in defense of theon greyjoy

[Cas Stark]

Yes, he was. Apart from the obvious beatings, there is the ever-present threat of death at any moment, should Ned decide so.

No, he wasn't. Come on now, he was afforded less honor and respect than the bastard, Jon.

Speculation. The first of those is done while he is still a captive. If you held my life in your hands, you bet I'd say how much I loved you, too. It proves absolutely nothing. And it is pointless to speculate, since we have Theon's thoughts on the matter when he is free. We are outright told that Ned was NOT a father-figure to Theon.

He wishes he'd died after having been tortured by Ramsay, all that means is he thinks being dead would be better than being tortured and disfigured beyond recognition.

Beatings is plural now is it?

I only recall one time he gets what amounts to a spanking, LOL, but there is no evidence that Theon was punished more harshly than any of the other Stark children that I recall.

I don't remember where it comes from that he is treated with LESS respect than Jon Snow. Theon afterall is up at the main table with the Starks and Baratheons while Jon Snow is kept out of sight because he's a bastard.

OMG, "death at any moment" now it is also? LOL. There would be no death without any rebellion from his father and that would never occur without weeks or months of threats and negotiations. Hyperbole.

[Wmarshal]

Do you, because Theon never thought his life was in danger.

The deed was never done, this was all a lie.

[Cas Stark]

no he didn't think it true, ramsay however, did...

replied to this in a previous post, theon is not a forture teller, he hoped he could hold winterfell, he couldn't know that wasn't gonna work.

aha here we have it "he seals his own demise when he listens to ramsay" so you admit that ramsay manipulated him but blame theon for it... victim blaming 101

Theon at the time was in control, so it cannot be "victim blaming" because at the time he was running Winterfell. It is his OWN BAD JUDGEMENT that he listened to Ramsay at all and not Maester Luwin.

Theon let his pride do the dictating...not his brain...he is certainly intelligent enough to perceive if he calmed down that killing the "Starks" was nuts and would seal his fate. But, the blame for this decision lies with Theon. All Ramsay does is play to his pride and insecurity.

[A Bastard Snow]

But Theon wants to die. He's said it many times, so it doesn't make sense to think he only saved Jeyne so he wouldn't be killed. "Death did not frighten Theon Greyjoy" and all that.

And the spearwives didn't force him to jump, they had nothing to do with that.

He does not want to be caught because he knows what Ramsey will do to him.Once he sees the Umber men he knows they will more then likely kill him on the spot so he says he saved Arya and Jayne backs him up.If he really wanted to die all he had to do was say nothing and the Umber's would have killed him.So clearly he does not want to die that much.I mean hell if he really wanted to die he could have cut his wrists at any time with a knife.

[INCBlackbird]

Theon at the time was in control, so it cannot be "victim blaming" because at the time he was running Winterfell. It is his OWN BAD JUDGEMENT that he listened to Ramsay at all and not Maester Luwin.

Theon let his pride do the dictating...not his brain...he is certainly intelligent enough to perceive if he calmed down that killing the "Starks" was nuts and would seal his fate. But, the blame for this decision lies with Theon. All Ramsay does is play to his pride and insecurity.

"all ramsay does is play to his pride and insecurity" that is litarly what manipulation is! which also means theon wasn't in control because ramsay was using this insecurety to TAKE control. it's not because theon was the leader that he was in control of the situation, he wasn't even in control of himself.

[Cas Stark]

"all ramsay does is play to his pride and insecurity" that is litarly what manipulation is! which also means theon wasn't in control because ramsay was using this insecurety to TAKE control. it's not because theon was the leader that he was in control of the situation, he wasn't even in control of himself.

That is all true, but you can't call it "victim blaming 101". Theon is manipulated, but, whose fault is that? Theon Greyjoy's. He should have seen the light as soon as he got the Iron Islands and saw the fleet assembled because that was the huge, neon red flag that his father didn't care if he lived or died and was planning to invade the North while Theon was still a 'hostage" and his life was 'in danger every minute'....but, instead of seeing what was a plain as day...he maintains his insane fantasy of basking in his father's love and approval...which clearly was never going to come since his father had already given him up for dead before he set foot on Pyke.

[Lord Reaver]

Beatings is plural now is it?

I only recall one time he gets what amounts to a spanking, LOL, but there is no evidence that Theon was punished more harshly than any of the other Stark children that I recall.

