in defense of theon greyjoy

[Wmarshal]

They're people mostly ahead of their times kinda, Arya's very character is so alien from the Middle Ages it's shocking.

Also, the Northern and Rivermen armies burned a lot of crops in the Riverlands to deny the Lannisters from supplies, leading to thousands of kids to starvation, there is any passage pointing that Edmure, Robb and cia aren't related to it?

Yeah, that happened when Edmure was captured and Brynden took over. I think Robb is a sinner as well, when he unleashed Karstark on the Westerners.

[Cas Stark]

when did I ever say he isn't responsible ? cause I clearly remember stating in my original post that he is still responsible, it's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

you simply cannot say that being a prisoner under threat of death would make a good childhood that wouldn't damage the child. and he did have stockholm syndrome:

Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages(theon was a hostage) express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors(we have established that theon has these), sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims (threat of death), who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness (after thinking about the thrashing he emmediatly compares it to the beatings his brothers gave him also "he was kind to me but never warm").

all of this does not mean theon was not responsible at all for his actions, it just means he is a grey character that was very well written because he is a product of his environment, just like real people are.

Well, if he has Stockholm syndrome for real, then he's not responsible for anything, because he's mentally damaged if not deranged. And so, when he wishes he died with his real "brother" Robb Stark, that his just Stockholm snydrome talking, too. And so, the same, his guilt must be a figment then either of his Stockholm syndrome and is then not real either.

He's quite uninteresting then, because you deprive him of any real emotional conflict. His pull toward the Starks and identification with so much of their way of thinking isn't real, it's a syndrome, nothing more than a function of his "captivity"..

[Wmarshal]

It's not, but you're dealing with an entirely different set of morals here. I guarantee you, all these "honorable" Northmen who want so desperately to punish Theon for Bran and Rickon's "deaths" won't give a damn about the boys when they find out they were just two low born Miller's sons. Just like when no one but Arya gave a damn when The Hound killed Mycah. To them, he was only a Butcher's boy, after all. Even to the characters who in others ways seem so "honorable". What Theon did was wrong, but if you were to judge them all as harshly as Theon is judged, you'd have to look very hard indeed for an "honorable" character in this series.

I do look hard, and I find Edmure, Stannis, Doran, Dany, Aegon, and Jon.

[TrueOrFalse]

I do look hard, and I find Edmure, Stannis, Doran, Dany, Aegon, and Jon.

I hate to break it to you, but even those characters would not care about two low born boys they've never met. Especially not Dany and Stannis, come on now.

[Wmarshal]

Dany would so care, as would Stannis, Dany has killed children but largely bcause her ignores and stupidy, but she shows care, ask Hazzea. Stannis believes in justice for all, he shied away from blind attack on smallfolk. I will give you Dany, but not Stannis.

[sweetsunray]

Yes, he was reckless but Bran was also reckless for continuing to climb having been told to stop. Like I said, I get that Bran may have been too young for a beating but his punishment never went beyond a fond "Oh, Bran, what will we do with you?" kinda thing.

Actually Bran does get punished for it at least once. In GoT, in Bran's chapter where he's climbing all over Winterfell before he discovers Cersei and Jaime together he's remembering how his father sent him into the Godswood and he had to stay there for a whole NIGHT and ALONE to reflect about his disobedience. But he ends up sleeping in the highest tree where Eddard finds him in the morning and Eddard decides it's useless to forbid him the climbing. No, he didn't get a trashing, but he was forced to be in a creepy place all night, outside and by himself. It sounds like punishment to me.

[INCBlackbird]

Well, if he has Stockholm syndrome for real, then he's not responsible for anything, because he's mentally damaged if not deranged. And so, when he wishes he died with his real "brother" Robb Stark, that his just Stockholm snydrome talking, too. And so, the same, his guilt must be a figment then either of his Stockholm syndrome and is then not real either.

He's quite uninteresting then, because you deprive him of any real emotional conflict. His pull toward the Starks and identification with so much of their way of thinking isn't real, it's a syndrome, nothing more than a function of his "captivity"..

