in defense of theon greyjoy

[Cas Stark]

The show doesn't matter here. These are the book forums. I think you may have mistakenly posted in the wrong part. In the books, Theon regards Robb as something of a younger brother, yes, but nothing of the sort of fondness most people around here are assuming.

Nope, never happened. And it would be bizarre if he did. He was son of a Lord Paramount. Swearing allegiance to someone of his own rank is not an option.

There was no bond to Bran and Rickon, Theon outright thinks so in his POV. They got the same choice Theon did, hostages with the threat of death. Theon never attempted escape, yet they did. Ergo, Theon is just as much in his right to kill them as Ned would have been, had Balon refused to do what he told him.

Ah right. No bond.

That's why he's carrying around Bran's wolf pin. Oh yes, Stockholm syndrome. LMAO

[Lord Reaver]

The identity issue is sown already by Balon and his brothers before he gets warded off and the trauma that his father sent him off without ever looking back.

So now Balon is to blame for Theon's messed up identity ? Right. Holy crap, with the victim blaming.

Look, Balon didn't send him off. He was taken by force. Balon had no more choice in that then in whether or not his people would get raped and his lands pillaged.

[greywind93]

So now Balon is to blame for Theon's messed up identity ? Right. Holy crap, with the victim blaming.

Look, Balon didn't send him off. He was taken by force. Balon had no more choice in that then in whether or not his people would get raped and his lands pillaged.

balon had every choice in those matters. He chose to put his people at risk so he could call himself king and he didn't care so when his failure looks him in the eye he can't stand it. Robert should have given balon to lord bolton to be flayed on old wyk in front of all the ironborn lords or maybe flay all the ironborn lords

[The Marquis de Leech]

OK, so the Iron Islands suffering is all Balon's fault (he's an idiot for wanting independence!), but the North's suffering is certainly not the fault of Robb Stark's War of Choice?

[Trickrs]

So now Balon is to blame for Theon's messed up identity ? Right. Holy crap, with the victim blaming.

Look, Balon didn't send him off. He was taken by force. Balon had no more choice in that then in whether or not his people would get raped and his lands pillaged.

Balon wasn't a victim, he started a war, he lost the said war, that was his punishment for rebelling.

He should be grateful that he was allowed to have his head.

[INCBlackbird]

Balon wasn't a victim, he started a war, he lost the said war, that was his punishment for rebelling.

He should be grateful that he was allowed to have his head.

I don't really agree that it wasn't balon's fault or anything because I do not think the iron islands should have independence, since that means murdering and stealing from innocent people. however in the mindset of the ironborn it is their god given right to do this, in their mindset Balon was freeing them from oppression.

and can I just say this: Ned and Robert rebelled against the throne and won. if they would have lost and robb would have potentially been taken captive (I know robb wasn't born at the time but for the sake of argument let's assume that he was) as a punishment, would you have agreed with that? I see two possiblities :

1. we still see the story from the stark's perspectivee (at the start) and consider robb's situation to be horrible

2. we get to see the story through the targaryan's perspective, who tell us that Ned and robert were traitors to the throne and were punished accordingly and in that case you would be argueing that Ned was punished accordingly.

a lot has to do with who won and who lost, because the winners are generally the ones we get the perspective from, which is the case in the greyjoy rebellion.

and yes, the greyjoys shouldn't have their freedom, and ned and robert had every right to rebel (in balon's mind he had every right to rebel as well)

[The Wolves]

So now Balon is to blame for Theon's messed up identity ? Right. Holy crap, with the victim blaming.

Look, Balon didn't send him off. He was taken by force. Balon had no more choice in that then in whether or not his people would get raped and his lands pillaged.

The Starks sure ain't responsible for Theon's identity issues.

The Starks did nothing to make Theon think he was one of them or could ever be one of them.

[Trickrs]

I did't take moral grounds, it just how stuff works.

1. Balon started a war/rebellion

2. He lost

3. Theon being captive was his punishment.

As I said, the actual punishment from losing the war would Balon being executed by Bobby B.

