in defense of theon greyjoy

[Jasta11]

isolation doesn't mean to be locked in a room, it means to be isolated in a place with only your captors as company (winterfell) the starks didn't need to psychologically manipulate him, theon believed he was in danger (he was under threat of death) and he developed stockholm syndrome as a coping mechanism, the starks didn't need to help him with that. no one reminds him of the threat? right, surely he's not reminded when ned takes him to execusions so theon can witness the fate that might befall him one day.

Your ground is incredibly shaky. Living in a castle where there are hundreds of people, most of whom he knew by name, is isolation? He was allowed to go out and hunt, for frick's sake, with no one to watch over him save Robb, Bran and a handful of guardsmen, a hunt during which he was left completely to his own devices. Sure, otherwise he couldn't leave, but that's not isolation by any definition. Theon was disliked by many in Winterfell, but it's hard to say how much was caused by him being a hostage, and how much was caused by him being a jerk.

He believed he was in danger, and he was. He was a hostage. That does not mean he automatically developed SS, especially since (and you failed to counter that point) he had good reasons to have sympathy for the Starks in the first place. It is not an irrational reaction to have loyalty to people who treated you better than your own family.

Ned did not bring Theon to show him what would happen to him. That's blatantly out of character, so much I'm beginning to really question your bias. He brought his eight years old son as well, and simply did his job as Lord of Winterfell. Theon was there as his hostage and ward. This was not about him at all. And Theon also seems to have been the only one who enjoyed the execution anyway.

You don't really have much of a leg to stand on, I'm afraid. Certainly, Theon being a hostage damaged him emotionally, that's undeniable. But that's a far cry from suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Especially since we then get, later in his story, a textbook case of said syndrome laid down right in front of us.

[The Marquis de Leech]

That's true, but yet, the truth is that his foster father certainly treated him better than his real father, since we see that his real father, in point of actual fact, not future, possible theoretical fact, but real, actual fact, was prepared for Theon to die, since he was rebelling again, and had been planning to attack with no thought of Theon, when Theon was still a "captive" of the Starks. So, we know for an absolute fact that Balon didn't care if his son lived or died. We can only project and speculate on the future that never happened what would have happened to Theon if he had still been a prisoner of the Starks.

We know he thinks of Robb as a brother and that his real brothers gave him serious beatings as a very, very young boy, under the age of 10. Doesn't sound too good either, to me.

Balon hasn't seen his son for a decade, has given him up for lost, and has been doting on his daughter instead. We don't know how Balon would have treated Theon if Theon hadn't been dragged away to the North: it's perfectly possible that he'd treat Theon the way he treats Asha.

But in any case, Balon was Theon's real father. Ned wasn't. And that's really what matters.

[INCBlackbird]

Your ground is incredibly shaky. Living in a castle where there are hundreds of people, most of whom he knew by name, is isolation? He was allowed to go out and hunt, for frick's sake, with no one to watch over him save Robb, Bran and a handful of guardsmen, a hunt during which he was left completely to his own devices. Sure, otherwise he couldn't leave, but that's not isolation by any definition. Theon was disliked by many in Winterfell, but it's hard to say how much was caused by him being a hostage, and how much was caused by him being a jerk.

He believed he was in danger, and he was. He was a hostage. That does not mean he automatically developed SS, especially since (and you failed to counter that point) he had good reasons to have sympathy for the Starks in the first place. It is not an irrational reaction to have loyalty to people who treated you better than your own family.

Ned did not bring Theon to show him what would happen to him. That's blatantly out of character, so much I'm beginning to really question your bias. He brought his eight years old son as well, and simply did his job as Lord of Winterfell. Theon was there as his hostage and ward. This was not about him at all. And Theon also seems to have been the only one who enjoyed the execution anyway.

