in defense of theon greyjoy

[INCBlackbird]

 

His father treated him 1000000x worse when he got back to Pyke opposed to what the Starks ever did to him. Then he gets back his dad Balon could give two shits about him and next gives Asha Iron Fleet and tells Theon to raid fishing villages. After his dad and people there treated him like such shit even though Theon never wanted to leave at age 9 in the first place and yet on his home coming he is treated like this by everyone and his name as a Greyjoy doesnt even get him shit for support, it was never Theons choice to leave with the Starks, that was cause dumbass Balon started a war he couldnt win, loses 2 sons in battle, and his final son as a hostage.

With all the BS they gave him was much worse then any Stark did for him. Shit Ned only took him because he figured he would be better off with him opposed to Robert. He should have just went back to Rob and inform him what will happen, due to how shitty he was treated by his "family" he should have went with the people who were nice to him

Everyone in the islands should have had at least the mindset that Theon at 9 years of age had no choice and not his fault he was a hotsage, which should have allowed better treatment and not disrespecting to the max, where he felt he had to impress the islanders again. And they still (most of them and for the most part) would betray him at the first choice they got

With Robb telling him he was a brother to him, he could have had at least the balls to give him a heads up, not try and impress a bunch of shit bags who dont care for him at all and go and betray a guy who trusted him to go alone because he felt he was that close to him.

Ned and Robb were both much better to Theon opposed to Balon and Asha ever were to him

Theon made his choices because he wanted to impress a father that never cared about him to try to take over a land he doesnt even remember whose gods he does not even care for.

Theon should have picked the person who was actually family to him the one who he spent the happiest days of his life with Robb.And his betrayal of Robb is rewarded with what?A single boat with a dozen men.I have no sympathy for Theon because he has never cared about anyone but himself and he has not done a single redeeming action.

- He picked the wrong family to go on a WAR with (however, it did most likely save his live not going back to Robb). I mean, of course his father would see him as a little pussy since they see themselfs as rough warriors. He declared himself King and his SON comes to ask him to bend his knee to tKotN. Ironborns don't kneel (that easy). He should've shown more respect and I think it would've been better if he would've gone back to Robb.

besides the fact that you simply don't betray family in westeros, like many people have already pointed out. i'd like to make another point :

Theon was never seen as a member of the stark family (although he wanted to be one) except by Robb, but that's not enough to feel welcome, certainly when Robb was in a power position over him (see theon saving bran and robb scorning him for it!) Theon had a difficult time in winterfell and he had conditioned himself to deal with it on his own, two of those ways he coped are very important:

1. he romanticzed not only the starks but also his own family, convincing himself that his dad cared enough about him to not start a new rebellion (notice how in his first chapter everything points towards the fact that Balon was already planning to attack before theon arrived but Theon just doesn't wanna know. he'd rather believe that his dad SOMEHOW knows about his and robb's plan than that he's got his own plan. he's gotten so far that he believes his own lies. the family he thinks about in his head are not at all how they really are but the version theon created of them) which is why I think he's completely incapable of even guessing that his dad might not go along with his plan.

2. longing for his real family and the future where he would be the lord of pyke, when no one could disrespect him and he would simply be accepted and belong.

if theon would even have been able to go back to robb (which he wouldn't) he would never have a real place to belong, because he never belonged with the starks in the first place, he was always looking forward to going home and feel accepted. his own family is his only chance at ever belonging and no matter how bad they treat him, he's not just gonna let go of that (if he doesn't belive there's a chance they'll ever accept him, he'll lie to himself about it. because that's always been his way of coping) and there's also the fact that if he did go back to robb, his father would still have attacked and the north would have demanded robb to execute theon.

I don't think this can even be called a choice. I agree that he betrayed robb as a friend, but it's not as simple as that...

[Leonardo]

It's not the killing of the boys as much as WHY he did it: To save himself from looking like a fool.

