Daenerys first big military defeat.

[Nictarion]

I would hope that even those who consider Dany a "wonderful grey character," and then proceed to whitewash her into perfection, realize that something needs to go wrong for her at some point, or it just wouldn't feel Martin-esque.

Have you even read ADwD?

[PirateVergo]

if George doesnt want her to be the perfect undefeated champion

Dany is a mary sue and GRRM does want het to be the perfect undefeated champion.

[Nictarion]

I don't see why she has to lose any battle just to make people here happy. She has lost enough in her life. And no I don't think she will otherwise die to service another character such as Jon

She will die or lose on her own terms. Deal with it

This!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It's a bit disheartening to see people viewing Dany's arc as "She has too much power so her time must come".

Dany's arc is about power, it's about the struggles and successes someone with power faces. Dany having unfettered power is both an advantage and a disadvantage, every decision she make will have either a massive good effect or a massive bad effect. How she limits or unlimits her power can have massive effects. So it's not some sort of cheat that Dany is "undefeated" because many of those victories also had massive negative impacts.

[Nictarion]

Again. More untrue statements. Dany has suffered many failures.

- Crossing the Redwaste results in the starvation and death of many of her people.

- Trusting the Qartheen results in the stealing of her Dragons.

- Not setting up a more stable government in Astapor results in turmoil.

- Not killing the Yunkish and setting up at least some government in Yunkai results in the sacking of Astapor and the eventual problem we have in ADWD

- Not treating the slavers of Meereen better results in the Harpy problem.

- Not spending time to train her Dragons results in one of the biggest set backs of them being feral and having to re tame them.

Saying she doesn't have any set backs or failures is clearly BS. Robb never lost a battle either but look at all the problems he had.

The dragons getting stolen was show only, but the rest of these points are all valid.

[JonSnow4President]

Again. More untrue statements. Dany has suffered many failures.

- Crossing the Redwaste results in the starvation and death of many of her people.

- Trusting the Qartheen results in the stealing of her Dragons.

- Not setting up a more stable government in Astapor results in turmoil.

- Not killing the Yunkish and setting up at least some government in Yunkai results in the sacking of Astapor and the eventual problem we have in ADWD

- Not treating the slavers of Meereen better results in the Harpy problem.

- Not spending time to train her Dragons results in one of the biggest set backs of them being feral and having to re tame them.

Saying she doesn't have any set backs or failures is clearly BS. Robb never lost a battle either but look at all the problems he had.

I didn't say no setbacks. I said no military or political setbacks. And quite frankly, despite setbacks to her causes, she herself is unharmed and unchanged. The only thing I feel comfortable saying has changed between end of GoT Dany and current Dany is that she has a more concrete opinion on slavery. The closest thing she has to what I would consider a comparable setback is being "forced" to marry Hizdar. And interestingly enough, every single one of those is Dany's actions, rather than her being outmaneuvered by a better player

Have you even read ADwD?

Show me something in Dany's storyline that compares to Stannis' defeat on the blackwater or Robb's murder. Dany's setbacks have been her side projects on her way to Westeros suffering issues, but she herself is untouched at present.

[Sir Lee knot]

I didn't say no setbacks. I said no military or political setbacks. And quite frankly, despite setbacks to her causes, she herself is unharmed and unchanged. The only thing I feel comfortable saying has changed between end of GoT Dany and current Dany is that she has a more concrete opinion on slavery.

Edit: Coming w/ p2 responses

Everything to deal with the slavers are political set backs.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I didn't say no setbacks. I said no military or political setbacks. And quite frankly, despite setbacks to her causes, she herself is unharmed and unchanged. The only thing I feel comfortable saying has changed between end of GoT Dany and current Dany is that she has a more concrete opinion on slavery.

Edit: Coming w/ p2 responses

This, I mean, it doesnt matter if I dislike Daenerys or not, its just about the military aspect of her journey, while everybody else has to face losing battles and coming weakened from them

The thread is just about if people think she will face one at some point, or just continue to be flawless at the battlefield, and maybe failing at other leveles as she already did and I adressed.

By the way, according to Robb, Robb master plan did go wrong and failed at the Ford. Daenerys military plots (the ones her staff do for her) havent ever gone wrong. And thats was just the point of the whole thread.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Again. More untrue statements. Dany has suffered many failures.

- Crossing the Redwaste results in the starvation and death of many of her people.

- Trusting the Qartheen results in the stealing of her Dragons.

- Not setting up a more stable government in Astapor results in turmoil.

- Not killing the Yunkish and setting up at least some government in Yunkai results in the sacking of Astapor and the eventual problem we have in ADWD

- Not treating the slavers of Meereen better results in the Harpy problem.

- Not spending time to train her Dragons results in one of the biggest set backs of them being feral and having to re tame them.

Saying she doesn't have any set backs or failures is clearly BS. Robb never lost a battle either but look at all the problems he had.

She had no choice but to cross the red waste and enter Qarth. Crossing the red waste kills off some of her ridiculously weak "khalasar" but she does lose anything of value.*

Entering Qarth meant she temporarily lost her dragons and reclaimed them while seeing visions of her past.

The turmoil in Astapor has exactly *zero* effects on anything but her mental status

Completely killing the Yunkish would have brought down more hell on her in Mereen.

The slavers of Mereen were always going to oppose her. Even if she hadn't nailed 163 of them to a cross, they're still going to physically resist someone who outlaws slavery and closes the fighting ring. That's their entire economy.

