in defense of theon greyjoy

[Cas Stark]

Theon isn't a ward like the Freys or Reeds are, though. He's a hostage, and we know from his chapters that he isn't treated the same as the rest of the kids, let alone like a brother.

So yes, there is clearly reason to assume he was treated differently (i.e. beaten when they were not).

Aside from that, we have clear examples of the other kids doing things far worse than running down stairs (Arya running away, for instance) without getting corporal punishment for it.

He is routinely referred to as a ward in Game of Thrones, that's the novel where he also says Eddard Stark is like a second father to him....

[INCBlackbird]

His life was never in danger, nor any of his thoughts point to him thinking that.

No one in the North knows some miiler's boys are dead, no one, just Bran and Rickon.

it's a logical conclusion from the situation, if he loses winterfell he was most probably gonna die (only reason he didn't was because ramsay wanted a new plaything) and if bran and rickon escaped he was going to lose winterfell.

yes, what does that have to do with anything though, the quote isn't about that, it's about who killed them, but I guess you just don't want to see so there's no use argueing about it anymore. I will keep repeating the same things, you will keep repeating the same things... I really don't understand how you can not understand what i'm saying here.... so I can only conclude you simply don't want to know.

[Wmarshal]

it's a logical conclusion from the situation, if he loses winterfell he was most probably gonna die (only reason he didn't was because ramsay wanted a new plaything) and if bran and rickon escaped he was going to lose winterfell.

yes, what does that have to do with anything though, the quote isn't about that, it's about who killed them, but I guess you just don't want to see so there's no use argueing about it anymore. I will keep repeating the same things, you will keep repeating the same things... I really don't understand how you can not understand what i'm saying here.... so I can only conclude you simply don't want to know.

He was going to lose Winterfell anyway with them dead, that is the thing, them gone or dead wasn't change that, and makes killing the miiler's boys pointless. He had no reason or ever thought them gone meant his head.

No, it is about the lie Bran and his brother is dead, that is the point thing for Roose, not whether or not his son did the deed. Because it makes no sense, no killed Bran or Rickon, so how on earth is it saying who killed them. Theon has sinned like many others, trying to justify his sins is pointless as justifying Hoster's. Robb's and Tywin's.

[Lord Reaver]

He is routinely referred to as a ward in Game of Thrones, that's the novel where he also says Eddard Stark is like a second father to him....

Do I really have to link to the clip where GRRM explains the differences between a ward and a "ward" (a.k.a hostage), again ? Would have thought most everyone had seen that by now.

And yes, Theon had gotten quite good at saying what his captors wanted to hear. I imagine anyone would after 10 years in captivity.

[Cas Stark]

Do I really have to link to the clip where GRRM explains the differences between a ward and a "ward" (a.k.a hostage), again ? Would have thought most everyone had seen that by now.

And yes, Theon had gotten quite good at saying what his captors wanted to hear. I imagine anyone would after 10 years in captivity.

I know that you hate the idea that Theon had any real, true, emotional bond with the Starks, but it's all over the books, sorry, his identification with the Starks is all over his POVs, long after he has left his "captivity" he is still using Eddard Stark as his role model.

[Lord Reaver]

I know that you hate the idea that Theon had any real, true, emotional bond with the Starks, but it's all over the books, sorry, his identification with the Starks is all over his POVs, long after he has left his "captivity" he is still using Eddard Stark as his role model.

On the contrary, I agree that he did have a "bond" with them, it's called Stockholm syndrome, and it's quite the nasty sort of mind-fuckery indeed.

[Leonardo]

Neither did theon...

Yes, he most certainly did.

