in defense of theon greyjoy

[INCBlackbird]

What is wrong for being against child murder?

who's saying it's wrong to be against child murder ?

[sweetsunray]

Ned is not a saint, he's a hypocrite on different occasions, don't make him out to be this perfect human being (why would you even want him to be? do you really want him to be a one dimensional good guy?).

personal remark: I don't consider good people as one dimensional, and while Cersei for example is entertaining, it are imo people like her who are one dimensional,because their emotions are shallow. There is nothing one dimensional about being good, because it takes a complex inner evolution between desire and whether doing that is best, an ability to second guess yourself, to discover your values and stand by it, and yet to regard each situation separately. And IRL those are the sole people I keep around.

[Wmarshal]

Talking to Rhaegar, can't quote.

[sweetsunray]

weither Balon would have tried is an entirely different matter. but i'm pretty sure he planned it the moment Theon was shipped off, he just waited for the right moment to strike, when Theon arrives in pyke he notices how lot's of ships are gone that were supposed to be there because Balon had sent out men to get support from his bannerman. he wasn't waiting for theon. Balon didn't care for theon, in fact he tells aeron "I hope they killed theon, so he can't stand in asha's way"

Theon's pov is never objective, he's constantly lying to himself because he's trying to be the person he thinks he's supposed to be.

To that I agree, I would even say Balon planned it before Theon left. What I'm saying is that Theon can at times make rather lucid observations: his father mentioning his dead brothers, and Theon remembering the fact that Ned didn't kill them, because Ned wasn't around where they got killed, but at the same time he can also reflect that had Ned been at the right location he probably would have killed his brothers just as well. I said, those weren't irrational empathic thoughts, but they are sober thoughts.

[INCBlackbird]

personal remark: I don't consider good people as one dimensional, and while Cersei for example is entertaining, it are imo people like her who are one dimensional,because their emotions are shallow. There is nothing one dimensional about being good, because it takes a complex inner evolution between desire and whether doing that is best, an ability to second guess yourself, to discover your values and stand by it, and yet to regard each situation separately. And IRL those are the sole people I keep around.

I didn't say good people were one dimensional. I asked if you wanted ned to be a one dimensional good guy. the thing with Ned is that he is indeed a good person, but he is not without his faults (if he didn't have those faults then he'd be one dimensional and unrealistic) one of his faults is that he's a hypocrite on some occasions, and that includes the theon thing. Ned defenitly does his best but he's not perfect, and I do not require him to be, in fact, I do not want him to be. if he were perfect, he'd be boring and unrealistic. the fact that he isn't perfect but he defenitly has good intensions and is determened to keep to those good intensions (even when he's dealing with people who are self serving and don't care about good intensions) but he also tends to be a little self rightious and expects everyone to share his view on what is right (and I don't always agree with his view on what is right) one of his most prominent features is that when Ned makes a promise he keeps it and he does his duty weither he likes it or not. When he took Theon in he knew perfectly well what that meant and he knew it would be his duty to kill him if it ever came to that. I'm sure he hoped it wouldn't happen, and I'm sure that if it happened he would have hated it. and I could even believe that he agreed to take theon because he knew that if he didn't someone else would and he'd just be denying to himself that an innocent child was taken and might get killed, rather then agreeing to take him and "honoring" him by not denying him or himself the truth of that matter (just like when he sentences someone, it's honorable to do the deed himself)

[sweetsunray]

