in defense of theon greyjoy

[INCBlackbird]

Stockholm Syndrome is a real phenomenon where for the sake of their own safety and life a hostage bonds and empathizes with the hostage taker. In a long term abusive relationship it's called trauma-bonding. It are the dynamics that makes for an abused victim to defend their partner/parent/child for abusing them.

Not every hostage situation creates stockholm syndrome. There are several things the hostage taker or abuser must do: threaten, abuse and punish the victim even when they're doing nothing wrong, and sometimes out of the blue refrain from punishing the victim even when they did somethign they expect to incurr the wrath of the abuser. The refraining of the expected punishment will be regarded as kindness then. And sometimes the abuser or hostage taker rewards the victim. In order to survive, the victim then will try to predict the abuser's behaviour and anticipate ways to please him or her. The main point is that there must be a threat to safety (physical or mental), that there is abusive punishment witnessed or experienced (and often) and that sometimes there is a reward or no punishment, and that the reward-punishment patterns are unpredictable and erratic.

Personally I see little evidence for Theon bonding in such a way to the Starks. He does not have to walk on eggshells. He definitely shows Stockholm Syndrome as Reek though, because Ramsay knows exactly how to make someone bond through abuse.

BTW it's not a mental disease, but a survival tactic.

where does it say it is required for the captor to condition the victim to get stockholm syndrome ? I have never read that anywhere (and I've read a lot on stockholm syndrome) this is a good description of what i've always read stockholm syndrome is :

When men and women are placed in a situation where they no longer have any control over their fate, feel intense fear of physical harm and believe all control is in the hands of their tormentor, a stragedy for survival can result which can develop into a psychological response that can include sympathy and support for their captor's plight.

What Causes Stockholm Syndrome?

Individuals can apparently succumb to Stocholm Syndrome under the following circumstances:

• Believing one's captor can and will kill them.

Isolation from anyone but the captors.

Belief that escape is impossible.

Inflating the captor's acts of kindness into genuine care for each other's welfare.

Victims of Stockholm Syndrome generally suffer from severe isolation and emotional and physical abuse demonstrated in characteristics of battered spouses, incest victims, abused children, prisoners of war, cult victims and kidnapped or hostage victims. Each of these circumstances can result in victims responding in a compliant and supportive way as a tactic for survival.

which all applies to theon. and yes he has stockholm syndrome when he's with ramsay as well,

yep, it's a survival tactic, which is basically what I said, others were calling it a mental desease and saying that if he had it he is "deranged"

[INCBlackbird]

@Blackbird: There is no proof he has such a syndrome. Stockholm Syndrome is defined as a mental disease, it's a completely irrational reaction that has no basis on reality. The thing is, we see from Theon's PoV that his sympathies have a bearing in reality: he was treated well by Robb, and signs point that he was treated better in Winterfell than on Pyke (where he was apparently beaten by his brothers very severely). It might not be the reaction everyone would have, but Theon's Stark sympathies seem rational enough to me to put the entire Stockholm thing to rest. If he had been constantly abused and humiliated like Sansa and still loved the Starks, it would have been a serious possibility. But Theon, by and large, was not mistreated enough that only a mental illness can account for his loyalty to Robb.

stockholm syndrome is not a mental illness, about how it applies to theon, see post above.

[Cas Stark]

stockholm syndrome is not a mental illness, about how it applies to theon, see post above.

It's something that people are treated for so they can recover from it, and is typified by irrational behavior and attachment to one's abuser/tormenter/captor.

So, it may not be exactly a mental illness but it signifies an unhealthy, unnatural mental condition that requires treatment and recovery.

[INCBlackbird]

It's something that people are treated for so they can recover from it, and is typified by irrational behavior and attachment to one's abuser/tormenter/captor.

So, it may not be exactly a mental illness but it signifies an unhealthy, unnatural mental condition that requires treatment and recovery.

it is irrational behavior yes, and it requires treatment of course, therapy I would assume. it is however not an illness, it's a coping mechanism. it's the brain trying to protect itself from panicking and losing control.