"Well, if he has Stockholm syndrome for real, then he's not responsible for anything" your words, not mine.... he is mentally damaged, yes, like many people are (including myself), that is a very far way from deranged. Robb is a different matter, he was the only friend he truely had in winterfell and they did truely love eachother, however there was still a power inbalance because theon was a captive. there's also the fact that robb had many people that adored him, theon had no one but robb (which made robb more important to theon then theon to robb) I could write you an entire book about them but no time now. but if you're interested here you go : http://princekraken.tumblr.com/post/88391659899/a-theon-greyjoy-robb-stark-manifesto

to me it makes his character more interesting, because like I said, it makes him a product of his environment = realistic character.

[Wmarshal]

And like any product of there environment he should judged like the adult he is.

[INCBlackbird]

Actually Bran does get punished for it at least once. In GoT, in Bran's chapter where he's climbing all over Winterfell before he discovers Cersei and Jaime together he's remembering how his father sent him into the Godswood and he had to stay there for a whole NIGHT and ALONE to reflect about his disobedience. But he ends up sleeping in the highest tree where Eddard finds him in the morning and Eddard decides it's useless to forbid him the climbing. No, he didn't get a trashing, but he was forced to be in a creepy place all night, outside and by himself. It sounds like punishment to me.

oh wow! I forgot about that! that does indeed seem like a severe punishment, I retract my statement that theon was the only one getting these punishments.

[INCBlackbird]

And like any product of there environment he should judged like the adult he is.

and judging a person means taking into account that they are a product of their environment.

[Jasta11]

Well, if he has Stockholm syndrome for real, then he's not responsible for anything, because he's mentally damaged if not deranged. And so, when he wishes he died with his real "brother" Robb Stark, that his just Stockholm snydrome talking, too. And so, the same, his guilt must be a figment then either of his Stockholm syndrome and is then not real either.

He's quite uninteresting then, because you deprive him of any real emotional conflict. His pull toward the Starks and identification with so much of their way of thinking isn't real, it's a syndrome, nothing more than a function of his "captivity"..

Yeah, I think one cannot deny Theon has a real attachment, if not to the Starks as a whole, then to Robb and of some of his experiences in Winterfell. He has fond memories of the place several times when he's there. Interestingly, he's devoid of any good memory (that I know of) of Pyke, yet being carried off at 9 he should remember some things other than being beaten by his brothers so badly being ''thrashed'' at Winterfell seems gentle in comparison. Not saying that justifies the whole hostage thing, but it could mean he was actually happier in Winterfell despite it all.

I mean, the entire point of Theon's character pre-Reek is his intense conflict of loyalty between his Greyjoy blood and his Stark sympathies. If they always treated him like shit and he truly never cared about them, there would be no such conflict, like there wasn't for Sansa. Writing it off as ''stockholm syndrome'' vastly cheapens his character and arc to me, and so do the attempts to remove his responsibility in his bad deeds. Sure, Ramsay led him towards the boy's murders, but he chose to do it, whatever other circumstances there were. Just like, say, Lysa isn't absolved because LF manipulated her.

And those discussion about ''is the murder acceptable in-universe or not'' seems a bit odd when we know, from Theon's own PoV, that he feels immense remorse for his act, despite not exactly being a champion of the common people beforehand. He feels he did something very bad indeed. Sure, the Ramsay treatment and assorted mindfuckery didn't help at all, but his guilt didn't spawn out of nowhere.

[Cas Stark]

"Well, if he has Stockholm syndrome for real, then he's not responsible for anything" your words, not mine.... he is mentally damaged, yes, like many people are (including myself), that is a very far way from deranged. Robb is a different matter, he was the only friend he truely had in winterfell and they did truely love eachother, however there was still a power inbalance because theon was a captive. there's also the fact that robb had many people that adored him, theon had no one but robb (which made robb more important to theon then theon to robb) I could write you an entire book about them but no time now. but if you're interested here you go : http://princekraken.tumblr.com/post/88391659899/a-theon-greyjoy-robb-stark-manifesto

to me it makes his character more interesting, because like I said, it makes him a product of his environment = realistic character.