Not training her dragons is only a setback because she can't or won't train them. That's entirely self-inflicted. It's like saying Hemingway was prevented from writing books after 1961.

* Yes human life as value but she lost nothing as a leader she hadn't already seen or experienced

[JonSnow4President]

Are you sure you read the books kiddo?

Um, can you point out what you believe is wrong?

Red Waste he's correct.

House of the Undying, no harm outside the 5 minutes she was in there (see, hyperbole on the time)

Astapor- besides adding those outside Mereen as refugees, how exacty does this derail her campaign? (And as of now, I'd say the refugees haven't done shit besides make her feel bad)

Yunkai- I don't like playing with hypotheticals. Astapor failed without the Yunkish influence. The Yunkish helped seige the city, but who is to say she would have successfully taken the city and still had enough force to march on Mereen? Regardless, she hasn't suffered any personal harm or substantially changed as a person as a result of not killing the Yunkish (which I would also like to point out is her decision, not a defeat).

Mereen- He says they wouldn't lie down for her as a conquerer, no matter what she did, since we was changing a vital part of the powerfuls' way of life. What is wrong?

The dragons going wild are all on her...

[Sir Lee knot]

In all honesty and disregarding difference in opinion, probably more than you. I reread books a lot. I think I've gone through the WoT series 3-4 times. I've gone through ASOIAF at least as often.

It's okay, you don't have to justify yourself to me. I accept you as you are already.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's okay, you don't have to justify yourself to me. I accept you as you are already.

If you have an actual point of contention, please type it out. Right now you're just embarrassing yourself.

[Sir Lee knot]

Um, can you point out what you believe is wrong?

Red Waste he's correct.

House of the Undying, no harm outside the 5 minutes she was in there (see, hyperbole on the time)

Astapor- besides adding those outside Mereen as refugees, how exacty does this derail her campaign? (And as of now, I'd say the refugees haven't done shit besides make her feel bad)

Yunkai- I don't like playing with hypotheticals. Astapor failed without the Yunkish influence. The Yunkish helped seige the city, but who is to say she would have successfully taken the city and still had enough force to march on Mereen? Regardless, she hasn't suffered any personal harm or substantially changed as a person as a result of not killing the Yunkish (which I would also like to point out is her decision, not a defeat).

Mereen- He says they wouldn't lie down for her as a conquerer, no matter what she did, since we was changing a vital part of the powerfuls' way of life. What is wrong?

The dragons going wild are all on her...

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you in that quote. I'll get to you in a minute.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you in that quote. I'll get to you in a minute.

You don't have to. You can respond like a normal human being to the question.

[JonSnow4President]

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you in that quote. I'll get to you in a minute.

Yeah, I know you weren't talking to me. That still doesn't change the fact that I'm responding to your comment, and calling :bs: on your call of :bs:

[JustAnObsessedFan]

If she suffers an actual military defeat, it's probably going to be at the hands of the WW.

This. With 3 Dragons, nothing in Westeros can really defeat her.

[JonSnow4President]

This. With 3 Dragons, nothing in Westeros can really defeat her.

Yup, and the british empire would never lose to American rebels.

Or American technological superiority would completely crush Korea (did until Chinese involvement) or Vietnam.

Its war. Crazy stuff happens, and Dany isn't nearly the level of tactician as what was available to the British Army, McArthur, or anyone else with an actual sense of tactics.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yup, and the british empire would never lose to American rebels.

Or American technological superiority would completely crush Korea (did until Chinese involvement) or Vietnam.

Its war. Crazy stuff happens, and Dany isn't nearly the level of tactician as what was available to the British Army, McArthur, or anyone else with an actual sense of tactics.

The British didn't lose to American rebels. They lost to American rebels allied to the 2nd most powerful country in the world. US gets nowhere without French ships, supplies, and some erstwhile allies like de Lafayette.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

This. With 3 Dragons, nothing in Westeros can really defeat her.

three teenage dragons, and she has no control on them whatsoever, no riders, nor the knolwdge to use them

she is not Aegon the Conqueror raiding a 200 years old Belarion.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

I don't see why she has to lose any battle just to make people here happy. She has lost enough in her life. And no I don't think she will otherwise die to service another character such as Jon

She will die or lose on her own terms. Deal with it

I agree. It seems to me she has many haters simply because she's a woman & she's more powerful than anyone in Westeros. I'm sorry but if anyone thinks she's been given everything on a silver platter - they're incredibly narrow minded, and even sexist.

It's not her fault her father was a complete nutcase. She was shipped away by her family's killers with a brother who mentally and physically abused her throughout childhood. She was forced to marry a man she did not love by her brother, for her brother whilst still a child. The love that eventuated between her & Drogo was fantastically written by George, and happened because Daenerys was finally independent. Also, a really obvious part of her character is her 'gentle heart'. Ultimately, she's a good person. That's why people (men in particular) help her. She can change Westeros. She always has the common people in mind. People like Jorah & Barristan understand that.

That said, flaws are naturally developing. Ruling is not easy - she's realised that. She's adapting. She's learning. She's still young (yes, this doesn't excuse her flaws - but it's an undeniable reason as to why her journey is proving difficult). Her dragons, which will see her conquer Westeros no doubt, are proving to be more evil than good - and this goes against Dany's character IMO. She'll never turn her back on her dragons - they're dragons after all, and as far as we know, she's the only person in their world who can have them. They are her weapon.

Anyhow, yes she'll win or die on her own terms.