[Cas Stark]

where does it say it is required for the captor to condition the victim to get stockholm syndrome ? I have never read that anywhere (and I've read a lot on stockholm syndrome) this is a good description of what i've always read stockholm syndrome is :

When men and women are placed in a situation where they no longer have any control over their fate, feel intense fear of physical harm and believe all control is in the hands of their tormentor, a stragedy for survival can result which can develop into a psychological response that can include sympathy and support for their captor's plight.

What Causes Stockholm Syndrome?

Individuals can apparently succumb to Stocholm Syndrome under the following circumstances:

• Believing one's captor can and will kill them.
• Isolation from anyone but the captors.
• Belief that escape is impossible.
• Inflating the captor's acts of kindness into genuine care for each other's welfare.

Victims of Stockholm Syndrome generally suffer from severe isolation and emotional and physical abuse demonstrated in characteristics of battered spouses, incest victims, abused children, prisoners of war, cult victims and kidnapped or hostage victims. Each of these circumstances can result in victims responding in a compliant and supportive way as a tactic for survival.

which all applies to theon. and yes he has stockholm syndrome when he's with ramsay as well,

yep, it's a survival tactic, which is basically what I said, others were calling it a mental desease and saying that if he had it he is "deranged"

How does this "all" apply to Theon?

Where is the evidence that he fees INTENSE fear of physical harm?

Where is the evidence he ever saw the Starks as his tormenters?

Where do we see he thinks escape is impossible? He never tries to escape at all.

Where does he feel sympathy for his "captor's plight"?

Where does he believe the Starks "will" kill him?

Where does he inflate the captors kindness, and where is the evidence that the Starks kindness is NOT genuine?

Above all, where does he suffer severe isolation and abuse?

Where is he isolated from everyone but the captors?

**The only weak link here is that there is an abstract, undefined possibility, that if his father rebels he might at some further future point be killed.

Nothing else on the list remotely fits his situation. He grew up getting martial training from Rodrik, hanging out with Robb, seducing various women, getting educated along with the Starks, eating with them. It doesn't sound remotely like any captive situation/hostage situation/abusive situatoin that I've ever come across.

[sweetsunray]

Because only a minority of hostages actually develop stockholm syndrome. It's not the general rule. Most information that explains stockholm syndrome generally point out that not every hostage situation develops stockholm syndrome, because there is no reward(aka lack of punishment)-punishment dynamic. It only develops under certain conditions.

I have read lots on the topic too, because I was involved once with someone for two years who can be considered a psychopath. He never laid a personal wrong hand on me (except that he sent some friends of his to rob me and then play the hero), but he terrorrized my sleep, tried to abuse me emotionally and certainly did financially, and just made life totally chaotic and full of drama. I learned as much as I could once I realized what was behind the mask, including the bonding dynamics so that I could deconstruct those bonds as quickly as possible and could understand why I could ever have developed such a strong attachment and in that way forgive myself putting up with him for those 2 years. BTW the treatment for that was just having no contact anymore. It's a healthy rational survival tactic in short-term situations, it becomes irrational in long-term situations because it distorts the options and even the will to escape the captor/abuser/tormentor. It isn't unhealthy by itself, because feeling empathy by itself is not unhealthy, but it does prevent the victim from escaping the situation and thereby adds to continued exposure of abuse. Aside from bonding, abuse also has destructive impact on the self-image as well as stress-related syndromes (PTSD) which do need to be treated.

The only argument that can be made regarding the Starks that might have been cause to anything remotely like stockholm syndrome in Theone was probably the voyage and initial capture of Theone. His brothers were all dead and he was probably filled with terror stories of what kind of monsters the Starks were, only to arrive at a place where he's treated with more kindness than he had ever known before. That most likely created an initial bond. But then it weren't the Starks who accomplished that with threatening him, but his father. But when you're treated as part of the highborn household, that is well and without threats or even anything remotely close to abuse, then the bonding that forms from that is just normal healthy bonding, not trauma bonding.