Umm none of those people have murdered children just to save themselves from embarassment

And no Inc, Theon's embarassment wouldn't have dire consequences, he just wouldn't get respect from his POS family and someone else would succeed Balon instead of Theon as King of the Iron Isles. He'd still live a comfortable life as one of the most powerful lords on the isles

What's worse is that whenever people found out (which was totally inevitable) he'd look even more like an idiot. There were no dire consequences, the North was already won and with it the war was effectively won because Robb would be dead soon. Theon would laughed at a bit like Victarion was with Fair Isle, which lost the Ironmen the war the first time, but he still would be afforded a position of great respect and comfort.

It was motivated by Theon's greed, since he saw himself as his father's heir. I like Theon and think he has many redeeming qualities, but come on, he murdered two children just to save his own ass.

[INCBlackbird]

He was going to lose Winterfell anyway with them dead, that is the thing, them gone or dead wasn't change that, and makes killing the miiler's boys pointless. He had no reason or ever thought them gone meant his head.

No, it is about the lie Bran and his brother is dead, that is the point thing for Roose, not whether or not his son did the deed. Because it makes no sense, Theon has sinned like many others, trying to justify his sins is pointless as justifying Hoster's. Robb's and Tywin's.

yes but he hoped his men would be loyal to him and the people of winterfell would be too scared to revolt. and at the time he still thought asha would sent men to help him hold winterfell.

it's pretty clear from the quote that it's not about who the boys are but about who did the deed but I've repeated this many times and it's all pretty clear from the quote, this shouldn't even be a question, what do you mena it doesn't make sense ? it's very important for the Bolton's that no one knows Ramsay was involved because, as they state multiple times, most of the north still loves the starks. and they need theon as a scapegoat. they use him as a scapegoat for what happened in winterfell (he basically offered himself up on a platter without knowing) and they are still doing it (see the Jeyne marriage Roose uses him for)

[Cas Stark]

On the contrary, I agree that he did have a "bond" with them, it's called Stockholm syndrome, and it's quite the nasty sort of mind-fuckery indeed.

There is no Stockholm syndrome because Theon Greyjoy was never abused by the Stark family, instead, he was treated like the ward of a high lord, given all the honors and preferences due him with this rank. Which, again, is why he says Eddard Stark is like a second father to him, that Robb was like a brother and that he wishes he died with Robb.

That isn't to say his situation didn't create his confused identity, of course it did.

[Wmarshal]

yes but he hoped his men would be loyal to him and the people of winterfell would be too scared to revolt. and at the time he still thought asha would sent men to help him hold winterfell.

it's pretty clear from the quote that it's not about who the boys are but about who did the deed but I've repeated this many times and it's all pretty clear from the quote, this shouldn't even be a question, what do you mena it doesn't make sense ? it's very important for the Bolton's that no one knows Ramsay was involved because, as they state multiple times, most of the north still loves the starks. and they need theon as a scapegoat. they use him as a scapegoat for what happened in winterfell (he basically offered himself up on a platter without knowing) and they are still doing it (see the Jeyne marriage Roose uses him for)

And that was pointless, you don't seem to forget, that helped in nothing, nor did he think the ironborn would be disloyal.

Yeah it is, because the deed doesn't matter, it was miller's boys, it is Bran being alive. Involved in a crime that never happened? No stark boys died, that is the thing, and the truth, the lie is that Theon killed them, when in reality it never happened. Which was nothing, no starks were killed.

[A Bastard Snow]

Ah yes, not a single thing. Certainly not putting his own well being at risk to save Jayne Poole's life.

Ah yes I forgot about that.Its not like Theon said he saved her so that the Umbers who were outside WF wouldnt kill him right away...oh wait thats exactly what he did.Theon did that for Theon he did not do it because he cares so much about Jayne.

And I dont seem to recall the spearwifes giving Theon much of a choice in the matter.

[INCBlackbird]

Yes, he most certainly did.

What's worse is that whenever people found out (which was totally inevitable) he'd look even more like an idiot. There were no dire consequences, the North was already won and with it the war was effectively won because Robb would be dead soon. Theon would laughed at a bit like Victarion was with Fair Isle, which lost the Ironmen the war the first time, but he still would be afforded a position of great respect and comfort.