You don't really have much of a leg to stand on, I'm afraid. Certainly, Theon being a hostage damaged him emotionally, that's undeniable. But that's a far cry from suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Especially since we then get, later in his story, a textbook case of said syndrome laid down right in front of us.

it's not about what he was and wasn't allowed. he couldn't leave, he did not have the freedom to go home if he wanted to, because he was a prisoner, thus, he was isolated. since he became a jerk as a defense mechanism and didn't start out as one (remember how asha describes him as meek and shy) I doubt people in winterfell disliked him for being a jerk, maybe it became a way for them to confirm their own bias towards him but since he didn't start out that way that can't have been the initial reason.

I didn't counter the part where he had reason to feel sympathy for the starks, of course he did, he grew up among them. lived with them for 9 years, he expected abuse and was not abused by them. but he was still a captive and he had the threat of death, the bonding was due to this, it's a logical reaction for a child under threat of death and it is defined as stockholm syndrome.

did I not specifically say in my previous post (the one you responded to) that no, Ned did not take him to execusions to remind him, but that doesn't change the fact that to theon it was a reminder, which is the point. Ned's intension is irrelevant, we're talking about theon's psyche here, not Ned's. theon clearly didn't enjoy those execusions, reading comprehension ?

yes theon's captivity damaged him emotionally and one of the names they gave to one of his many coping mechanisms is stockholm syndrome.

[The Marquis de Leech]

He believed he was in danger, and he was. He was a hostage. That does not mean he automatically developed SS, especially since (and you failed to counter that point) he had good reasons to have sympathy for the Starks in the first place. It is not an irrational reaction to have loyalty to people who treated you better than your own family.

The same Starks who butchered his people? He's old enough to remember his father's Rebellion.

On the SS front: he's a hostage who developed sympathy for his captors, to the extent that he starts identifying with them. That is SS. Yes, it's less disturbing to think of yourself as a pseudo-Stark than a pseudo-Bolton-Reek-Thing, but that doesn't change the fact that Theon's mental state has been severely screwed up even by kindly old Ned.

[Cas Stark]

Balon hasn't seen his son for a decade, has given him up for lost, and has been doting on his daughter instead. We don't know how Balon would have treated Theon if Theon hadn't been dragged away to the North: it's perfectly possible that he'd treat Theon the way he treats Asha.

But in any case, Balon was Theon's real father. Ned wasn't. And that's really what matters.

Yeah, that's because Balon is an asshole. Robert and Ned haven't seen each other in 9 years, but they didn't forget their friendship, like Balon "forgot" about his only remaining son.

I think what really matters is that most of Theon's problems stem from the dichotomy of values/allegiances that he is stuck with as a result of being the ward/hostage of the Starks and yet the heir to the Iron Islands. It has much less to do with Balon or Eddard than it does Theon and his shaky self image and split loyalties.

The situation he is in terrible and destructive, there is no need to exaggerate that the Starks mistreated or abused him or that he's got Stockholm Syndrome, the facts as they exist without any embellishment are themselves a recipe for disaster.

[sweetsunray]

and he did live for 9 years with no control over his own life, only surrounded by people who disliked him by default (and robb) he tries to bond with the starks because he hopes that if his father ever rebels the starks will be too attached to him to kill him (aka stockholm syndrome), when this fails he just lies about it to himself. the starks did do their best, i'm not denying that but Theon was a hostage under threat of death, which is psychological abuse.

weither or not it was intended as a reminder is irrelevant, theon knew Ned may kill him one day, to him it was a reminder of the fact that it may happen to him one day. which is clearly seen in the first GOT chapter where Theon kicks the head of the decapitated deserter and smiles. turning it into a joke is theon's way of coping with his fear it's him telling himself the situation is not so serious (denying the fear he is feeling) while simultaniously showing everyone arround him that he is not scared (because being scared is considered a sign of weakness "but I am not weak" theon told himself)

A child never has control over his own life, with bad or good parents or caretakers. We don't consider children growing up in homes where they are treated fairly as suffering from stockholm syndrome either. Anology: let's say a child is taken from their parents for abuse reasons and is planned to be fostered to a good family, and the actual parents put all sorts of ideas in the child's head of possible mistreatment by the hands of the foster parents, and then finds a lifelong stable home with the foster parents, would you then also argue that child suffers from trauma-bonding or stockholm syndrome?