[Jasta11]

where does it say it is required for the captor to condition the victim to get stockholm syndrome ? I have never read that anywhere (and I've read a lot on stockholm syndrome) this is a good description of what i've always read stockholm syndrome is :

When men and women are placed in a situation where they no longer have any control over their fate, feel intense fear of physical harm and believe all control is in the hands of their tormentor, a stragedy for survival can result which can develop into a psychological response that can include sympathy and support for their captor's plight.

What Causes Stockholm Syndrome?

Individuals can apparently succumb to Stocholm Syndrome under the following circumstances:

• Believing one's captor can and will kill them.

Isolation from anyone but the captors.

Belief that escape is impossible.

Inflating the captor's acts of kindness into genuine care for each other's welfare.

Victims of Stockholm Syndrome generally suffer from severe isolation and emotional and physical abuse demonstrated in characteristics of battered spouses, incest victims, abused children, prisoners of war, cult victims and kidnapped or hostage victims. Each of these circumstances can result in victims responding in a compliant and supportive way as a tactic for survival.

which all applies to theon. and yes he has stockholm syndrome when he's with ramsay as well,

yep, it's a survival tactic, which is basically what I said, others were calling it a mental desease and saying that if he had it he is "deranged"

It doesn't fit the situation. Theon was given the run of castle, was allowed to do basically anything the Stark children did with select exceptions, was never isolated (and indeed was allowed to befriend the Stark heir), was never abused (punishment is not abuse unless it's really over the top, which it seemingly wasn't). The Starks never psychologically manipulated him, never threatened him with violence constantly; there was a threat, but no one reminds him of it that I remember. He doesn't have unconditional sympathy for the Stark cause (since he, you know, didn't side with them ultimately).

As others have said, the Reek-Ramsay situation is very solid Stockholm Syndrome. There is isolation, psychological manipulation, seeing the withholding of punishment as a kindness, irrational affection for someone who was only a constant abuser, very intense fear of physical harm, actual and unprovoked physical harm, everything fits there. Theon having some sympathy for people who overall treated him better than his own family, and loyalty for his one real friend, is not it.

[INCBlackbird]

How does this "all" apply to Theon?

1. Where is the evidence that he fees INTENSE fear of physical harm?

2. Where is the evidence he ever saw the Starks as his tormenters?

3. Where do we see he thinks escape is impossible? He never tries to escape at all.

3. Where does he feel sympathy for his "captor's plight"?

4. Where does he believe the Starks "will" kill him?

5. Where does he inflate the captors kindness, and where is the evidence that the Starks kindness is NOT genuine?

6. Above all, where does he suffer severe isolation and abuse?

7. Where is he isolated from everyone but the captors?

**The only weak link here is that there is an abstract, undefined possibility, that if his father rebels he might at some further future point be killed.

Nothing else on the list remotely fits his situation.

1. I explained this before, he was a child that was shipped off to go live with the people whom, in his mind, were responsible for the burning down of his home -> badguys "to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. "

2. you are twisting the words of the text here. it doesn't say theon is required to see them as tormentors, in fact, it's all about being sympathetic to their captors. tormentors is just the choice of word from who ever wrote the text.

3. he never runs because escape is impossible, does it require him thinking about this, after robb let him go for you to realise that. he was in the heart of the north, surrounded by enemies.

4. quotes I provided you before

5. weither the stark's kindness is genuine or not is irrelevant, it probably was genuine, doesn't mean they aren't still his captors who are holding him under threat of death.

6. in winterfell... you know, surrounded by only northmen.

7. winterfell

doesn't seem so abstract and undefined to me, it's pretty clear, and it could happen any time...

[Cas Stark]

It doesn't fit the situation. Theon was given the run of castle, was allowed to do basically anything the Stark children did with select exceptions, was never isolated (and indeed was allowed to befriend the Stark heir), was never abused (punishment is not abuse unless it's really over the top, which it seemingly wasn't). The Starks never psychologically manipulated him, never threatened him with violence constantly; there was a threat, but no one reminds him of it that I remember. He doesn't have unconditional sympathy for the Stark cause (since he, you know, didn't side with them ultimately).