We will have to agree to disagree.

The Stockholm Syndrome definition you posted says quite clearly that the positive feelings that the victim has for his/her captors is irrational. It is the victim's response to abuse and trauma to identify with the "aggressor". So, either he has it, or he doesn't. If he does, then all positive feelings he has for the Starks are irrational manifestations of his trauma and him identifying with his abusers.

Of course Stockholm syndrome is laughable, since, again, as the cite says, less than 10% of actual kidnap victims develop it, and Theon shows no signs of irrationality where his hostage status was concerned, nor does he over identify with the Starks in any manner.

But, you can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him a psychological pathology then you have to carry it through and it has to be applied to all of his feelings about the Starks and Winterfell, and in that light, none of the things that make his arc so poignant to me anyway, would be real or legitimate, only manifestations of his syndrome, so like I said, he becomes a completely dull one dimensional character who doesn't even control really his own agency, everything he does rests with his psychological condition.

[Wmarshal]

and judging a person means taking into account that they are a product of their environment.

Yeah, and Ned raised him as he does his own sons murder isn't okay.

[INCBlackbird]

Yeah, I think one cannot deny Theon has a real attachment, if not to the Starks as a whole, then to Robb and of some of his experiences in Winterfell. He has fond memories of the place several times when he's there. Interestingly, he's devoid of any good memory (that I know of) of Pyke, yet being carried off at 9 he should remember some things other than being beaten by his brothers so badly being ''thrashed'' at Winterfell seems gentle in comparison. Not saying that justifies the whole hostage thing, but it could mean he was actually happier in Winterfell despite it all.

I mean, the entire point of Theon's character pre-Reek is his intense conflict of loyalty between his Greyjoy blood and his Stark sympathies. If they always treated him like shit and he truly never cared about them, there would be no such conflict, like there wasn't for Sansa. Writing it off as ''stockholm syndrome'' vastly cheapens his character and arc to me, and so do the attempts to remove his responsibility in his bad deeds. Sure, Ramsay led him towards the boy's murders, but he chose to do it, whatever other circumstances there were. Just like, say, Lysa isn't absolved because LF manipulated her.

And those discussion about ''is the murder acceptable in-universe or not'' seems a bit odd when we know, from Theon's own PoV, that he feels immense remorse for his act, despite not exactly being a champion of the common people beforehand. He feels he did something very bad indeed. Sure, the Ramsay treatment and assorted mindfuckery didn't help at all, but his guilt didn't spawn out of nowhere.

he is in conflict because he has stockholm syndrome, much like real life victims of stockholm syndrome are often in conflict about weither or not to "betray" their captors to the police.

how does it cheapen his character when it is something that often happens in real life because it is part of human psychology. it's the mind tryjng to protect itself, it's the victim dealing with conflicting feelings of fear and thankfullness. the conflict is there BECAUSE he has stockholm syndrome. if he didn't have stockholm syndrome he would simply be able to think "the starks were good to me but they were my captors I don't owe them anything, the greyjoys are my family" because that is the truth. but theon has stockholm syndrome which means that deep down he believes he owes his captors because as stated in the definition of what stockholm syndrome is "he mistakes the lack of abuse as an act of kindness"

and none of this is about absolving him, as stated in my original post. it's about analysing the character and explaining why he did the things he did because he is not a black and white character but a realistic character who is a product of his envirment (just like real people)

[sweetsunray]

oh wow! I forgot about that! that does indeed seem like a severe punishment, I retract my statement that theon was the only one getting these punishments.

Well, I'd admit that Bran didn't take it as punishment all that much, and it certainly wasn't effective. But it was intended by Eddard to be a punishment.

It's even a personal ironic one for me, because I've been working on a fiction myself for years and my protagonist gets punished to stand all night in a deserted hall at the age of six at some point. And it's not seen as a light punishment. (I've only started to read GoT the past few weeks, so the similar punishment jumped out to me).

[INCBlackbird]

We will have to agree to disagree.

