity for the Inchoroi not to have a weapon that could wipe out all of Earwa's inhabitants with ease, but since Bakker had them create dragons and No-Gods (eventually) he should have provided a better answer.

[Callan S.]

Any explanation on why the Inchoroi made laser guns but not nukes or similar WMDs? Surely a people that advanced could have obliterated everything on Earwa without even landing on it.

Because they modified their own minds in some transhumanist euphoria, and that turned out to screw up their inclination to keep knowing how this stuff works (because fixated on porn instead. And rape). A civilisation collapsing into hedonism. Which is possibly how Earwa came about as well.

I think there's a direct reference to it in the text, but I do not have the power of seeing all time at once like a kindle user does (and their search function)

[lokisnow]

if they want the planet, they don't want to use nukes, obviously.

[Curethan]

Crazy assumptions anyway.

Absolutely no reason to assume applied nuclear physics operates on the same principles just because we can draw analogies between some of the results of the Tekne and modern engineering.

Just because the Incoroi had 'weapons of light' doesn't even mean they are lasers. The Gnostic 'compass of Norishau' cuts people into steaming chunks with beams of light and is clearly not a laser.

[Diziet]

if they want the planet, they don't want to use nukes, obviously.

They can still drop WMDs (or nukes) even if they wanted the planet, but who says that they do?

And we're talking about a race that can literally create dragons and other fully functional species as we do in fictional stories. At those levels it's hard to imagine that they couldn't come up with a bio-weapon that could have killed everyone on Earwa without leaving any traces and not even damaging the planet. The more I think about it the more it's clear that it's only a plot convenience without any convincing explanation. (Just like when their weapons of light got depleted was necessary for them to lose to the Nonmen. Oh, and they can create dragons that fly and shoot fire from their mouths but they can't reload or make more guns. Yeah right.)

Just because the Incoroi had 'weapons of light' doesn't even mean they are lasers.

It doesn't really matter. The point is they were something very powerful, after all, the Nonmen only got the upper hand following the Womb-Plague after the Inchoroi had exhausted those weapons.

[SilentRoamer]

How about the Ark is the female Inchoroi and was the real intelligence with the males just being used for reproduction only, the female mother/mate dies and the Inchoroi crash on Earwa?

or

The Inchoroi were gut fauna for the Ark.

or

The Inchoroi are/were advanced Automatons with the sole purpose of sealing the Outside off for the Ark.

There could be many technological, societal or religious reasons or even just different physics in Earwa. I mean thoughts originate from the soul ffs what makes you think nuclear reactions occur in the same way? Also remember the Inchies like a good old sexy time and from the bits we can surmise they seem to alter their physiology based on the world they are attacking, which I assume is to maximise the rape efficiency on the natives. Hard to rape radioactive ash. The Inchies like it up close and personal I would guess.

The whole argument is flawed as it assumes a correspondence of setting, a similarity of place that just doesn't exist between Earwa and Earth, there is nothing in universe to suggest nuclear physics would work, to expect an answer from the author seems trite.

[Kalbear]

It's always the danger when representing tech as magic. And it would be incredibly lame to say that the rules of physics allow for humans who are almost precisely like our humans but then claim that nuclear fission and fusion don't work the same way.

[Curethan]

It's always the danger when representing tech as magic. And it would be incredibly lame to say that the rules of physics allow for humans who are almost precisely like our humans but then claim that nuclear fission and fusion don't work the same way.

If you say so.

Is it fair to say, by extension, the whole fantasy aspect is a incredibly lame for you ... or is it merely the quasi-science depiction of the Tekne undermining the sorcery/gods side of things?

Like, perhaps you feel that if the metaphysics of Earwa should turn out to conform to science fiction style logic that would be cool, but if that the Tekne is revealed as some kind of material form based magic that would be lame?

I don't really mind either way - for me, normality is the simply the departure point.

If there are nukes portrayed, well and good.

If not, it seems silly to complain that they aren't there because something is like a spaceship and something else is a bit like genetic engineering.