For me Theon has an identity issue and majorly seeks acceptance and love, and having to grow up with a family who is the enemy of your own natural family certainly does not help with that. But the seed of that developing identity crisis imo is already planted at his original abusive home,and reinforced once he gets back home. That abuse shaped the basis of a personna who's trying to please and become what he hopes people around him expect him to be: a Stark, a Greyjoy, Reek. His story is enormously pitiful.

For me you exaggerate the stockholm syndrom; the real problem is that from the start Theon was burdened with an identity crisis in the making. It is also the reason why I consider the Stark attitude the healthiest. Yes, on the one hand he's reminded of the fact that he isn't Stark and never will be, and it's very sad that he doesn't experience a loving relationship with them except for Robb. But it's a fact that he isn't a Stark, and he gets the chance in those years to develop his own identity as a non-Stark, something his father nips in the bud as soon as he gets home.

[UtherSnow]

Had Balon not lead a rebellion, what kind of a life would Theon have? Remember, he's from the Iron Islands, which don't sound all that wonderful. Lashed by wind, thrashed by seas. More than likely his brothers would slap him around, and Asha too. Balon would not like seeing a lily-livered brat of his always crying. My Dad's bigger than your Dad don't work when Dad's a leader of a clan.

Balon took it upon himself to declare he was now King. Jumping on a bandwagon, really. Things aren't going to go well with Theon, even though he was roughly 10 at the time of Balon's Rebellion. He didn't die in battle as his brothers had. How confused would he have been at being sent away?

Irrespective of who takes Theon away, it would still have to be Balon to send his son to be a hostage. After that, he's in the hands of whoever he's been handed over to.

When you think about it, Ned Stark is the best thing for Theon. He's got boys round his own age, to do what boys always do.

What would life for Theon be like had he gone to Tywin Lannister? He'd be lucky if it was Kevan. No way do I see them treating Theon as Ned did.

Can you see Theon and Ramsay together, if he'd been handed over to Roose? He'd be Reek before the original Reek!

I have no sympathy for Theon. He's delusional. I see no redeeming factors in him. He may have redeeming acts but, ultimately what is dead is always dead, mate. (Unless it's north of The Wall, when it could become a wight.)

House Greyjoy even forget their own motto - We Do Not Sow

Just thought of something else that seems to have been overlooked.

There was more chance of Theon being returned home, to Pyke, if Robert (as the monarch) decreed it. That can't come from Ned. Balon's Rebellion was an act of war against Robert's Kingdom.

Move on to the potential alliance that Robb thought Theon could broker. Had Theon gone ahead and done what he'd been released to do, don't you think Robb would've recognised that?

Oh what a fool Theon was. Delusional idiot.

[INCBlackbird]

The situation he is in terrible and destructive, there is no need to exaggerate that the Starks mistreated or abused him or that he's got Stockholm Syndrome, the facts as they exist without any embellishment are themselves a recipe for disaster.

who is exaggerating what the starks did to him ? we are just stating facts. mainly the fact that he was a hostage under threat of death, which I never blamed the starks for, it's just a fact. I clearly stated many times that the starks don't need to mistreat him for him to get stockholm syndrome. stockholm syndrome is a defense mechanism of a captive bonding with their captor in hopes it will keep them safe. theon being under constant threat of death was enough to do that.

[INCBlackbird]

A child never has control over his own life, with bad or good parents or caretakers. We don't consider children growing up in homes where they are treated fairly as suffering from stockholm syndrome either. Anology: let's say a child is taken from their parents for abuse reasons and is planned to be fostered to a good family, and the actual parents put all sorts of ideas in the child's head of possible mistreatment by the hands of the foster parents, and then finds a lifelong stable home with the foster parents, would you then also argue that child suffers from trauma-bonding or stockholm syndrome?