[sweetsunray]

There's a difference between Ned and Robert rebelling and Balon rebelling. If Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert hadn't rebelled they would have had to send their heads to the Mad King. Robert wasn't demanding Balon's head before he rebelled. He just felt he wanted to be king.

Also, Lord Reaver, it is not Balon's rebellion, the death of his brothers and him being sent as a hostage to WF that planted the seed of the identity issue for Theon. It was his life at Pyke's, his home environment, his family's treatment of him from the start that made him the scapegoat and "weakling" of the family. He was emotionally and physically abused at home. But I guess Balon and Theon's brothers were victims I blame for abusing him, hmmm?

[INCBlackbird]

There's a difference between Ned and Robert rebelling and Balon rebelling. If Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert hadn't rebelled they would have had to send their heads to the Mad King. Robert wasn't demanding Balon's head before he rebelled. He just felt he wanted to be king.

Also, Lord Reaver, it is not Balon's rebellion, the death of his brothers and him being sent as a hostage to WF that planted the seed of the identity issue for Theon. It was his life at Pyke's, his home environment, his family's treatment of him from the start that made him the scapegoat and "weakling" of the family. He was emotionally and physically abused at home. But I guess Balon and Theon's brothers were victims I blame for abusing him, hmmm?

oh yeah I know. I'm not saying it's the same thing, i'm saying that you can't say that Balon should be punished for rebelling and Ned and robert shouldn't have. the difference lies in why they rebelled not the rebellion itself. and like I said, in Balon's mind he had a good reason to rebel, though I as a person from the 21st century obviously don't agree with it because I don't think he's got the right to kill and steal from people, but Balon and hiw brothers grew up in a culture where they were taught that this was the only honorable way to get what they wanted. there's a really interesting essay on it here : http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/93111312450/the-culture-of-the-ironborn-appearances-and-realities

about the second part, I mostly agree but I don't think the effect his time as a hostage had should be underestimated. and I would like to clarify (once again) that I do not blame the starks for this. I blame the system. everytime I tell people that theon suffered from his time with the starks the response is "the starks didn't mistreat him", while i've never said they did. but fact remains, theon was a hostage growing up in a different culture that did not accept or want him. he was a hostage under threat of death and a political tool, which is damaging in itself. I think an interesting aspect is also that he grew up in this violent culture with a family that shunned him and was sent to go live with a family that did not treat their siblings like theon had been treated but tended to accept them. which must have been confusing for little theon but it's no wonder that he wanted to belong with this family so badly! I think his identity crisis came from his own family teaching him that HE was the problem and therefor HE had to change in order to be accapted. then he gets sent away as a hostage and he wants to belong very badly with this new family but he is not accepted because he is a greyjoy to which theon responds with trying to change his personality, trying to be what he thinks he's supposed to be in order to get said acceptance (but he can't do that because the reason he's not accepted is not because of his personality but because of his name, which he can't change)

[The Marquis de Leech]

And to repeat for the umpteenth time: whether or not Theon was mistreated by the Starks is an entirely different question from whether the mistreatment/favourable treatment should influence Theon's loyalties. No-one suggests that Sansa should back the Lannisters because Tyrion doesn't rape her.

Theon's great moral sin was the murder of the children. His choice of loyalties was inevitable, but hardly immoral.

[sweetsunray]

oh yeah I know. I'm not saying it's the same thing, i'm saying that you can't say that Balon should be punished for rebelling and Ned and robert shouldn't have. the difference lies in why they rebelled not the rebellion itself. and like I said, in Balon's mind he had a good reason to rebel, though I as a person from the 21st century obviously don't agree with it because I don't think he's got the right to kill and steal from people, but Balon and hiw brothers grew up in a culture where they were taught that this was the only honorable way to get what they wanted. there's a really interesting essay on it here : http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/93111312450/the-culture-of-the-ironborn-appearances-and-realities