It was motivated by Theon's greed, since he saw himself as his father's heir. I like Theon and think he has many redeeming qualities, but come on, he murdered two children just to save his own ass.

I'm not gonna repeat myself, of course there were dire consequences, I have already explained why, if you don't think there are you don't know how the world works in asoiaf and no it was not inevitable that people would find out, you may have noticed that people still haven't. not to mention that theon wasn't exactly thinking clearly in that moment, he was stuck with no way out until ramsay offered him one and theon played right in his hand and took it.

I don't think it's greedy of theon to want to have a family that accepts him, which is all he wanted. sure he wanted to be his father's heir because he'd learned that that was his right, and it was something he looked forward too because it would mean an end to being disrespected and looked down upon.

yes, he allowed ramsay to murder children to save his own ass, just like jaime, sandor, robb, stannis, daenerys (and anyone else who is fighting a war),

[Lord Reaver]

There is no Stockholm syndrome because Theon Greyjoy was never abused by the Stark family,

Yes, he was. Apart from the obvious beatings, there is the ever-present threat of death at any moment, should Ned decide so.

instead, he was treated like the ward of a high lord, given all the honors and preferences due him with this rank.

No, he wasn't. Come on now, he was afforded less honor and respect than the bastard, Jon.

Which, again, is why he says Eddard Stark is like a second father to him, that Robb was like a brother and that he wishes he died with Robb.

Speculation. The first of those is done while he is still a captive. If you held my life in your hands, you bet I'd say how much I loved you, too. It proves absolutely nothing. And it is pointless to speculate, since we have Theon's thoughts on the matter when he is free. We are outright told that Ned was NOT a father-figure to Theon.

He wishes he'd died after having been tortured by Ramsay, all that means is he thinks being dead would be better than being tortured and disfigured beyond recognition.

[TrueOrFalse]

Ah yes I forgot about that.Its not like Theon said he saved her so that the Umbers who were outside WF wouldnt kill him right away...oh wait thats exactly what he did.Theon did that for Theon he did not do it because he cares so much about Jayne.

And I dont seem to recall the spearwifes giving Theon much of a choice in the matter.

But Theon wants to die. He's said it many times, so it doesn't make sense to think he only saved Jeyne so he wouldn't be killed. "Death did not frighten Theon Greyjoy" and all that.

And the spearwives didn't force him to jump, they had nothing to do with that.

[Cas Stark]

I'm not gonna repeat myself, of course there were dire consequences, I have already explained why, if you don't think there are you don't know how the world works in asoiaf and no it was not inevitable that people would find out, you may have noticed that people still haven't. not to mention that theon wasn't exactly thinking clearly in that moment, he was stuck with no way out until ramsay offered him one and theon played right in his hand and took it.

I don't think it's greedy of theon to want to have a family that accepts him, which is all he wanted. sure he wanted to be his father's heir because he'd learned that that was his right, and it was something he looked forward too because it would mean an end to being disrespected and looked down upon.

yes, he allowed ramsay to murder children to save his own ass, just like jaime, sandor, robb, stannis, daenerys (and anyone else who is fighting a war),

Yes, but he doesn't think it through, does he?

Because, once the "Starks" are dead...he has no more bargaining chips, does he? No. He has no one to ransome, and no one to hold over Winterfell to keep them peaceful.

In the long run, he would have been much better served to keep looking for the Stark boys, instead of giving up and faking their deaths. No one outside of Winterfell still would have known of his failure, but he would give himself time to catch them.

Instead, he seals his own demise when he listens to Ramsay.

[INCBlackbird]

And that was pointless, you don't seem to forget, that helped in nothing, nor did he think the ironborn would be disloyal.