"That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke."

(Reek II, ADWD). Note it said the worst, indicating there were several with which to compare. I.e. the thrashings were indeed plural.

I don't remember where it comes from that he is treated with LESS respect than Jon Snow. Theon afterall is up at the main table with the Starks and Baratheons while Jon Snow is kept out of sight because he's a bastard.

"Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scul ion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had."

(Theon I, ACOK).

Since you seem to be having trouble recalling, I thought it best to simply quote the relevant parts. You're welcome.

[INCBlackbird]

That is all true, but you can't call it "victim blaming 101". Theon is manipulated, but, whose fault is that? Theon Greyjoy's. He should have seen the light as soon as he got the Iron Islands and saw the fleet assembled because that was the huge, neon red flag that his father didn't care if he lived or died and was planning to invade the North while Theon was still a 'hostage" and his life was 'in danger every minute'....but, instead of seeing what was a plain as day...he maintains his insane fantasy of basking in his father's love and approval...which clearly was never going to come since his father had already given him up for dead before he set foot on Pyke.

he was delusional yes, like he is delusional about a lot of things all the time. that happens when you spent your life a prisoner under the threat of death and teach yourself to cope by constantly lying to yourself and romanticizing everything. he's used to doing that now, but that method doesn't work when you're supposed to be the one in control, especially not when you're also deeply insecure, it makes you a perfect target for manipulation. and you can say "theon should have" all you want but theon didn't because he is a human being, with human flaws and he is a product of his enviroment. you can't expect every single person to be a confident leader. I'm not saying theon is completely absolved of his crimes (I said as much in my origianal post) but to blame theon for the fact that ramsay manipulated him is victim blaming. he was the victim of ramsay's manipulation and you're still blaming him for it, ramsay is the one who did he manipulation you should be blaming him for being the bad person who desided to make use of someone's vulnearablity.

[Cas Stark]

"That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke."

(Reek II, ADWD). Note it said the worst, indicating there were several with which to compare. I.e. the thrashings were indeed plural.

"Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scul ion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had."

(Theon I, ACOK).

Since you seem to be having trouble recalling, I thought it best to simply quote the relevant parts. You're welcome.

So the WORST thrashing he ever got at Winterfell was gentle compared to what his brothers had done to him? LMAO. Okay then. Thanks much.

[Lord Reaver]

So the WORST thrashing he ever got at Winterfell was gentle compared to what his brothers had done to him? LMAO. Okay then. Thanks much.

Yes indeed. Ned was just one in a long list of people who'd been mistreating Theon.

That doesn't absolve him of his crimes, however.

[TepidHands]

My issues with Theon have more to do with his treatment of women (the Miller's wife, the captain's daughter, even his own damned sister, before he knew who she was). He was an arrogant swingin' dick, which makes his eventual disposition really ironic.

[Cas Stark]

he was delusional yes, like he is delusional about a lot of things all the time. that happens when you spent your life a prisoner under the threat of death and teach yourself to cope by constantly lying to yourself and romanticizing everything. he's used to doing that now, but that method doesn't work when you're supposed to be the one in control, especially not when you're also deeply insecure, it makes you a perfect target for manipulation. and you can say "theon should have" all you want but theon didn't because he is a human being, with human flaws and he is a product of his enviroment. you can't expect every single person to be a confident leader. I'm not saying theon is completely absolved of his crimes (I said as much in my origianal post) but to blame theon for the fact that ramsay manipulated him is victim blaming. he was the victim of ramsay's manipulation and you're still blaming him for it, ramsay is the one who did he manipulation you should be blaming him for being the bad person who desided to make use of someone's vulnearablity.

He's an adult, not a child. When we are manipulated, especially based not on lies or falsehoods, but purely based on someone playing to our own vanity and ego....then we're not victims in any kind of meaningful sense of the word.

Theon was better off at Winterfell, he says himself the worst "thrashing" he ever got was tender compared to how his own brothers beat him.

So this idea that he grew up with a constant fear of death is BS, excuse making. This is simply not true, and nothing in Theon's POVs supports the idea that he had any kind of fear of death on an ongoing basis.