about the second part, I mostly agree but I don't think the effect his time as a hostage had should be underestimated. and I would like to clarify (once again) that I do not blame the starks for this. I blame the system. everytime I tell people that theon suffered from his time with the starks the response is "the starks didn't mistreat him", while i've never said they did. but fact remains, theon was a hostage growing up in a different culture that did not accept or want him. he was a hostage under threat of death and a political tool, which is damaging in itself. I think an interesting aspect is also that he grew up in this violent culture with a family that shunned him and was sent to go live with a family that did not treat their siblings like theon had been treated but tended to accept them. which must have been confusing for little theon but it's no wonder that he wanted to belong with this family so badly! I think his identity crisis came from his own family teaching him that HE was the problem and therefor HE had to change in order to be accapted. then he gets sent away as a hostage and he wants to belong very badly with this new family but he is not accepted because he is a greyjoy to which theon responds with trying to change his personality, trying to be what he thinks he's supposed to be in order to get said acceptance (but he can't do that because the reason he's not accepted is not because of his personality but because of his name, which he can't change)

The Daltons too thought they had the right to rob and kill as they did. Psychopaths and narcissists all believe they are entitled to do whatever harm they do. But believing it doesn't make it so. The punishment for the rebellion for Robert and Ned is a moot argument: had they lost, they would have lost their heads; if they hadn't rebelled, they would have lost their heads. The Mad King wasn't someone busying himself with taking hostages from traitors, he just killed them and their family along. He only took hostages as a pre-emptive tool, not a punishment tool.

I consider the hostage-taking of Theon similar to that of a boy growing up with an abusive father, who ends up robbing a bank with his older sons. The older sons get shot in a firefight. The father ends up in prison and his parental rights taken away. His remaining child gets to be fostered, but ends up emotionally damaged because of the early years, which no amount of fostering can actually heal. It is absurd to call the father a victim in this. And while years later, I can pity the fostered boy for his childhood, I would still condemn him if he'd burglarize his foster home as an adult while his foster family is on holiday, and he excused himself not to come along because he wanted to visit his natural father in prison.

Sure, there are moral questions that can be put forward about the ward-fostering and hostake taking, but it wasn't an option to let Theon remain with Balon. They even did him a kindness to foster him, than letting him stay with Balon. The alternative was bannishment, selling them as slaves, or executing them all even after surrender.

I'd argue that most of Westeros life is not all that beneficial for anyone's physical, emotional and mental health.

[INCBlackbird]

The Daltons too thought they had the right to rob and kill as they did. Psychopaths and narcissists all believe they are entitled to do whatever harm they do. But believing it doesn't make it so. The punishment for the rebellion for Robert and Ned is a moot argument: had they lost, they would have lost their heads; if they hadn't rebelled, they would have lost their heads. The Mad King wasn't someone busying himself with taking hostages from traitors, he just killed them and their family along. He only took hostages as a pre-emptive tool, not a punishment tool.

I consider the hostage-taking of Theon similar to that of a boy growing up with an abusive father, who ends up robbing a bank with his older sons. The older sons get shot in a firefight. The father ends up in prison and his parental rights taken away. His remaining child gets to be fostered, but ends up emotionally damaged because of the early years, which no amount of fostering can actually heal. It is absurd to call the father a victim in this. And while years later, I can pity the fostered boy for his childhood, I would still condemn him if he'd burglarize his foster home as an adult while his foster family is on holiday, and he excused himself not to come along because he wanted to visit his natural father in prison.

Sure, there are moral questions that can be put forward about the ward-fostering and hostake taking, but it wasn't an option to let Theon remain with Balon. They even did him a kindness to foster him, than letting him stay with Balon. The alternative was bannishment, selling them as slaves, or executing them all even after surrender.