Yeah it is, because the deed doesn't matter, it was miller's boys, it is Bran being alive. Involved in a crime that never happened? No stark boys died, that is the thing, and the truth, the lie is that Theon killed them, when in reality it never happened. Which was nothing, no starks were killed.

how was theon supposed to know that ? does he have the ability to predict the future ?

it matters who did the deed (ramsay) because the north still wants to be loyal to the starks so they have to put it all on theon to keep the north in line. which is pretty much litarly what roose says.

[Illuminated by Fire]

Theon isn't a ward like the Freys or Reeds are, though. He's a hostage, and we know from his chapters that he isn't treated the same as the rest of the kids, let alone like a brother.

So yes, there is clearly reason to assume he was treated differently (i.e. beaten when they were not).

Aside from that, we have clear examples of the other kids doing things far worse than running down stairs (Arya running away, for instance) without getting corporal punishment for it.

He is a hostage and a ward. Being a hostage does not make him 'less' of a ward, he is treated like other wards would have been treated. Him being a hostage does not have to do anything with that in particular. If you have evidence to the contrary, quote it, but the only thing I found was Eddard being distant to Theon, 'He was kind to me, but never warm' are the exact words. It would not even make sense since one part of the purpose that he is there in the first place is to accustom him to the North. Him being there should ensure Balon's loyalty and him being raised there should ensure more a peaceful relationship between the Ironborn and the North. Treating him any different to Jon and Robb would completely negate the second point. A relevant quote from Maester Luwin regarding this:

"There is no shame in that. A lord must protect his smallfolk. Cruel placed breed cruel peoples, Bran, remember that as you deal with these ironmen. Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late."

Beating Theon while not using this a method of discipline on his own children would not fit the word 'gentle'. This being the case would require Eddard and Luwin having a very weird notion of gentling someone. Furthermore would it require Eddard, Catelyn and Luwin being stupid about this thinking Theon would not resent them for such treatment. Additionally Robb would surely have complained, since he saw Theon as a brother and has a strong sense of justice, too. But there is absolutely none of that in the text. If you have actual evidence apart from Theon not mentioning the other Stark children getting beaten while recalling a situation that did not have to do anything with Robb or Jon, quote it. But do not assume things only because they support your view on the matter.

Edit: Regarding the Reeds: I do not think they were wards in the first place, they just stayed at Winterfell after the Harvest Feast, but they did not get tutored by Maester Luwin. In fact Bran says: "I wish you were our wards instead of the Walders." But that only as a remark, since it is not really relevant here.

Edit2: Fixed some spelling mistakes

[Cas Stark]

how was theon supposed to know that ? does he have the ability to predict the future ?

it matters who did the deed (ramsay) because the north still wants to be loyal to the starks so they have to put it all on theon to keep the north in line. which is pretty much litarly what roose says.

Oh please, Ramsay was Theon's prisoner. The blood is on Theon's hands as much as Ramsay, since he could have said no or had Ramsay killed at any time.

[Zoravar Singh]

It's great to see how Theon is villainised for 'killing' two innocent children, but it's all great if Danaerys goes and crucifies 163 Mereenese for a crime she doesn't know they committed, all because: CUZ I HAS DREGONS SO I ALWAYZ KORRECT.

[INCBlackbird]

Yes, but he doesn't think it through, does he?

Because, once the "Starks" are dead...he has no more bargaining chips, does he? No. He has no one to ransome, and no one to hold over Winterfell to keep them peaceful.

In the long run, he would have been much better served to keep looking for the Stark boys, instead of giving up and faking their deaths. No one outside of Winterfell still would have known of his failure, but he would give himself time to catch them.

Instead, he seals his own demise when he listens to Ramsay.

no he didn't think it true, ramsay however, did...

replied to this in a previous post, theon is not a forture teller, he hoped he could hold winterfell, he couldn't know that wasn't gonna work.

aha here we have it "he seals his own demise when he listens to ramsay" so you admit that ramsay manipulated him but blame theon for it... victim blaming 101