He's insecure. Part of that insecurity stems from being an "outsider" and from being internally conflicted that everything he sees about the Starks is good, which is why he wants to be like Eddard in his dealings with Winterfell, LOL...but he knows that this is a "wrong" thought, because he's Iron Born, so he is constantly conflicted with the vision of the IB that he has and with feeling he shouldn't identify with the Starks or want to be like them or love them...even though of course he does, as Lady Dustin quite correctly points out.

Theon isn't even partially absolved of his crimes. He knows from almost Day One before he gets to Winterfell that what he is doing is wrong, well before he meets Ramsay. He does it all anyway, because he's weak and insecure.

That makes his story one of the great tragedies of the series, it doesn't make him a victim until he becomes an actual victim after he's taken prisoner.

[A Bastard Snow]

"That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke."

(Reek II, ADWD). Note it said the worst, indicating there were several with which to compare. I.e. the thrashings were indeed plural.

"Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scul ion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had."

(Theon I, ACOK).

Since you seem to be having trouble recalling, I thought it best to simply quote the relevant parts. You're welcome.

So Jon had more honor yet Theon got to sit at the High Table whenever there was a Feast while Jon was put in a corner.

Gee having a place of HONOR at the HighTable is somehow less honorable then getting put into the Bastard corner....

[Lord Reaver]

My issues with Theon have more to do with his treatment of women (the Miller's wife, the captain's daughter, even his own damned sister, before he knew who she was). He was an arrogant swingin' dick, which makes his eventual disposition really ironic.

If those are your issues with Theon, I'd say you'd have more issues with Tyrion. But everyone seems to forgive him for raping whores and strangling them to death, for some reason.

[Wmarshal]

I don't, I think he is a raping whoremonger. Tyrion is a horrid wretch.

[Lord Reaver]

So Jon had more honor yet Theon got to sit at the High Table whenever there was a Feast while Jon was put in a corner.

Nope, not "whenever there was a Feast". That one time. One. Time. Theon's reflections are about the general-every-day situation at Winterfell. You know, when the King wasn't visiting.

Gee having a place of HONOR at the HighTable is somehow less honorable then getting put into the Bastard corner....

Again, Jon had to sit it out once. Cry me a river. Compared to being treated coldly and with suspicion, with the abject threat of being killed constantly at hand, it's fairly insignificant.

[TrueOrFalse]

So Jon had more honor yet Theon got to sit at the High Table whenever there was a Feast while Jon was put in a corner.

Gee having a place of HONOR at the HighTable is somehow less honorable then getting put into the Bastard corner....

Haha, I'd rather get put in the "Bastard corner" and have the security of knowing I have a father and siblings who love me dearly than sit at the High table with people who only tolerate me to keep up appearances.

[l2 0 5 5]

I'm a huge Theon fan and don't hold any grudge against him. Robb put him in a shitty position, and was forced to make a tough call. Your father and family that has a proud history, or the family that practically raised you and made you into a man? Certainly not a tough call. It's hard for me to say what I would do there.

As mentioned above, the worst he did was kill the two boys, but I can look past that considering how many nefarious deeds happen in the course of this book. Theon, much like Jaime, feels regret for his past actions, and wants to make up for them. I can empathize with a character who goes through that. If he didn't feel regret, it'd be a different story. Thankful for us, we're privy to his inner monologue and know that he is a damaged and changed man who does regret a lot of his past deeds.

And as the OP put, Theon has done things before/after his betrayal that shouldn't be forgotten. He did save Bran, and actively fought beside Robb in the WW. He went on Robb's behalf to get his father's ships, and was put into a very hard decision, and I can't fault him for that.

[The Wolves]

Theon was treated fine in Winterfell and him saying he was treated better than Jon doesn't hold water.

Jon was treated like a son to The Lord of Winterfell, Theon cannot complain because he doesn't deserve that honor because he isn't Ned Stark's son but Jon is. Like I said Theon thought in his arrogance that he deserved to be treated like a son of Winterfell when he isn't.

[Cas Stark]

Nope, not "whenever there was a Feast". That one time. One. Time. Theon's reflections are about the general-every-day situation at Winterfell. You know, when the King wasn't visiting.

Again, Jon had to sit it out once. Cry me a river. Compared to being treated coldly and with suspicion, with the abject threat of being killed constantly at hand, it's fairly insignificant.

There is no threat of being killed constantly at hand. This is silly. There is no threat AT ALL unless his father rebels.

Theon was an outsider who was treated with respect, but not like one of the Stark family.

Cry me a river.