Those things are just descriptive analogies for the sake of comprehension, as I read it.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

If you say so.

Is it fair to say, by extension, the whole fantasy aspect is a incredibly lame for you ... or is it merely the quasi-science depiction of the Tekne undermining the sorcery/gods side of things?

Like, perhaps you feel that if the metaphysics of Earwa should turn out to conform to science fiction style logic that would be cool, but if that the Tekne is revealed as some kind of material form based magic that would be lame?

I don't really mind either way - for me, normality is the simply the departure point.

If there are nukes portrayed, well and good.

If not, it seems silly to complain that they aren't there because something is like a spaceship and something else is a bit like genetic engineering.

Those things are just descriptive analogies for the sake of comprehension, as I read it.

AMEN! Lately most posts I've been reading might as well be fan-fiction. Like all this about the Aporetics. Bakker basically just said they made the Chorae, and the last 3 pages is pure speculation about them. Well, if more is needed to be known about them, I'm sure Bakker will introduce that to us. If not, they just made Chorae......end of story!

[Sci-2]

Nukes (or any WMDs) probably open topoi, a la Adventure Time.

It's not clear that reducing the population to 144K is sufficient, the Inchies just seem to believe it's necessary. Imagine reducing the population while simultaneously tearing the barrier between Inward & Outside...Wight City yo.

AMEN! Lately most posts I've been reading might as well be fan-fiction. Like all this about the Aporetics. Bakker basically just said they made the Chorae, and the last 3 pages is pure speculation about them. Well, if more is needed to be known about them, I'm sure Bakker will introduce that to us. If not, they just made Chorae......end of story!

But Bakker has connected the Chorae to the God via Mimara's Judging Eye.

And we know - or at least our available texts tell us - the Aporetics was banned before the creation of Chorae.

Seems to me this piecing together of clues is something different from fan-fiction?

[Happy Ent]

We know for a fact that the Inchoroi do not want to destroy the planet. For instance, their weapon race Sranc is designed to keep the environment unspoilt; they eat grubs, for instance. (I can’t find the passage that makes this explicit. It’s in White-Luck, somewhere.)

So no nukes. No bioweapons that could kill unsouled creatures.

[sologdin]

AMEN! Lately most posts I've been reading might as well be fan-fiction. Like all this about the Aporetics. Bakker basically just said they made the Chorae, and the last 3 pages is pure speculation about them. Well, if more is needed to be known about them, I'm sure Bakker will introduce that to us. If not, they just made Chorae......end of story!

the fan fiction component is part of the readerly experience, especially for lengthy serials. the readers project themselves into the narrative and live it out (NB that screen names here based on book characters or events are almost universal). much of the discussion on the ontological components of the RSB's setting has lacked rigorous citation for years, mostly because there is little to cite in the text about it. quite obviously the text itself is precisely not the end of the story; curious readers will fill the gaps between the sparse citable bits with their own fictive content.

[Anatúrinbor]

We should assume correspondence of setting on specific issues unless given evidence in the other direction. If Bakker for some reason wanted us to think that nuclear physics don't work the way they do on our world (zero evidence for that) then I'm sure he would have told us. But this whole "where is the evidence that nuclear physics work the same way???" is just silly.

Anyway, it makes sense for the Inchoroi to not want to destroy the planet, their vessel was ruined after all and it would have taken them ages to build another one - that's supposing that the remaining ones could eventually have built another one. It's not clear, but one thing is for sure, once they crash-landed they knew that they're staying there for a long, long time.

Whether they could've used WMDs from up top before landing is a different question though. We don't know when the ship was ruined, or how (or by who). If they had nukes or similar weapons on board, surely the ship would have handled the firing of which, and not individual Inchoroi with some sort of rocket launcher. Perhaps that's why the Ark was destroyed in the first place (by some agency). Another possibility is that the Inchoroi thought they had to populate the planet themselves once they had reduced the population to make sure that damnation does not return.

And don't forget that they needed their shrieking harem once they had won.