Daenerys first big military defeat.

[eyenon15]

Wasn't Blackwater Stannis' first defeat? And he was near 40 years old right? After a full lifetime of wins.

Dany has to lose before the age of 20 to make it even?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

This is from your OP: "As a Baratheon supporter, I just cant wait for the first time Daenerys is bitting the dust in a big, important, clear military defeat where she gets her ass kicked."

That's personal taste

ETA: I think complaining about her victories misses the point of her arc. Conquering is easy. Ruling is the problem. That's what it's all about.

Its and introduction, not the topic I suggested.

What I want to happen has nothing to do with it. It was just when, or if it is going to happen at all, and why. Nothing else.

[Malik Ambar]

It makes me sad when fanboys and fangirls bicker over who's better in a set of characters that are bound to team up to save the day , just like those batman vs superman debates. Hell ,at least those are interesting and don't make you feel like banging your head against a wall after a while.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Wasn't Blackwater Stannis' first defeat? And he was near 40 years old right? After a full lifetime of wins.

Dany has to lose before the age of 20 to make it even?

35. And he was at war only five years of his life, so really is quite the same.

[RoamingRonin]

Its and introduction, not the topic I suggested.

What I want to happen has nothing to do with it. It was just when, or if it is going to happen at all, and why. Nothing else.

Why do you think it's necessary for her to lose a major battle? Will it teach her humility or something? You've not come up with a reason except to make you feel good so it all comes back to personal taste.

Robb won all of his battles and died. The Lannisters lost several battles but still kept the throne. Losing a battle doesn't really mean anything without context.

Stannis lost on the Blackwater because he's an idiot that keeps listening to Melisandre. He's the blue-eyed king with no shadow because he insists on lying to himself and the world that he's Azor Ahai. If you're tired of supporting a loser then pick another character. You don't have to be a Baratheon supporter, you know.

[The King in Black]

It makes me sad when fanboys and fangirls bicker over who's better in a set of characters that are bound to team up to save the day , just like those batman vs superman debates. Hell ,at least those are interesting and don't make you feel like banging your head against a wall after a while.

THIS! SO MUCH THIS!!!

/thread

[eyenon15]

35. And he was at war only five years of his life, so really is quite the same.

And how many years has Dany been at war?

Shouldn't matter anyway, Stannis didn't lose the war when he lost at Blackwater, it was just a battle.

What? It has to be fair and Danys army has to retreat from battle once?

Dany and Stannis are still in similar positions politically now, I don't see why it matters so much about battle records. Stannis has lost one more battle than Dany, wow....how ridiculous. Robb didn't even lose in battle, he had one more successful attempt at taking his life than Dany or Stannis has.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Why do you think it's necessary for her to lose a major battle? Will it teach her humility or something? You've not come up with a reason except to make you feel good so it all comes back to personal taste.

Robb won all of his battles and died. The Lannisters lost several battles but still kept the throne. Losing a battle doesn't really mean anything without context.

Stannis lost on the Blackwater because he's an idiot that keeps listening to Melisandre. He's the blue-eyed king with no shadow because he insists on lying to himself and the world that he's Azor Ahai. If you're tired of supporting a loser then pick another character. You don't have to be a Baratheon supporter, you know.

If you want to argue, unlist read my posts. Robb did lose battles in the same way Daenerys wins them.

And Its not about me feeling gooood her losing. Lets say for example that when her banners go into battle it would be interesting to expect she can either lose or win. The same goes when she has to rule...it would be far more interesting books if she doesnt enter in a flawless victory mode. Even Aragorn gets hs comunity splitted, even for a superduper fanboy wouldnt be more interesting to feel she can lose, or either than she loses and she comes back from it? But that was not even the point of the thread you lazy reader: Its so hard to understand I just want to hear opinions about if she was losing at one point or not???? and how??? Is it not clear enough in the OP?

And have you ever read the books? Melissandre was not on the Blackwaters. And why the hell does Stannis need to come up in every Daenerys thread?