[Bittersteel Targaryan]

If you can't defend Theon then can you defend the following:

Robb - His lust cost him the Frey alliance and the war
Catelyn - abduction of Tyrion escalated all of the events
Sansa - her telling Cersei of Neds plans to leave directly led to his death
Jaime - Bran, enough said
Stannis - Renly, shadow babies
Davos - betrayed his King by getting Edric Storm to safety
Jon - betreayed his vows to the NW, then betrayed Ygritte, then again betrays NW


Basically all are flawed and have issues

I can defend Davos he did what he did because of his own belief in Stanis' justness. It was wrong and unjust to kill an innocent child and he knew that would go against everything he believed of Stannis. It might have been stupid but in the end it will redeem Stannis. Without Davos Mel would ruin Stannis.

[INCBlackbird]

It's not the killing of the boys as much as WHY he did it: To save himself from looking like a fool.

but looking like a fool would have dire consequences. Theon had been trying to keep his men loyal and that would push them over the edge and probably abandon him, his family would never respect him and would abandon him too. in the end he would probably be left alone in winterfell, the northmen would take him captive and kill him horribly and he would go in history as the weakest of all greyjoys the one who let two kids escape. to theon (and about everyone else in these books) that is a faith worse then death... so this is exactly what I'm talking about, don't simplefy his character! Theon was stuck in an emotional turmoil with no way out until ramsay offered one. 90% of the people, especially the people in asoiaf would have done the same.

[INCBlackbird]

I agree that Theon didn't really owe the Starks anything, but he did owe Robb Stark his allegiance. Robb always treated Theon like a brother, a trusted member of his council, and put trust in him to make an alliance with the Greyjoys for mutual well being.

Theon's biggest mistakes IMO are 2 things:

- not calling Balon out on his ridiculously short sighted plan to fight the North for freedom from the south. That's like Hawaii attacking Guam for independence from America. It makes zero sense. It would make perfect sense if Balon didn't want independence, but instead wanted to get in good with the IT.

- allowing the miller boys to be killed and past off as Starks. This was cruel and has hurt him in the long run. No one will believe him if he tries to tell them he didn't have the Starks killed. And of they do, then how will killing innocent boys look?

I think theon did his best to change Balon's mind but his mind was made up long LONG ago... I don't think even asha could have changed it if she tried. Balon was too blinded by hatred and bitterness for the starks.

I do agree on this, I think it would have been better for theon in the sense that the north would have hated him less, I am not sure if in the end it would have turned out better, i'm pretty sure his men would have abandoned him, his family exiled him and he would still have become ramsay's toy. though, robb might have tried to find him, bolton probably wouldn't have told robb about what they were doing and maybe robb would have discovered theon was at the dreadfort and considered bolto a traitor for keeping it secret. who knows ?

[marsyao]

Thing is Theon is an arrogant dumb prick. Well, least he was. Jaime is arrogant, but charming and smart, so people like him. Also he's badass.

The worst thing Theon did was killing the little boys. His treason towards Robb was kind of bad, but I mean... It is war. He was in a position where he would have to betray someone: Robb or his father and his people. He made a choice.

It should be other way around, we should not use today's moral stand to judge Theon's action, in the world of Westero, kiling tow small children of smallfolkes in the war time is not that kind of big deal as we see it in our world, however betraying your king or your friends are far horrible crime

[marsyao]

besides the fact that you simply don't betray family in westeros, like many people have already pointed out. i'd like to make another point :

Theon was never seen as a member of the stark family (although he wanted to be one) except by Robb,

Thought this is true, but Theon did He swore fealty to Bobb as his King, that oath means big deal in the Westero, of course you can side your family against your King (like Stannis did in the rebellion), but still this action would be consider treason

[BastardlyRock]

If you can't defend Theon then can you defend the following:

Robb - His lust cost him the Frey alliance and the war

Catelyn - abduction of Tyrion escalated all of the events

Sansa - her telling Cersei of Neds plans to leave directly led to his death

Jaime - Bran, enough said

Stannis - Renly, shadow babies

Davos - betrayed his King by getting Edric Storm to safety

Jon - betreayed his vows to the NW, then betrayed Ygritte, then again betrays NW

Basically all are flawed and have issues

I love that the worst thing you can say about Davos is basically: He saved an innocent kid's life. :lmao:

As for Theon, despicable? Yes, at times, all the great characters here are. Redeemed? I wouldn't say he is entirely "redeemed" (his saving Jeyne does help) but I would say he's paid a very dear price, in a way that would make death a mercy.