For me Theon has an identity issue and majorly seeks acceptance and love, and having to grow up with a family who is the enemy of your own natural family certainly does not help with that. But the seed of that developing identity crisis imo is already planted at his original abusive home,and reinforced once he gets back home. That abuse shaped the basis of a personna who's trying to please and become what he hopes people around him expect him to be: a Stark, a Greyjoy, Reek. His story is enormously pitiful.

For me you exaggerate the stockholm syndrom; the real problem is that from the start Theon was burdened with an identity crisis in the making. It is also the reason why I consider the Stark attitude the healthiest. Yes, on the one hand he's reminded of the fact that he isn't Stark and never will be, and it's very sad that he doesn't experience a loving relationship with them except for Robb. But it's a fact that he isn't a Stark, and he gets the chance in those years to develop his own identity as a non-Stark, something his father nips in the bud as soon as he gets home.

honestly, I agree with most of what you write here. I don't even know how we ended up argueing weither or not theon has stockholm syndrome because I don't see it as a big theon really. his identity crisis is the most important part for me. his stockholm syndrome is just another one of his many defense mechanisms. in case you're interested, this is my full analysis of theon : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114745-analysing-theon-greyjoy-adwd-spoilers/

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'm not actually arguing for gross mistreatment. I quite happily accept that the Starks treated Theon like any highborn hostage in Westeros would expect to be treated. It's just that the operative word in the previous sentence is "hostage". And that's what messed up Theon.

Everything about Theon is really shaped by his desire to be a Stark and a Greyjoy at the same time. His fondness for archery is probably more Northern than Ironborn (the latter have minimal opportunity for hunting land-based game, and I can imagine long distance fighting being considered cowardly). His dandyish fondness for fine clothes is certainly a continental influence, to the extent that he's more keen on appearances than Ned ever was. His womanising reflects what he thinks a (Greyjoy) man should be, combined with the opportunity to (for once) be in a position of power relative to someone else. His delight in the execution is again him trying to live up to his self-image of what his own people are like. And, of course, his Greyjoy instincts told him to take Winterfell, and his Stark instincts told him to keep it.

He's a pitiable victim of a screwed-up environment.

[Jasta11]

The same Starks who butchered his people? He's old enough to remember his father's Rebellion.

On the SS front: he's a hostage who developed sympathy for his captors, to the extent that he starts identifying with them. That is SS. Yes, it's less disturbing to think of yourself as a pseudo-Stark than a pseudo-Bolton-Reek-Thing, but that doesn't change the fact that Theon's mental state has been severely screwed up even by kindly old Ned.

SS is more than just having sympathy for your tormentors. It's going to the point of the irrational surviving mechanism. Theon did not need to develop such a mechanism in his time with the Starks, and I'm not inventing that he has Stark sympathies considering he speaks for them to Balon and tries to identify with Ned and Robb several times, among other things.

Sure, he grew up in a messed up environment, being a hostage for half your life is going to do that. But to say he developed a syndrome out of it is not supported by the text, to me at least. The Starks were not his BFFs, but he had reasons for his ambivalent attitude towards them. Even with the whole took-me-from-my-family thing.

[A Bastard Snow]

Stockholm Syndrome is a real phenomenon where for the sake of their own safety and life a hostage bonds and empathizes with the hostage taker. In a long term abusive relationship it's called trauma-bonding. It are the dynamics that makes for an abused victim to defend their partner/parent/child for abusing them.

Not every hostage situation creates stockholm syndrome. There are several things the hostage taker or abuser must do: threaten, abuse and punish the victim even when they're doing nothing wrong, and sometimes out of the blue refrain from punishing the victim even when they did somethign they expect to incurr the wrath of the abuser. The refraining of the expected punishment will be regarded as kindness then. And sometimes the abuser or hostage taker rewards the victim. In order to survive, the victim then will try to predict the abuser's behaviour and anticipate ways to please him or her. The main point is that there must be a threat to safety (physical or mental), that there is abusive punishment witnessed or experienced (and often) and that sometimes there is a reward or no punishment, and that the reward-punishment patterns are unpredictable and erratic.