I dont know why I even bother, you are clearly trolling.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And how many years has Dany been at war?

Shouldn't matter anyway, Stannis didn't lose the war when he lost at Blackwater, it was just a battle.

What? It has to be fair and Danys army has to retreat from battle once?

Dany and Stannis are still in similar positions politically now, I don't see why it matters so much about battle records. Stannis has lost one more battle than Dany, wow....how ridiculous. Robb didn't even lose in battle, he had one more successful attempt at taking his life than Dany or Stannis has.

Robb did lose battles in the same way Daenerys wins hers.

It would be more interesting to read not knowing if she can win or lose when her banners go into battles. aswell as not knowing if she can succed or not ruling. Thats my personal taste, but it was not even the point of the thread.

You know why the battle of ice gets so much hype and nobody cares about the one in Mereen??? Becasuse we all know Daenerys will end up winning. Even Martin himself feels that way. How many chapters of the upcoming Mereen battle has he relized? 4 or 5... And how many about the siege of WF? ... 1

[TheMysteriousOne]

If that's against me, that's a strawman. My Dany dislike has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman. As I've stated in other threads, and won't go into full detail here, the plot armor around her is particularly jarring. Plans that at best appear like their guaranteed to fail somehow turn around and work out perfectly, either through sheer unbelievable levels of incompetence on the parts of her enemies, or through luck. She then engages in treachery after two agreements. I'm not big on lying treacherous people, regardless of the gender of the person.

This is really the only part of your post that I have a major disagreement with. In what universe should honoring an oath/agreement/promise supersede attempting to end the anguish and suffering of thousands of slaves? If what Dany did is a "lying and treachery", then I approve. Words are wind and cannot compare to the worth people's lives.

Yes, the way Dany performed the 'sack of Astapor' was nowhere near morally correct, however had she chosen to kill or imprison a select few of the Masters (and not everyone with a tokar), I would have commended her actions as quite correct. My problem with the incident was the somewhat indiscriminate killings, however I'm perfectly fine with the idea of betraying the masters. How does an agreement, oath etc. compare with the lives of thousands of slaves who are toiling and suffering? How does having an agreement with Daenerys and letting her stay in their city essentially exonerate them of their heinous actions?

One thing that we've learned in the series is that many oaths/promises/agreements pretty much mean nothing and often cause conflict with regards to morality. For example, because of their oaths to Aerys, the Kinsguard chose to stand by and let Aerys rape and maul his wife. According to your logic, because they swore an oath, the Kingsguard were right to let Rhaella suffer, and if they opposed Aerys, they would've been dishonorable and treacherous.

Does that sound right?

[eyenon15]

And have you ever read the books? Melissandre was not on the Blackwaters. And why the hell does Stannis need to come up in every Daenerys thread?

It's not just a Daenyrys thread, Stannis was brought up in the OP.

[JonSnow4President]

I really struggle with your assessment of her character here. You think that tricking the Astapori and the Yunkai makes her a lying and treacherous character beyond redemption? Do you consider her to be that kind of person?

I guess you're free to place your sympathies where you choose but feeling sorry for the slavers is....odd.

And the perverted sense of justice, well, we'll have to disagree on that as well.

I find all the plot armour or gifts criticism really besides the point as well - GRRM has an arc for all his characters and they all have highs and lows along the road to where he wants them. Tyrion got parachuted in as Hand of the King, and Jon got elected the boy commander of the NW by the simplest bit of politicking by Sam and a bit of mummery with a raven in a cauldron. At the end of ADWD Jon is getting stabbed and Tyrion is a slave - I'm sure their stories aren't done yet and GRRM will write them where he wants them to go. But plot armour? Can you imagine how boring the story would be if every time a character was in a tricky situation or needed a game-changing development (hello Starks = Wargs, Arya meet Jaqan Hgar) he axed it?