I'd argue that most of Westeros life is not all that beneficial for anyone's physical, emotional and mental health.

yeah of course there's a difference, which is what I pointed out in my post. I'd compare Balon to a religious fanatic that believes he is entitled to do what his god tells him. and he should be stopped from doing so, i'm not argueing about that. I'm argueing that we know the story through the eyes of the starks, which is a biased pov, just like daenerys not knowing what her father really did and thinking he's probably a hero is a biased view. we get different biased views from all sides and non of them are 100% reliable.

but that analogy doesn't work for theon because in your analogy the foster child goes to a different home with the intension of his foster parents to help him by showing affection and love. theon was a political hostage that was treated no better and no worse then political hostages are supposed to be treated. the starks did not take him in out of the kindness of their hearts he was nothing more then a political tool to them, he was not valued as a person by anyone but Robb. he was also under constant threat of death which would defenitly not be the case in your foster analogy.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I consider the hostage-taking of Theon similar to that of a boy growing up with an abusive father, who ends up robbing a bank with his older sons. The older sons get shot in a firefight. The father ends up in prison and his parental rights taken away. His remaining child gets to be fostered, but ends up emotionally damaged because of the early years, which no amount of fostering can actually heal. It is absurd to call the father a victim in this. And while years later, I can pity the fostered boy for his childhood, I would still condemn him if he'd burglarize his foster home as an adult while his foster family is on holiday, and he excused himself not to come along because he wanted to visit his natural father in prison.

If Bill Gates kidnaps a ten year old, and raises that child like a son of Microsoft, and allows him food, clothes, and entertainment, but makes him aware that he could be killed at any moment, and that he is forbidden from seeing his parents again: if ten years later, the child goes back to his original family, and works as a computer programmer for a rival firm, and bankrupts Gates, I, for one, wouldn't be claiming that the child betrayed Gates.

"Foster family" makes it sound like Theon was some orphan being dealt with by a benevolent system of social services. He wasn't. Theon was a political prisoner against his father's good behaviour, which is a very different thing.

[Lord Reaver]

I'd compare Balon to a religious fanatic that believes he is entitled to do what his god tells him. and he should be stopped from doing so, i'm not argueing about that.

Personally I compare him to the founding fathers, fighting against an oppressive tyranny that is driving his people to the brink of extinction.

Aeron is the religious fanatic of the family.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Yeah, that's because Balon is an asshole. Robert and Ned haven't seen each other in 9 years, but they didn't forget their friendship, like Balon "forgot" about his only remaining son.

I think what really matters is that most of Theon's problems stem from the dichotomy of values/allegiances that he is stuck with as a result of being the ward/hostage of the Starks and yet the heir to the Iron Islands. It has much less to do with Balon or Eddard than it does Theon and his shaky self image and split loyalties.

The situation he is in terrible and destructive, there is no need to exaggerate that the Starks mistreated or abused him or that he's got Stockholm Syndrome, the facts as they exist without any embellishment are themselves a recipe for disaster.

Perfect!

To the second bold, yes. Also like most sons, Theon likely wanted to impress his father and make him proud. That placed him is a very rough spot, and he ultimately decided to side with his father. He lost his head in the process....and he may lose another before the end.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Personally I compare him to the founding fathers,

What, a wealthy slave owner who wanted autonomy from those annoying types out east? ;)

[sweetsunray]

If Bill Gates kidnaps a ten year old, and raises that child like a son of Microsoft, and allows him food, clothes, and entertainment, but makes him aware that he could be killed at any moment, and that he is forbidden from seeing his parents again: if ten years later, the child goes back to his original family, and works as a computer programmer for a rival firm, and bankrupts Gates, I, for one, wouldn't be claiming that the child betrayed Gates.

"Foster family" makes it sound like Theon was some orphan being dealt with by a benevolent system of social services. He wasn't. Theon was a political prisoner against his father's good behaviour, which is a very different thing.