Personally I see little evidence for Theon bonding in such a way to the Starks. He does not have to walk on eggshells. He definitely shows Stockholm Syndrome as Reek though, because Ramsay knows exactly how to make someone bond through abuse.

BTW it's not a mental disease, but a survival tactic.

Theon being a Ward is not some poor tragic thing it is a common thing and everyone does it.He was raised the same as all the other Starks right alongside them.Sure he wasent going to get WF but neither would Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon or Jon and you dont see them getting mad about it.

Also anyone who thinks Ned would have killed Theon clearly did not read the books as its shown time and time again that Ned does not punish innocent people for a crime they did not commit.Ned would not kill Theon just because his father rebelled because nothing would come of it.Having to kill a Hostage means you have already lost as the other side has already decided that the hostages life is no longer of value to them.

[Pod The Impaler]

Everything about Theon is really shaped by his desire to be a Stark and a Greyjoy at the same time.

He's a pitiable victim of a screwed-up environment.

:agree:

[UtherSnow]

I'm not actually arguing for gross mistreatment. I quite happily accept that the Starks treated Theon like any highborn hostage in Westeros would expect to be treated. It's just that the operative word in the previous sentence is "hostage". And that's what messed up Theon.

Theon's a delusionist opportunist. He's screwed himself up. His kind are fodder for such as Ramsay. I'd not put it beyond Ramsay to attempt to get rid of Roose. Reek told him to, so he'd say. Theon being Reek might even cop to it, just to think he was getting one over on Ramsay.

House Greyjoy accept Theon as their one and true king. Wouldn't that be something! I think not. Chances are it'd turn out to be..... Ramsay's already convinced Theon that he was Reek. If he can pull the wool then.... Don't turn around. Don't turn around. Lightning doesn't strike twice. Because Death is...... A very high price!! (Final chorus from old Def Leppard song.)

[Bittersteel Targaryan]

Theon isn't a ward like the Freys or Reeds are, though. He's a hostage, and we know from his chapters that he isn't treated the same as the rest of the kids, let alone like a brother.

So yes, there is clearly reason to assume he was treated differently (i.e. beaten when they were not).

Aside from that, we have clear examples of the other kids doing things far worse than running down stairs (Arya running away, for instance) without getting corporal punishment for it.

From the show I thought that Robb was like a brother to Theon he was the second one to bend the knee as Robb the King of the North. I also believe if he had found Bran and Rickon he wouldn't have had the heart to kill them because there was a bond. You don't just sup with people for 10 or so years and decide to go off and kill them especially not hostages as children of a Lord

[Lord Reaver]

From the show I thought that Robb was like a brother to Theon

The show doesn't matter here. These are the book forums. I think you may have mistakenly posted in the wrong part. In the books, Theon regards Robb as something of a younger brother, yes, but nothing of the sort of fondness most people around here are assuming.

he was the second one to bend the knee as Robb the King of the North.

Nope, never happened. And it would be bizarre if he did. He was son of a Lord Paramount. Swearing allegiance to someone of his own rank is not an option.

I also believe if he had found Bran and Rickon he wouldn't have had the heart to kill them because there was a bond. You don't just sup with people for 10 or so years and decide to go off and kill them especially not hostages as children of a Lord

There was no bond to Bran and Rickon, Theon outright thinks so in his POV. They got the same choice Theon did, hostages with the threat of death. Theon never attempted escape, yet they did. Ergo, Theon is just as much in his right to kill them as Ned would have been, had Balon refused to do what he told him.

[sweetsunray]

Theon being a Ward is not some poor tragic thing it is a common thing and everyone does it.He was raised the same as all the other Starks right alongside them.Sure he wasent going to get WF but neither would Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon or Jon and you dont see them getting mad about it.