In fact for him death is a mercy at this point, as evidenced by his thoughts in tWoW

[INCBlackbird]

Thought this is true, but Theon did He swore fealty to Bobb as his King, that oath means big deal in the Westero, of course you can side your family against your King (like Stannis did in the rebellion), but still this action would be consider treason

he didn't swear an oath to robb in the books (only in the show) and it wouldn't make sense for him to swear an oath! that would mean treason to his own family and robb wouldn't demand that of him.

[BastardlyRock]

Oh, and just to make myself clear - I very much agree with the OP here :cheers: Theon is one of the most interesting, best written, and largely written off characters in the series. I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to be in his situation, and the mistakes he's made he certainly feels horrible about, as opposed to some of the series more sociopathic characters who never feel any remorse. *cough* Cersei *cough* Ramsay

[BrienneofQarth]

I agree, I love Theon as a character, and by no means think he deserves the hate.

But the thing is, the Starks never mistreated Theon when he was with them. I have to argue with this. I can't agree with the whole 'The Starks were asking for it' side of the argument. While he may have been unhappy, and the Starks may have not had the sunshine and cuddles approach to hostages, his situation was not comparable to how, for example, Sansa was treated by Joffrey, or even how the Starks treated Jaime. His betrayal of Robb seems pretty over the top as retaliation goes.

But then again, so was Theon's punishment for that betrayal.

[INCBlackbird]

I agree, I love Theon as a character, and by no means think he deserves the hate.

But the thing is, the Starks never mistreated Theon when he was with them. I have to argue with this. I can't agree with the whole 'The Starks were asking for it' side of the argument. While he may have been unhappy, and the Starks may have not had the sunshine and cuddles approach to hostages, his situation was not comparable to how, for example, Sansa was treated by Joffrey, or even how the Starks treated Jaime. His betrayal of Robb seems pretty over the top as retaliation goes.

But then again, so was Theon's punishment for that betrayal.

I agree that the starks didn't nessacarily mistreat him. although he did get beaten and it's pretty clear that ned stark's kids didn't, I do have a problem with that and the fact that Ned took him to execusions (I know he did it to treat him fairly, but it's not so difficult to put yourself in theon's shoes and think that despite good intensions that might be pretty cruel), but all in all, I do not blame them, Ned wasn't perfect and I don't demand him to be (he wouldn't be realistic if he were perfect) theon's situation was mostly damaging because he was an innocent child who had to live half his life under threat of death, which is not the stark's fault, it's the system's fault and all in all I think the starks did the best they could for him, while still understandably putting themselves first (not getting close to theon because ned knew he might have to put him to death one day)

however, theon did not betray robb because he wanted to retalliate, he did not really have a choice in the matter (I talked about this in detail earlier in the thread) and he took winterfell not because he wanted to take revenge on the starks or the people of winterfell (if he had, he wouldn't have taken it with the least bloodshed possible, while doing his best to protect the people of winterfell and telling himself that robb could have the riverlands, while he kept winterfell (really theon?)) theon was not over his desire to be a stark, to belong in winterfell (where he didn't get the treatment his family gave him) he was just completely delusional that he could get it this way.

[Illuminated by Fire]

I agree that the starks didn't nessacarily mistreat him. although he did get beaten and it's pretty clear that ned stark's kids didn't,[...]

I don't want to go into the other points (not now at least, maybe I go into them in another post), even though I disagree with some of them, but this one sticks out to me. You said this several times in other threads but that does not make that statement any more true. What evidence do you have that the other Stark childreen did not get beaten? The relevant part in the text is the following one (and the only one where beatings are mentioned if I remember correctly):

As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst trashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beating his brothers used to give him back on Pyke.