That is the exaggeration. And I acced that it is possible that Theon may have made the same exaggeration. But

1) It would never be to Ed's advantage to kill Theon, because a living heir with cultural, friendship, political and even marriage ties is just much more valuable

2) So, Ed raises him for 1) ... which is the exact same reason that non hostage wards grow up in somebody else's house (like the Freys boys with Bran and Rickon)

Theon is taken in by the Starks for the exact same purpose as any ward is taken: bonding, ties. The only difference here is that usually the ward taken is a child of an ally, not of an enemy. But ultimately it is indeed a social service done by highborn amongst the highborn, and its purpose is to secure ties and peace and allies. Balon can get fcked for the Starks, but they have the next generation growing up with them. What is the first thing that Balon criticises Theon for? That he has become exactly what is to be expected of a ward living 9 years with another family.

The death threat is of Theon and Balon's fantasy making, not by the Starks, because it is just pretty pointless to execute him. When you consider how pointless it is, you realize that Theon fearing his head to get chopped off was completely irrational and probably whispered by his father to him before being given up (which would not be atypical for abusive, entitlement feeling jerks: smear campaign the others) and Theon having an impressionable mind for irrational horror stories (which would seem to fit his timid and sweet nature before he was sent off)

[INCBlackbird]

That is the exaggeration. And I acced that it is possible that Theon may have made the same exaggeration. But

1) It would never be to Ed's advantage to kill Theon, because a living heir with cultural, friendship, political and even marriage ties is just much more valuable

2) So, Ed raises him for 1) ... which is the exact same reason that non hostage wards grow up in somebody else's house (like the Freys boys with Bran and Rickon)

Theon is taken in by the Starks for the exact same purpose as any ward is taken: bonding, ties. The only difference here is that usually the ward taken is a child of an ally, not of an enemy. But ultimately it is indeed a social service done by highborn amongst the highborn, and its purpose is to secure ties and peace and allies. Balon can get fcked for the Starks, but they have the next generation growing up with them. What is the first thing that Balon criticises Theon for? That he has become exactly what is to be expected of a ward living 9 years with another family.

The death threat is of Theon and Balon's fantasy making, not by the Starks, because it is just pretty pointless to execute him. When you consider how pointless it is, you realize that Theon fearing his head to get chopped off was completely irrational and probably whispered by his father to him before being given up (which would not be atypical for abusive, entitlement feeling jerks: smear campaign the others) and Theon having an impressionable mind for irrational horror stories (which would seem to fit his timid and sweet nature before he was sent off)

I keep hearing this theory. "ned took him in to raise him and put a starkified greyjoy on the throne..." but it is wrong, it's something the fandom seems to have come up with in order to be able to defend the starks more easily. because apparently the truth of the situation would mean their precious starks aren't as perfect as they think they are... which I btw don't agree with. I don't think the starks should be blamed for the situation theon is in, but stark fans seem to think so and not be able to deal with it? I'm not saying this is why you're saying it, you probably read it somewhere ?

nothing in the text supports this, it's pretty clear that Theon knows he may be killed if we desect the first chapter in agot (the quote I gave earlier from theon smiling at the execusion).

Theon was not a ward, he was a ward in name but a hostage in truth. his purpose was to prevent Balon from rebelling again, hoping he cared about his heir and wouldn't risk his life. (as is usually the purpose of a hostage)

if Balon rebelled Ned would have executed Theon (he kept his distance as to not get attached to a child he might have to kill one day.) not because it would prevent the rebellion, because by that time it would already be happening and it would be clear that Balon didn't care enough about theon for that to stop him from rebelling, so Theon was at that point useless. he would kill him so everyone knew he didn't make empty threats. imagine that Balon rebels, and Ned doesn't kill Theon, then someone else rebels and a hostage is taken from them they won't care cause they'll know Ned wouldn't kill their hostage anyway, in otherwords, the power of hostage taking would be entirely lost and everyone would be able to walk all over him because he makes threats he won't keep anyway.

now if you still think the starks took theon to make him a priviliged ward. ask GRRM : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v51PBrQwd68

[Lord Reaver]

What, a wealthy slave owner who wanted autonomy from those annoying types out east? ;)

Sounds about right. With the possible exception of the slave owner and wealthy bit. While he has some thralls, it's nothing compared to the stocks owned by the founding fathers.