As others have said, the Reek-Ramsay situation is very solid Stockholm Syndrome. There is isolation, psychological manipulation, seeing the withholding of punishment as a kindness, irrational affection for someone who was only a constant abuser, very intense fear of physical harm, actual and unprovoked physical harm, everything fits there. Theon having some sympathy for people who overall treated him better than his own family, and loyalty for his one real friend, is not it.

Exactly!

It doesn't negate the fact that the situation itself was still inherently emotionally destructive for Theon, because while he was treated well there was always a coolness and subtext, it wasn't the unabashed lovefest that it had been with Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn.

He is still a young boy taken from his home after a devastating war and sent to live with strangers, who, while they treat him well, do not embrace him as "family" except for Robb, due to their closeness in age. He is still growing up in an environment with very different values and social norms than what he experienced from his own family and culture of Iron Born. So, the emotional conflict is going to be there simply based on the situation as it is, it doesn't need any exaggerations or inappropriate pop psychology labels.

[INCBlackbird]

Because only a minority of hostages actually develop stockholm syndrome. It's not the general rule. Most information that explains stockholm syndrome generally point out that not every hostage situation develops stockholm syndrome, because there is no reward(aka lack of punishment)-punishment dynamic. It only develops under certain conditions.

I have read lots on the topic too, because I was involved once with someone for two years who can be considered a psychopath. He never laid a personal wrong hand on me (except that he sent some friends of his to rob me and then play the hero), but he terrorrized my sleep, tried to abuse me emotionally and certainly did financially, and just made life totally chaotic and full of drama. I learned as much as I could once I realized what was behind the mask and needed, including the bonding dynamics so that I could deconstruct those bonds as quickly as possible.

of course not every hostage situation develops stockholm syndrome but in Theon's case he did, his situation had all the conditions.

that seems like a very specific case of manipulation to create this bonding effect. however, I dont think this is the only case in which stockholm syndrome can occur, it often occurs without the captor doing it on purpose, not all captors are psychopaths, lots of them aren't. it's horrible that that happened to you though, hope you managed to safely get rid of that guy and managed to move on.

[Cas Stark]

1. I explained this before, he was a child that was shipped off to go live with the people whom, in his mind, were responsible for the burning down of his home -> badguys "to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. "

2. you are twisting the words of the text here. it doesn't say theon is required to see them as tormentors, in fact, it's all about being sympathetic to their captors. tormentors is just the choice of word from who ever wrote the text.

3. he never runs because escape is impossible, does it require him thinking about this, after robb let him go for you to realise that. he was in the heart of the north, surrounded by enemies.

4. quotes I provided you before

5. weither the stark's kindness is genuine or not is irrelevant, it probably was genuine, doesn't mean they aren't still his captors who are holding him under threat of death.

6. in winterfell... you know, surrounded by only northmen.

7. winterfell

doesn't seem so abstract and undefined to me, it's pretty clear, and it could happen any time...

LOL, okay, I'm done here. You don't even pay attention to the definitions you are posting yourself.

[INCBlackbird]

It doesn't fit the situation. Theon was given the run of castle, was allowed to do basically anything the Stark children did with select exceptions, was never isolated (and indeed was allowed to befriend the Stark heir), was never abused (punishment is not abuse unless it's really over the top, which it seemingly wasn't). The Starks never psychologically manipulated him, never threatened him with violence constantly; there was a threat, but no one reminds him of it that I remember. He doesn't have unconditional sympathy for the Stark cause (since he, you know, didn't side with them ultimately).