I didn't say good people were one dimensional. I asked if you wanted ned to be a one dimensional good guy. the thing with Ned is that he is indeed a good person, but he is not without his faults (if he didn't have those faults then he'd be one dimensional and unrealistic) one of his faults is that he's a hypocrite on some occasions, and that includes the theon thing. Ned defenitly does his best but he's not perfect, and I do not require him to be, in fact, I do not want him to be. if he were perfect, he'd be boring and unrealistic. the fact that he isn't perfect but he defenitly has good intensions and is determened to keep to those good intensions (even when he's dealing with people who are self serving and don't care about good intensions) but he also tends to be a little self rightious and expects everyone to share his view on what is right (and I don't always agree with his view on what is right) one of his most prominent features is that when Ned makes a promise he keeps it and he does his duty weither he likes it or not. When he took Theon in he knew perfectly well what that meant and he knew it would be his duty to kill him if it ever came to that. I'm sure he hoped it wouldn't happen, and I'm sure that if it happened he would have hated it. and I could even believe that he agreed to take theon because he knew that if he didn't someone else would and he'd just be denying to himself that an innocent child was taken and might get killed, rather then agreeing to take him and "honoring" him by not denying him or himself the truth of that matter (just like when he sentences someone, it's honorable to do the deed himself)

Then it would have been more fair to ask "would you want Ned to be perfect?". The grammatical phrase "one dimensional good guy" links goodness with one-dimensional. I can't answer the original question, because one-dimensional is not something I link with goodness: there isn't such a thing as multi-dimensional and one-dimensional goodness. I'm more prone to link goodness with wisdom, and you can't acquire wisdom without painful experiences and making mistakes. As for the "perfect" question, my reply would be the same as yours: perfection is impossible. Even the Dalai Lama makes mistakes and has his flaws I'm sure. I like Ned though, and a part of that is exactly because he expects people to do right. That's not easy to live up to, and so he's not an easy man to live with. If that makes other characters uncomfortable, because they know they can't live up to it, that's their problem imo.

As the arguments about Ned pertaining to Theon: you have mentioned them before, I've read them, but they are not the sole values he functions and lives by. I've mentioned several others as well that would conflict with the others with regards to Theon in case Balon had rebelled again while Ned was still alive and in power. It's a conflict that GRRM avoided, but then he presented Ned with other conflicts: figuring out the parentage of Cersei's children and telling Robert or giving the children a chance to escape possible revenge by Robert, at the cost of his own safety and that of his family.

One thing he was not yet wise about though is that some people do operate on a total different set of morals, very selfish ones. He has every right to loath those morals, but he has no control over it, and he should have taken protective measures. He ultimately trusts and believes that if given the chance that everyone will choose to do good. And that's a myth. Unfortunately and ultimately, he, his wife and his children paid for that idealism with their lives (physically or emotionally). He's not fit to deal with psychopaths and he should have stayed in the North and refuse being the Hand. Although Robert never gave him that option either.

Anyhow, it's a thread about Theon, not about Ned.

[INCBlackbird]

Then it would have been more fair to ask "would you want Ned to be perfect?". The grammatical phrase "one dimensional good guy" links goodness with one-dimensional. I can't answer the original question, because one-dimensional is not something I link with goodness: there isn't such a thing as multi-dimensional and one-dimensional goodness. I'm more prone to link goodness with wisdom, and you can't acquire wisdom without painful experiences and making mistakes. As for the "perfect" question, my reply would be the same as yours: perfection is impossible. Even the Dalai Lama makes mistakes and has his flaws I'm sure. I like Ned though, and a part of that is exactly because he expects people to do right. That's not easy to live up to, and so he's not an easy man to live with. If that makes other characters uncomfortable, because they know they can't live up to it, that's their problem imo.

Anyhow, it's a thread about Theon, not about Ned.

I could have also said about another character (let's take joffrey) do you want him to be a one dimensional bad guy? I didn't link good guy with one dimensional, I said good guy because he is generally a good person and by simplefying him (taking away his flaws) you make him a one dimensional good guy.

I'm aware it's a thread about Theon, I made the thread... but if you're gonna argue about Ned then I'll give my two cents about him too.

[sweetsunray]

Joffrey is pretty much a one dimensional bad guy, lol. He's shallow. A cardboard figure. Bad guys come in all kind of schemes, but ultimately the same thing makes them tick: power and control. There's no inner conflict, only projection and blaming and pathological lying and self-importance. Though I admit it may be fascinating to read or look at them from a very safe distance.