Also anyone who thinks Ned would have killed Theon clearly did not read the books as its shown time and time again that Ned does not punish innocent people for a crime they did not commit.Ned would not kill Theon just because his father rebelled because nothing would come of it.Having to kill a Hostage means you have already lost as the other side has already decided that the hostages life is no longer of value to them.

Certainly not arguing against that.

[The Wolves]

Theon being a Ward is not some poor tragic thing it is a common thing and everyone does it.He was raised the same as all the other Starks right alongside them.Sure he wasent going to get WF but neither would Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon or Jon and you dont see them getting mad about it.

Exactly!!!

And I don't get how Theon had identity issues with being a Stark because he never was a Stark and would never be a Stark. No matter if he took Winterfell, they or the North would never love him like they did the Starks, they and the world would have never seen him as a Stark.

The Starks treated Theon like a Greyjoy he was never a Stark.

[sweetsunray]

I agree that Theon was treated like a Greyjoy, and that was the healthiest and most responsible way to treat him. In fact, I think it is the only time in his life where he gets the chance to explore for himself who he really is and who he wants to be for himself. Nobody at the Starks is telling him how disappointed they are in him, or who he should be. Still, irregardless of that, Theon does want to be a Stark.

The identity issue is sown already by Balon and his brothers before he gets warded off and the trauma that his father sent him off without ever looking back. But since that issue is already sown, it does fester in him, and the situation of not-being-a-Stark (and being reminded of that) gets warped and deepens the identity issue for him. It's like someone who had a back injury, but the sole job available to put bread on the table is construction and carrying heavy loads. All his co-workers and his boss treat him fairly, not as a cripple, and so require him to carry the same load as everybody else. They even teach him the correct method how to carry it with minimal stress on his back. But the back injury already did its damage, and the normal carry load just adds to the injury. In a perfect world, he'd get to heal his back, before carrying anymore load. But life and certainly Westeros life doesn't work that way.

It's Theon's early injury, and the Starks did the best and fairest they could, but with Theon everything will be warped anyhow to funnel the identity issue, and the Starks aren't therapists either. I completely agree the Starks did nothing wrong by him, and he should kiss his hands to the sky that he had the chance to grow up with them. I completely agree that Eddard taking him along to executions was certainly never meant as a reminder for Theon, or that it was wrong of him. But I can see how Theon would shudder inwardly and think of his brothers and possibly his own neck, and then mask it with inappropriate bravado and so be a jerk. It's like my aunt who never forgave my grandmother for letting her have the best room and sleep in it all by herself when she was a child, because that way my other younger aunts slept together and teamed up against her. Twisted, but my aunt believed it anyhow. With some unhealthy minds, everything gets skewed and skewered. Theon was a lost soul and unhealthy mind, before he arrived at WF for the 1st time. It doesn't excuse him imo. It doesn't make me think well of him. But I do find his story a tragic one, and I am curious who he would turn out to be if he ever gets the chance to overcome the identity issue. He's warped, but I do think that he has empathy, although he considers that to be a weakness and tries to mask it.

[INCBlackbird]

Also anyone who thinks Ned would have killed Theon clearly did not read the books as its shown time and time again that Ned does not punish innocent people for a crime they did not commit.Ned would not kill Theon just because his father rebelled because nothing would come of it.Having to kill a Hostage means you have already lost as the other side has already decided that the hostages life is no longer of value to them.

if you think Ned wouldn't have done it you haven't read the book. Ned keeps his word... he was also distant to theon because he knew he might have to put him to death one day. let me send you this: http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/23555400271/when-people-say-ned-would-never-have-executed-theon-had

but honestly, I don't really feel like argueing about this, if you have such a high opinion of Ned the hypocrite, keep it. think that he wouldn't have done it. it doesn't even matter, what matters is that theon believed he would have! and that is damaging to anyone especially a child!