As others have said, the Reek-Ramsay situation is very solid Stockholm Syndrome. There is isolation, psychological manipulation, seeing the withholding of punishment as a kindness, irrational affection for someone who was only a constant abuser, very intense fear of physical harm, actual and unprovoked physical harm, everything fits there. Theon having some sympathy for people who overall treated him better than his own family, and loyalty for his one real friend, is not it.

isolation doesn't mean to be locked in a room, it means to be isolated in a place with only your captors as company (winterfell) the starks didn't need to psychologically manipulate him, theon believed he was in danger (he was under threat of death) and he developed stockholm syndrome as a coping mechanism, the starks didn't need to help him with that. no one reminds him of the threat? right, surely he's not reminded when ned takes him to execusions so theon can witness the fate that might befall him one day.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Robb still put his trust in him and he burned that, didnt even have the balls to least say sorry man im going with my family, steals his castle like a bitch turn cloak, still murdered 2 innocent farmer boys. Theon was in charge not Ramsay, he still went with it, that is a fucked up action. He should have nightmares and feel bad, doesnt give them their lives back

Considering what's happened to Theon since, I find this statement rather insensitive and in poor taste. :)

[sweetsunray]

that seems like a very specific case of manipulation to create this bonding effect. however, I dont think this is the only case in which stockholm syndrome can occur, it often occurs without the captor doing it on purpose, not all captors are psychopaths, lots of them aren't. it's horrible that that happened to you though, hope you managed to safely get rid of that guy and managed to move on.

True, the captor doesn't have to do it on purpose, but there needs to be a chaotic reward-punishment (and that includes threats of punishment) dyanamic. It just doesn't have to be intentional.

Of course not all captors are psychopaths. Some are, some have tendencies, some are not. And I would accede that the initial bonding with the Starks for Theone would have been right after becoming their ward: he must have feared and expected all kinds of terror, certainly with whatever Balon represented as a picture of the Starks. So he feared for his life when arriving there, and then being treated well (even if not warmly) that would have probably caused an instant relief bond within him. The fact that he was never treated badly, but also not treated as a blood relative is actually a situation that avoids any further trauma bonding. It is actually the healthiest treatment the Starks could give him. They treated him fair, and they didn't lie to him. There was no need to empathize with them for his mental survival at the cost of his own identity.

No worries. Long healed from it and I learned a lot from it. I was a strong person before it. It just helped me get rid of some innocent notions about humanity (such as everyone will try to do good if but given the chance), made me wiser and deal with boundary stuff even better than I did before.

[sweetsunray]

right, surely he's not reminded when ned takes him to execusions so theon can witness the fate that might befall him one day.

But so were Bran, Robb and Jon taken along. He wasn't taking along to witness an execution as a reminder, but as a member of the household with responsibilities.

[The Marquis de Leech]

To reiterate: Theon was a ten year old child, ripped away from his family, and thrust into a situation where he knew he could be killed at any time. He spent the next nine years trying to "become" a Stark, because the captivity screwed with his identity. He also simultaneously wants to prove himself a Greyjoy. He's an interesting character study of conflicting identity, but that shouldn't mean that we should pigeonhole it as "foster family who treated him well" vs "real family who treated him badly". All the nice treatment in the world doesn't wash out the fact that he was a hostage, under threat of death, from age ten, with no ability to see his real family. To argue otherwise is like arguing that Sansa owed a debt to the Lannisters, because Tyrion refused to force himself on her.

I think the root issue here is that the Starks simply enjoy protagonist privileges. People cheer for them, thus expect anyone who works against them (like Theon) to be a traitorous evil monster. Had Robb been taken as a captive by Balon, only to go back to Ned and lead a sneak attack on Pyke, one suspects everyone would consider him a hero. For no more complex reason than Starks are Good and Greyjoys are Evil.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And, yes, Theon's worst sin was agreeing to the child murder, something he agreed to out of desperation, and which caused him no end of guilt.

God forbid anyone going after Tyrion for having a guy turned into stew, or Robb causing the death of thousands because he couldn't handle the idea that his father was a convicted traitor.

[INCBlackbird]

True, the captor doesn't have to do it on purpose, but there needs to be a chaotic reward-punishment (and that includes threats of punishment) dyanamic. It just doesn't have to be intentional.