[sweetsunray]

I'm aware it's a thread about Theon, I made the thread... but if you're gonna argue about Ned then I'll give my two cents about him too.

No need to be defensive about it. I said it out of respect to the topic of the thread.

[mankytoes]

There is no defense of Theon's betrayal of Robb or his murder of the two miller's boys. I understand the bonds of blood regardless of the relationship but Theon should have honorably and honestly severed his ties to Rob Stark. But what can you say stupid/cruel and slimy runs through Greyjoy blood. Asha must surely be the result of Balon having been cuckolded. Also he should have never allowed Ramsay Snow talk into such a despicable act. It was his vanity, arrogance and childish need to appear, instead of be, strong. Perhaps if he had paid more attention to who the Starks were instead of who he thought he was, he might have turned out a better person.

Actually, he couldn't really do that without dishonoring his house. He went back to Pyke intending to stay loyal to Robb, and then upon hearing Balon's plans, if he told Robb he'd be betraying his house. As much as he like Robb, I had a lot of sympathy when he thinks about how he was a hostage to the Starks, which is really the truth of it, yet he's expected to betray his blood, when Westerosi culture places so much importance on family.

[sweetsunray]

Actually, he couldn't really do that without dishonoring his house. He went back to Pyke intending to stay loyal to Robb, and then upon hearing Balon's plans, if he told Robb he'd be betraying his house. As much as he like Robb, I had a lot of sympathy when he thinks about how he was a hostage to the Starks, which is really the truth of it, yet he's expected to betray his blood, when Westerosi culture places so much importance on family.

But he did more than that: he went right for Winterfell and made himself Lord of Winterfell, something that was not even in the interest of his family, because it's land-locked and impossible to keep. I think people would have had much more sympathy for him if he had simply partaken in raiding the coasts. Those were his orders. But he did more than that and it was just a big giant mess.

[INCBlackbird]

No need to be defensive about it. I said it out of respect to the topic of the thread.

I'm not getting defensivve perse, just saying that when you make a statement about Ned I don't agree with I'll respond to it. it happens in discussions.

and i'd like to argue that Joffrey is not a one dimensional bad guy, I don't think there's any one dimensional characters in these books, not even Ramsay. but this is neither a joffrey thread, nor a ramsay thread. for the sake of argument though, Joffrey was imitating his father and yes he had mental problems, doesn't seem one dimensional too me.

[INCBlackbird]

But he did more than that: he went right for Winterfell and made himself Lord of Winterfell, something that was not even in the interest of his family, because it's land-locked and impossible to keep.

theon took winterfell because he had an emotional attachement to it. it was a good plan though, if he'd burned it down and taken bran, rickon, the reeds and the freys captive to take back to pyke (but that situation as pretty familiar to theon), but theon couldn't let go of winterfell. he wanted it to be his home. he never took winterfell as an act of revenge. and he even had the delusional thought that "robb can keep the riverlands, i'll keep winterfell" he actually thought they could still have some kind of mutual agreement at this point. at this point Theon is so used to lying to himself about everything that he's become completely delusional... he cannot see reality anymore.

[sweetsunray]

I'm not getting defensivve perse, just saying that when you make a statement about Ned I don't agree with I'll respond to it. it happens in discussions.

Yes, and we had gone through the same observations a couple of times. I wasn't trying to stop you from making them again or expanding on them. I was only trying to say I (and I mean I) did not want to hijack the thread.

and i'd like to argue that Joffrey is not a one dimensional bad guy, I don't think there's any one dimensional characters in these books, not even Ramsay. but this is neither a joffrey thread, nor a ramsay thread. for the sake of argument though, Joffrey was imitating his father and yes he had mental problems, doesn't seem one dimensional too me.

One dimensional means emotional shallow to me. Joffrey is emotional shallow to me.