As to the OP well, what is it about a big military defeat for Dany that you are looking forward to? The deaths of a few thousand Unsullied or freedmen? The shattering of the hopes of the slaves in Volantis that Vogarro's whore told Tyrion to relay to her, "Tell her we are waiting, tell her to come soon". The slaughter of her forces before a tidal wave of ice zombies marching relentlessly through Westeros? There will be setbacks no doubt to add to the drama but I don't relish a big defeat for her the way you seem to - thousands of deaths so she can lose or suffer. There's a much bigger picture here.

1) "Hey, I want to buy your gun. In return, I'll give you this really awesome diamond worth a lot of money"

"Okay, deal!. Here's the gun, and I"ll just take this diamond."

*inserts shell into gun, BAM, picks up diamond*

Since when is that not treachery? I'm not going to say she didn't do it for a noble cause, but it's still a blow below the belt. Yunkai is much worse in my eyes. If you can't see how that one in particular is reprehensible (I'm not saying agree, I'm saying see), we will never see eye to eye.

2) I will always place my sympathies with those who are wrongfully executed. They were slavers when slavery was okay, and didn't have the opportunity to break the new system when Dany came in. Without any sort of trial to acertain their guilt in the murder of the 163, I'm sympathizing with the slavers. Putting the pool that contains the murderers, who likely have the power to avoid being picked, in charge of selecting those for revenge is also a bad move.

3) So we have the slavers above as witness to a perverted sense of justice, which can be just fine IMO IF you assume that all 163 were guilty of murdering the children (I don't think we can make that assumption). Torturing the winesellers daughters because of an affiliation with an assassin is not justice. The "court' ruling where she says a woman lost her house because she ran from being murdered is also not justice. Quite frankly, I'd be terrified of what she'd do if she came across some innocent Lannisters (all of them remaining), Baratheons (only Stannis actively participated in the war), Starks (all of the ones remaining are innocent), or Robin (who despite being a brat, is innocent of a rebellion), not to mention the rebellion is entirely justified in the first place.

[JonSnow4President]

This is really the only part of your post that I have a major disagreement with. In what universe should honoring an oath/agreement/promise supersede attempting to end the anguish and suffering of thousands of slaves? If what Dany did is a "lying and treachery", then I approve. Words are wind and cannot compare to the worth people's lives.

Yes, the way Dany performed the 'sack of Astapor' was nowhere near morally correct, however had she chosen to kill or imprison a select few of the Masters (and not everyone with a tokar), I would have commended her actions as quite correct. My problem with the incident was the somewhat indiscriminate killings, however I'm perfectly fine with the idea of betraying the masters. How does an agreement, oath etc. compare with the lives of thousands of slaves who are toiling and suffering? How does having an agreement with Daenerys and letting her stay in their city exonerate them of their heinous actions?

One thing that we've learned in the series is that many oaths/promises/agreements pretty much mean nothing and often cause conflict with regards to morality. For example, because of their oaths to Aerys, the Kinsguard chose to stand by and let Aerys rape and maul his wife. According to your logic, because they swore an oath, the Kingsguard were right to let Rhaella suffer, and if they opposed Aerys, they would've been dishonorable and treacherous.

Does that sound right?

I'm not a Stannis fan, but the bad does not outweigh the good, nor the good the bad.

In Astapor, it's somewhat mitigated in that she doesn't really have the means to do anything. In Yunkai, it's a pure lack of integrity.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

I believe her armies will lose some battles against Aegon in her upcoming war against him, but those will probably be battles that we won't see, and I doubt she'll be in command.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I'm not a Stannis fan, but the bad does not outweigh the good, nor the good the bad.

In Astapor, it's somewhat mitigated in that she doesn't really have the means to do anything. In Yunkai, it's a pure lack of integrity.

All in all, I approve of the betrayal of the masters at Astapor. You do what you're supposed to do in spite of oaths and supposed 'honor'. Isn't this why so many posters wish to find some way to get Jon out of the NW? Isn't this why many people applaud Jaime's actions as the Kingslayer? This is simply because honor does not necessarily equal morality.