Of course not all captors are psychopaths. Some are, some have tendencies, some are not. And I would accede that the initial bonding with the Starks for Theone would have been right after becoming their ward: he must have feared and expected all kinds of terror, certainly with whatever Balon represented as a picture of the Starks. So he feared for his life when arriving there, and then being treated well (even if not warmly) that would have probably caused an instant relief bond within him. The fact that he was never treated badly, but also not treated as a blood relative is actually a situation that avoids any further trauma bonding. It is actually the healthiest treatment the Starks could give him. They treated him fair, and they didn't lie to him. There was no need to empathize with them for his mental survival at the cost of his own identity.

No worries. Long healed from it and I learned a lot from it. I was a strong person before it. It just helped me get rid of some innocent notions about humanity (such as everyone will try to do good if but given the chance), made me wiser and deal with boundary stuff even better than I did before.

this is exactly my point, theon expected all kinds of things when going to winterfell, but he didn't get abused (because the starks are not bad people) and he saw this as an act of kindess, while it's simply a case of them not being a psychopath. and he did live for 9 years with no control over his own life, only surrounded by people who disliked him by default (and robb) he tries to bond with the starks because he hopes that if his father ever rebels the starks will be too attached to him to kill him (aka stockholm syndrome), when this fails he just lies about it to himself. the starks did do their best, i'm not denying that but Theon was a hostage under threat of death, which is psychological abuse.

But so were Bran, Robb and Jon taken along. He wasn't taking along to witness an execution as a reminder, but as a member of the household with responsibilities.

weither or not it was intended as a reminder is irrelevant, theon knew Ned may kill him one day, to him it was a reminder of the fact that it may happen to him one day. which is clearly seen in the first GOT chapter where Theon kicks the head of the decapitated deserter and smiles. turning it into a joke is theon's way of coping with his fear it's him telling himself the situation is not so serious (denying the fear he is feeling) while simultaniously showing everyone arround him that he is not scared (because being scared is considered a sign of weakness "but I am not weak" theon told himself)

[INCBlackbird]

And, yes, Theon's worst sin was agreeing to the child murder, something he agreed to out of desperation, and which caused him no end of guilt.

God forbid anyone going after Tyrion for having a guy turned into stew, or Robb causing the death of thousands because he couldn't handle the idea that his father was a convicted traitor.

THIS!!! exactly this!!

[Cas Stark]

To reiterate: Theon was a ten year old child, ripped away from his family, and thrust into a situation where he knew he could be killed at any time. He spent the next nine years trying to "become" a Stark, because the captivity screwed with his identity. He also simultaneously wants to prove himself a Greyjoy. He's an interesting character study of conflicting identity, but that shouldn't mean that we should pigeonhole it as "foster family who treated him well" vs "real family who treated him badly". All the nice treatment in the world doesn't wash out the fact that he was a hostage, under threat of death, from age ten, with no ability to see his real family. To argue otherwise is like arguing that Sansa owed a debt to the Lannisters, because Tyrion refused to force himself on her.

I think the root issue here is that the Starks simply enjoy protagonist privileges. People cheer for them, thus expect anyone who works against them (like Theon) to be a traitorous evil monster. Had Robb been taken as a captive by Balon, only to go back to Ned and lead a sneak attack on Pyke, one suspects everyone would consider him a hero. For no more complex reason than Starks are Good and Greyjoys are Evil.

That's true, but yet, the truth is that his foster father certainly treated him better than his real father, since we see that his real father, in point of actual fact, not future, possible theoretical fact, but real, actual fact, was prepared for Theon to die, since he was rebelling again, and had been planning to attack with no thought of Theon, when Theon was still a "captive" of the Starks. So, we know for an absolute fact that Balon didn't care if his son lived or died. We can only project and speculate on the future that never happened what would have happened to Theon if he had still been a prisoner of the Starks.

We know he thinks of Robb as a brother and that his real brothers gave him serious beatings as a very, very young boy, under the age of 10. Doesn't sound too good either, to me.