There is nothing that indicates that Theon was the only one that got beaten at Winterfell. He was a hostage and a ward and as a ward he was raised at the side of Robb and Jon (because they were in his age category). Bran was probably too young to get corporal punishment (maybe not for Ned, but for sure for Catelyn), Jon has other problems in his POV to mention his punishments at Winterfell and we do not even have a Robb POV. It does not fit at all to think that Robb and Jon would not get the same punishment for knocking Old Nan to the floor as Theon if they did such a thing, since she could easily have died because of it.

Edit: Posted it to soon. Added the last paragraph.

[INCBlackbird]

I don't want to go into the other points (not now at least, maybe I go into them in another post), even though I disagree with some of them, but this one sticks out to me. You said this several times in other threads but that does not make that statement any more true. What evidence do you have that the other Stark childreen did not get beaten? The relevant part in the text is the following one (and the only one where beatings are mentioned if I remember correctly):

As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst trashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beating his brothers used to give him back on Pyke.

There is nothing that indicates that Theon was the only one that got beaten at Winterfell. He was a hostage and a ward and as a ward he was raised at the side of Robb and Jon (because they were in his age category). Bran was probably too young to get corporal punishment (maybe not for Ned, but for sure for Catelyn), Jon has other problems in his POV to mention his punishments at Winterfell and we do not even have a Robb POV. It does not fit at all to think that Robb and Jon would not get the same punishment for knocking Old Nan to the floor as Theon if they did such a thing, since she could easily have died because of it.

Edit: Posted it to soon. Added the last paragraph.

well, for one, none of the stark children ever remeber getting beaten. and Bran, Sansa and Arya all directly disobey their parents (and what theon did was an accident and got him THE WORST thrashing, which means there were more for lesser offences we can assume) in the first book and none of them get beaten (or even punished at all if I remember correctly) maybe Bran was too young, we can't know that for sure. as far as I can tell Those beatings were exclusive to Theon, of course there is no proof, but according to what we know I'm assuming it's the case.

[TrueOrFalse]

I don't want to go into the other points (not now at least, maybe I go into them in another post), even though I disagree with some of them, but this one sticks out to me. You said this several times in other threads but that does not make that statement any more true. What evidence do you have that the other Stark childreen did not get beaten? The relevant part in the text is the following one (and the only one where beatings are mentioned if I remember correctly):

As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst trashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beating his brothers used to give him back on Pyke.

There is nothing that indicates that Theon was the only one that got beaten at Winterfell. He was a hostage and a ward and as a ward he was raised at the side of Robb and Jon (because they were in his age category). Bran was probably too young to get corporal punishment (maybe not for Ned, but for sure for Catelyn), Jon has other problems in his POV to mention his punishments at Winterfell and we do not even have a Robb POV. It does not fit at all to think that Robb and Jon would not get the same punishment for knocking Old Nan to the floor as Theon if they did such a thing, since she could easily have died because of it.

Edit: Posted it to soon. Added the last paragraph.

I think if GRRM wanted us to believe that all the kids were beaten for certain things and treated fairly, he would have mentioned it in other POV's. He's very careful about subtle things like that and there's always a reason as to why he adds or doesn't add certain information. It's not an accident that Theon is the only one who mentions being beaten in Winterfell. Sorry, but Jon being too busy or having too many other things going on to recall his punishments doesn't cut it. If Jon had been beaten at Winterfell, GRRM would have mentioned it so then there could be no misconception about Theon being the only one. But he didn't and that is not an accident.

[Illuminated by Fire]

I think if GRRM wanted us to believe that all the kids were beaten for certain things and treated fairly, he would have mentioned it in other POV's. He's very careful about subtle things like that and there's always a reason as to why he adds or doesn't add certain information. It's not an accident that Theon is the only one who mentions being beaten in Winterfell. Sorry, but Jon being too busy or having other too many other things going on to recall his punishments doesn't cut it. If Jon had been beaten at Winterfell, GRRM would have mentioned it so then there could be no misconception about Theon being the only one. But he didn't and that is not an accident.