In Yunkai, I do agree that it was treachery, but it was an act many in our world would, and have, committed.

[eyenon15]

Her big setback was when Drogo died, the khalasar left and she lost the baby.

That period before the dragons were hatched looked like Dany was done for.

This certainly should be a comparable setback to losing a military battle in her storyline.

[RoamingRonin]

If you want to argue, unlist read my posts. Robb did lose battles in the same way Daenerys wins them.

And Its not about me feeling gooood her losing. Lets say for example that when her banners go into battle it would be interesting to expect she can either lose or win. The same goes when she has to rule...it would be far more interesting books if she doesnt enter in a flawless victory mode. Even Aragorn gets hs comunity splitted, even for a superduper fanboy wouldnt be more interesting to feel she can lose, or either than she loses and she comes back from it? But that was not even the point of the thread you lazy reader: Its so hard to understand I just want to hear opinions about if she was losing at one point or not???? and how??? Is it not clear enough in the OP?

And have you ever read the books? Melissandre was not on the Blackwaters. And why the hell does Stannis need to come up in every Daenerys thread?

I dont know why I even bother, you are clearly trolling.

It would depend on how GRRM handled the story but you seem to have your opinions already set in stone. If Dany wins all her fights, you'll be upset because that's "bad writing" but if she loses a major battle you'll be happy. You don't even know what the circumstances might be but you already know how you'll feel.

What if the battle Dany loses is the War for the Dawn and the world ends? What if she wins every battle but the cost of her victories made the effort not worth it? She wins but loses her dragons, her army, her best councillors.

This is why I insist this is all a matter of personal taste. Considering who her enemies are, I am hoping she comes out on top. There's a chance Dany and Jon might clash and I reserve my judgment for that one. But when it comes to Dany vs. the Slavers, Dany vs. Aegon, Dany vs. Stannis... I hope she wins.

Melisandre was not at the battle but her visions contributed to the Baratheon defeat. I mentioned Stannis for the same reasons I mentioned Robb and the Lannisters: to make my point.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

It would depend on how GRRM handled the story but you seem to have your opinions already set in stone. If Dany wins all her fights, you'll be upset because that's "bad writing" but if she loses a major battle you'll be happy. You don't even know what the circumstances might be but you already know how you'll feel.

What if the battle Dany loses is the War for the Dawn and the world ends? What if she wins every battle but the cost of her victories made the effort not worth it? She wins but loses her dragons, her army, her best councillors.

This is why I insist this is all a matter of personal taste. Considering who her enemies are, I am hoping she comes out on top. There's a chance Dany and Jon might clash and I reserve my judgment for that one. But when it comes to Dany vs. the Slavers, Dany vs. Aegon, Dany vs. Stannis... I hope she wins.

Melisandre was not at the battle but her visions contributed to the Baratheon defeat. I mentioned Stannis for the same reasons I mentioned Robb and the Lannisters: to make my point.

take a look at how much exaiment the battle of ice brings, and how little the upcoming Mereen clash does. Add than George himself has no problem giving us 4 or 5 AWOW sample chapters of this battle, while he just gave up one of the battle of ice. You know why this is happening? Because we all know Daenerys is winning there, and it is not fun at all.

[LaVeysProphet]

take a look at how much exaiment the battle of ice brings, and how little the upcoming Mereen clash does. Add than George himself has no problem giving us 4 or 5 AWOW sample chapters of this battle, while he just gave up one of the battle of ice. You know why this is happening? Because we all know Daenerys is winning there, and it is not fun at all.

We get it, you hate Dany.

[RoamingRonin]

take a look at how much exaiment the battle of ice brings, and how little the upcoming Mereen clash does. Add than George himself has no problem giving us 4 or 5 AWOW sample chapters of this battle, while he just gave up one of the battle of ice. You know why this is happening? Because we all know Daenerys is winning there, and it is not fun at all.

Maybe because samples of the Winterfell battle might ruin the mystery if the bastard letter. That's my guess.