The Stockholm Syndrome definition you posted says quite clearly that the positive feelings that the victim has for his/her captors is irrational. It is the victim's response to abuse and trauma to identify with the "aggressor". So, either he has it, or he doesn't. If he does, then all positive feelings he has for the Starks are irrational manifestations of his trauma and him identifying with his abusers.

Of course Stockholm syndrome is laughable, since, again, as the cite says, less than 10% of actual kidnap victims develop it, and Theon shows no signs of irrationality where his hostage status was concerned, nor does he over identify with the Starks in any manner.

But, you can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him a psychological pathology then you have to carry it through and it has to be applied to all of his feelings about the Starks and Winterfell, and in that light, none of the things that make his arc so poignant to me anyway, would be real or legitimate, only manifestations of his syndrome, so like I said, he becomes a completely dull one dimensional character who doesn't even control really his own agency, everything he does rests with his psychological condition.

yeah, I don't think we're ever gonna get out of this...

no the defenition states that the victim mistakes the lack of abuse as an act of kindness. and those thoughts are irrational because they are still a victim. in theon's case, he was a child shipped off to go live with a bunch of stragers, whom, in his mind, were responsible for burning down his home and killing his brothers (some of which he had witnessed and had nightmares over). in the mind of a child this is a simplified situation, his family were the good guys, the starks were the bad guys. so what does he expect ? to be treated cruely, when this does not happen he is greatfull. which is an irrational thought because the starks didn't not abuse him as an act of kindness, they didn't abuse him because they didn't have to. because they weren't "the badguys" much like when a robber takes someone hostage they will not abuse them if they don't have to. but the hostage will expect to be hurt, since society tells us that a person is either good or they are bad and when they are bad they will hurt you.

it's not because he has stockholm syndrome that you have to see stockholm syndrome as something black and white either, of course it differs from person to person, depending on the situation, and theon's situation is very different from any of the modern day ones, because in his case it happens in a midieval setting. that doesn't mean the psychological effect isn't the same.

[TrueOrFalse]

And those discussion about ''is the murder acceptable in-universe or not'' seems a bit odd when we know, from Theon's own PoV, that he feels immense remorse for his act, despite not exactly being a champion of the common people beforehand. He feels he did something very bad indeed. Sure, the Ramsay treatment and assorted mindfuckery didn't help at all, but his guilt didn't spawn out of nowhere.

Well, of course Theon feels immense guilt for that because he's a human being (well, a fictional one) and that's a normal human reaction to something like that. The point I was personally making was not whether murder is acceptable in Westeros or not, but that their society treats it differently than ours. Bran and Rickon's lives are worth a million Miller's boys in their world. When the truth comes out, no one will care that those two boys were killed, apart from those who were directly involved ie. Theon and the boys' parents (Obviously Ramsay would not care). But when it's Bran and Rickon Stark, EVERYONE feels outraged. That's just how their society works.

(And I'm not saying it's ok that the two boys were killed, in case anyone gets the wrong idea. :P)

[Cas Stark]

yeah, I don't think we're ever gonna get out of this...

no the defenition states that the victim mistakes the lack of abuse as an act of kindness. and those thoughts are irrational because they are still a victim. in theon's case, he was a child shipped off to go live with a bunch of stragers, whom, in his mind, were responsible for burning down his home and killing his brothers (some of which he had witnessed and had nightmares over). in the mind of a child this is a simplified situation, his family were the good guys, the starks were the bad guys. so what does he expect ? to be treated cruely, when this does not happen he is greatfull. which is an irrational thought because the starks didn't not abuse him as an act of kindness, they didn't abuse him because they didn't have to. because they weren't "the badguys" much like when a robber takes someone hostage they will not abuse them if they don't have to. but the hostage will expect to be hurt, since society tells us that a person is either good or they are bad and when they are bad they will hurt you.

it's not because he has stockholm syndrome that you have to see stockholm syndrome as something black and white either, of course it differs from person to person, depending on the situation, and theon's situation is very different from any of the modern day ones, because in his case it happens in a midieval setting. that doesn't mean the psychological effect isn't the same.