I do not get why this kind of argument is so popular. No, he would not. The thoughts of the characters are relevant to their situation. Jon's conflict is a different one. There is no question that he admires Eddard Stark and sees him as his father. His conflict stems from him being a bastard which, despite being raised with the other Stark children, puts a barrier between them and Jon which is not easily negated. He is a Snow and they are Starks and him seeing them as his family but always being seen as a bastard is his conflict and what motivates him to join the Nights Watch. Him being punished or not at Winterfell is not relevant to this conflict at all because it would not change his opinion (if he were never beaten it makes no sense to mention it, if it was common practice it does not make sense either). Why should it be mentioned then in Jon's point of view? Because it adds context to one anecdote in a Theon chapter later on? It does not make a difference for Jon, therefore it is not mentioned in a Jon chapter. And the memory in Theon's chapter is one isolated anectode about himself, not about Robb or Jon, so there is no reason to mention them. The things need to make sense in context. Just saying GRRM would for sure have mentioned it does not cut it as a reason because you do not know if that is really the case.

well, for one, none of the stark children ever remeber getting beaten. and Bran, Sansa and Arya all directly disobey their parents (and what theon did was an accident and got him THE WORST thrashing, which means there were more for lesser offences we can assume) in the first book and none of them get beaten (or even punished at all if I remember correctly) maybe Bran was too young, we can't know that for sure. as far as I can tell Those beatings were exclusive to Theon, of course there is no proof, but according to what we know I'm assuming it's the case.

There is not only no proof, but it is not even consistent to assume that they were exclusive to Theon. The whole point of being a ward is that you are raised with other noble children as though as you were brothers. If you read the Bran chapters in ACoK you see that the Freys are tutored with Bran and Rickon and Meera even refers to them as foster brothers to Bran. There is no reason whatsoever to think that these punishments were exlusive to Theon since the whole idea of being a ward is being raised as a brother to the other children (him being a hostage is a reason for a certain distance, but not for neglecting this task).

In regards to Arya and Sansa: That is probably because they are girls. The different gender standards are present in all of Westeros and since there is an emphasis on boys needing to be strong and tough they probably get different punishments. As I mentioned, Bran was most likely too young and Catelyn was very protective of him so that is most likely the reason for absence of corporal punishment in this matter. Regarding the point that it was an accident: Of course it was. It was a punishment for his recklessness, not for ill intent. I do not even know what Eddard would have done if it was ill intent, because that is a complete different dimension.

[RainGhost]

I think if GRRM wanted us to believe that all the kids were beaten for certain things and treated fairly, he would have mentioned it in other POV's. He's very careful about subtle things like that and there's always a reason as to why he adds or doesn't add certain information. It's not an accident that Theon is the only one who mentions being beaten in Winterfell. Sorry, but Jon being too busy or having too many other things going on to recall his punishments doesn't cut it. If Jon had been beaten at Winterfell, GRRM would have mentioned it so then there could be no misconception about Theon being the only one. But he didn't and that is not an accident.

I disagree. I think it would be perfectly normal for boys in Westeros to get beatings but there would be no reason for anyone else to mention it unless they were telling an anecdote. I'm sure Robb and Jon got a few beatings too.

A very good thread - I think too many people don't understand Theon. Theon never belonged anywhere and the really tragic thing is that he ends up betraying the one person who ever treated him like family, which leads to Robb's death and Theon's torture. I understand why Theon went along with his father's plan but what he was thinking when he took Winterfell... How he never thought of it as betraying Robb. One of Theon's biggest flaws is not thinking.

[TrueOrFalse]

I do not get why this kind of argument is so popular. No, he would not. The thoughts of the characters are relevant to their situation. Jon's conflict is a different one. There is no question that he admires Eddard Stark and sees him as his father. His conflict stems from him being a bastard which, despite being raised with the other Stark children, puts a barrier between them and Jon which is not easily negated. He is a Snow and they are Starks and him seeing them as his family but always being seen as a bastard is his conflict and what motivates him to join the Nights Watch. Him being punished or not at Winterfell is not relevant to this conflict at all because it would not change his opinion (if he were never beaten it makes no sense to mention it, if it was common practice it does not make sense either). Why should it be mentioned then in Jon's point of view? Because it adds context to one anecdote in a Theon chapter later on? It does not make a difference for Jon, therefore it is not mentioned in a Jon chapter. And the memory in Theon's chapter is one isolated anectode about himself, not about Robb or Jon, so there is no reason to mention them. The things need to make sense in context. Just saying GRRM would for sure have mentioned it does not cut it as a reason because you do not know if that is really the case.