[sweetsunray]

theon took winterfell because he had an emotional attachement to it. it was a good plan though, if he'd burned it down and taken bran, rickon, the reeds and the freys captive to take back to pyke (but that situation as pretty familiar to theon), but theon couldn't let go of winterfell. he wanted it to be his home. he never took winterfell as an act of revenge. and he even had the delusional thought that "robb can keep the riverlands, i'll keep winterfell" he actually thought they could still have some kind of mutual agreement at this point. at this point Theon is so used to lying to himself about everything that he's become completely delusional... he cannot see reality anymore.

I don't necessarily believe he did it out of revenge. I think your assessment of it is probably right.

[mankytoes]

But he did more than that: he went right for Winterfell and made himself Lord of Winterfell, something that was not even in the interest of his family, because it's land-locked and impossible to keep. I think people would have had much more sympathy for him if he had simply partaken in raiding the coasts. Those were his orders. But he did more than that and it was just a big giant mess.

Assuming you have a basic knowledge of history- is it possible to "conquer" a territory without taking the capital? Absolutely not. Balon's actions make absolutely no sense. Ok, he wants to conquer the North out of some ridiculous pride and misplaced ideas of vengence, fine. Then Theon uses ingenuity to capture the ruling seat of the North. Balon and Asha both refuse to help him keep it. So how was Balon intending to hold the North, if he didn't want to capital. This is like us going to war with France, a general capturing Paris and being told "retreat at once, we couldn't possibly hold Paris!".

What Theon did was brilliant in the context of the Iron Island's invasion of the North. It is still hard to see it ending well, but only because Balon's whole invade the North plan is so stupid. God I hate Balon so much.

[sweetsunray]

Assuming you have a basic knowledge of history- is it possible to "conquer" a territory without taking the capital? Absolutely not. Balon's actions make absolutely no sense. Ok, he wants to conquer the North out of some ridiculous pride and misplaced ideas of vengence, fine. Then Theon uses ingenuity to capture the ruling seat of the North. Balon and Asha both refuse to help him keep it. So how was Balon intending to hold the North, if he didn't want to capital. This is like us going to war with France, a general capturing Paris and being told "retreat at once, we couldn't possibly hold Paris!".

What Theon did was brilliant in the context of the Iron Island's invasion of the North. It is still hard to see it ending well, but only because Balon's whole invade the North plan is so stupid. God I hate Balon so much.

The plan was to get Robb pinned in the Neck by holding Moat Cailin. Robb would be trapped between the Moat and Tywin's army. Once Robb's army is whiped out, then Balon can sweep up rest of the North. The invasion in '44 was on the coast of Normandy, not Paris first. Of course a capital is needed to be the conquerer, but it requires time, and making sure you hold important strategic point so you don't lose the capital in an instant again. For the rest to send reinforcement to WF, at the cost of the strategic points while Robb's force is still deadly is suicide.

BTW I hate him too, and I think he got the most deserving death: as stupid and insignificant as falling from a bridge.

[UnViserion]

Talking to Rhaegar, can't quote.

I guess I should have been more tactful in my original post. If someone hates Theon because of the two farmboys, who am I to argue that? It's as valid of a reason as anybody needs when we're talking about a fictional story. The part I find comical is when people suggest he's the series' most evil character on account of those two farmboys, which isn't even a matter of opinion, really-- it's just flat out wrong.

Gregor, Ramsay, Tywin, the slavers... etc.

An evil act is an evil act, but he's nowhere near these guys.

[Lord Reaver]

Gregor, Ramsay, Tywin, the slavers... etc.

An evil act is an evil act, but he's nowhere near these guys.

You forgot Arya. If we're going to hate child-killers without any consideration of he circumstances, might as well start with her.

[INCBlackbird]

You forgot Arya. If we're going to hate child-killers without any consideration of he circumstances, might as well start with her.

also Sandor, Jaime, Robb, Ned, Daenerys, Stannis, robert, cercei.... (i'd also say renly, littlefinger, pycelle and varys because they all encouraged robert to kill daenerys)