You can't pull out one or two things that fit and then slap on a 20th century label that was developed to explain a fairly narrow type of kidnapping hostage situations that are nothing like the Theon situation and ignore all the rest of the criteria.

You can't keep the one line about lack of abuse as kindness when the entire syndrome is predicated on ABUSE that happened, which is why the victim becomes so fearful in the first place, and if you go a little further than wiki for definitions you will see how poorly they fit Theon's situation.

And, if he has Stockholm Syndrome then all of his feelings about the Starks are a result of his trauma, none are geniune, that is what Stockholm Syndrome IS, irrational positive feelings toward your captors and abusers. If he has SS, then his feelings are not to be taken seriously as anything but a manifestation of his psychological trauma. He neither has any reason to feel guilty about what his actions brought to the Stark family, nor is the guilt he thinks he feel even real.

How dull. If I really believed this I would just hope he dies ASAP and never hold out any hope that he might further redeem himself by some action that helps restore the Stark family...because that would be even more crazy on his part and not even to be taken seriously, because he's mentally unbalanced.

Stockholm Syndrome is what he feels for Ramsay when he is Reek. That's the real thing. Where he internalizes the abuse as his fault, where he wishes to please his master, where he does anything to prove to the man who tortured him that he's a good captive.

It bears no resemblance to his time with House Stark. None.

[sweetsunray]

Stockholm Syndrome is a real phenomenon where for the sake of their own safety and life a hostage bonds and empathizes with the hostage taker. In a long term abusive relationship it's called trauma-bonding. It are the dynamics that makes for an abused victim to defend their partner/parent/child for abusing them.

Not every hostage situation creates stockholm syndrome. There are several things the hostage taker or abuser must do: threaten, abuse and punish the victim even when they're doing nothing wrong, and sometimes out of the blue refrain from punishing the victim even when they did somethign they expect to incurr the wrath of the abuser. The refraining of the expected punishment will be regarded as kindness then. And sometimes the abuser or hostage taker rewards the victim. In order to survive, the victim then will try to predict the abuser's behaviour and anticipate ways to please him or her. The main point is that there must be a threat to safety (physical or mental), that there is abusive punishment witnessed or experienced (and often) and that sometimes there is a reward or no punishment, and that the reward-punishment patterns are unpredictable and erratic.

Personally I see little evidence for Theon bonding in such a way to the Starks. He does not have to walk on eggshells. He definitely shows Stockholm Syndrome as Reek though, because Ramsay knows exactly how to make someone bond through abuse.

BTW it's not a mental disease, but a survival tactic.

[Jasta11]

Well, of course Theon feels immense guilt for that because he's a human being (well, a fictional one) and that's a normal human reaction to something like that. The point I was personally making was not whether murder was acceptable in Westeros or not, but that their society treats it differently than ours. Bran and Rickon's lives are worth a million Miller's boys in their world. When the truth comes out, no one will care that those two boys were killed, apart from those who were directly involved ie. Theon and the boys' parents (Obviously Ramsay would not care). But when it's Bran and Rickon Stark, EVERYONE feels outraged. That's just how their society works.

(And I'm not saying it's ok that the two boys were killed, in case anyone gets the wrong idea. :P)

Well, yeah, Westeros is not fair and the North is no exception. Sure, not disputing that. I'm not certain what it has to do with the issue at hand, that it was a very reprehensible thing Theon did.

@Blackbird: There is no proof he has such a syndrome. Stockholm Syndrome is defined as a mental disease, it's a completely irrational reaction that has no basis on reality. The thing is, we see from Theon's PoV that his sympathies have a bearing in reality: he was treated well by Robb, and signs point that he was treated better in Winterfell than on Pyke (where he was apparently beaten by his brothers very severely). It might not be the reaction everyone would have, but Theon's Stark sympathies seem rational enough to me to put the entire Stockholm thing to rest. If he had been constantly abused and humiliated like Sansa and still loved the Starks, it would have been a serious possibility. But Theon, by and large, was not mistreated enough that only a mental illness can account for his loyalty to Robb.