There is not only no proof, but it is not even consistent to assume that they were exclusive to Theon. The whole point of being a ward is that you are raised with other noble children as though as you were brothers. If you read the Bran chapters in ACoK you see that the Freys are tutored with Bran and Rickon and Meera even refers to them as foster brothers to Bran. There is no reason whatsoever to think that these punishments were exlusive to Theon since the whole idea of being a ward is being raised as a brother to the other children (him being a hostage is a reason for a certain distance, but not for neglecting this task).

In regards to Arya and Sansa: That is probably because they are girls. The different gender standards are present in all of Westeros and since there is an emphasis on boys needing to be strong and tough they probably get different punishments. As I mentioned, Bran was most likely too young and Catelyn was very protective of him so that is most likely the reason for absence of corporal punishment in this matter. Regarding the point that it was an accident: Of course it was. It was a punishment for his recklessness, not for ill intent. I do not even know what Eddard would have done if it was ill intent, because that is a complete different dimension.

I don't think it's impossible that GRRM might add something to a chapter to give context to even the smallest anecdote in another chapter. The books are so incredibly detailed and linked together, I don't think it's something that's completely outside the bounds of reason but I understand what you're saying.

And if we were to assume that Bran was too young to be beaten and Sansa/Arya weren't beaten because they are girls then it's still a bit odd that they were able to disobey orders and things like that without any punishment, not even a stern talking to, yet Theon gets a thrashing for an accident. Yes, he was reckless but Bran was also reckless for continuing to climb having been told to stop. Like I said, I get that Bran may have been too young for a beating but his punishment never went beyond a fond "Oh, Bran, what will we do with you?" kinda thing.

And I still think GRRM includes all information for a reason. I don't think any anecdotes are added in with no purpose. He need not have mentioned Theon being beaten at all if it's not significant. Then there would be no way for someone like me to misconstrue this but I guess it's all open to interpretation, like everything else. :dunno:

I admit I could be completely wrong about this, but it's just what I think.

[Wmarshal]

- Ramsay came up with the plan to kill the miller boys, he manipulated Theon into saying yes to it, he did the deed and Roose and Ramsay later acknowledge that Theon was basically their scapegoat for the whole thing. (which btw, makes him still responsible, but there's a big difference between this and "he killed two kids" which is what the fandom usually makes of it)

He didn't manipulate him, he came with him with a plan, Theon decided to do it. It was entirely Theon's move, it was he who led his men there and he that okayed Ramsay to do it, for him to keep face. He killed those kids as Tywin killed Elia.

[Pod The Impaler]

Theon made his choices because he wanted to impress a father that never cared about him to try to take over a land he doesnt even remember whose gods he does not even care for.

Theon should have picked the person who was actually family to him the one who he spent the happiest days of his life with Robb.

Should have, but didn't.

Theon is like a foster kid "rescued" by the state from some criminal family. The new family he fosters with may love him more and treat him better, but he will always know he is not one of them and still goes back to a life of crime, maybe even crime against the family that was so nice to him. Why? Well, minus a lot of psycho-babble, because the kid feels that what he wants to be is not what he is.

Yes, it was wrong in every way one can be wrong, and Theon pays for it, horribly. The whole realm pays for it. The North and the Ironborn pay for it. But how much choice did he have? Betray your friends and die, or betray your family and die. (Or just commit suicide rather than choose either one?)

The person to blame is Balon. His son returns home, and is treated with suspicion and disrespect. Balon chooses to unleash some idiotic scheme, basically out of misguided spite, and forces his son to take part in it or be branded a weakling and turncloak.