Jon, Bloodraven, Mel, and TWOW Spoilers

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Whose one would "count"? Mel's kiss of fire or Bloordaven's Heart Tree sacrifice?

I think they're both going to play a role (well, fire, not necessarily Melisandre herself). It's old gods vs. red god dichotomy. My favorite crackpot is that it'll be the same sort of process as hatching the dead dragon eggs: a blood sacrifice to give life force and a fire to "wake the dragon."

As for Beric and losing your sense of identity, I think that's where Ghost comes in. Ghost acts as a "placeholder" for Jon's consciousness that Beric and Catelyn never had. It keeps his sense of self from degrading, at least in the short term. So if Jon wargs into Ghost and then back into his healed body, he wouldn't have the mental degradation that Beric and Catelyn had, because neither of them had a "placeholder" the way Jon does with Ghost.

[Faint]

I continue to be boggled by the suggestion that the "kiss of life" is applicable to Jon's case. Beric and Catelyn did not have their selves transposed into an animal when their respective human bodies stopped life functions. They were very truly pulled back from the dead.

In Jon's particular circumstance, he simply needs a functioning human body. I would look more to whatever Moqorro did to Victarion or whatever has been done to Melisandre, which might actually be one and the same, for answers before blithely assuming that Thoros' methods are the key.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

As for Beric and losing your sense of identity, I think that's where Ghost comes in. Ghost acts as a "placeholder" for Jon's consciousness that Beric and Catelyn never had. It keeps his sense of self from degrading, at least in the short term. So if Jon wargs into Ghost and then back into his healed body, he wouldn't have the mental degradation that Beric and Catelyn had, because neither of them had a "placeholder" the way Jon does with Ghost.

Thank you for this. I was having trouble with this issue, but obviously this makes a lot of sense. the Varamyr prologue showed the possibilities of wargs, keeping their "self" intact makes sense.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

Every time Beric died he lost a small part of himself.

Fire Consumes - Ice Preserves

Beric's many deaths taught us that his way is not the way to resurrect. Lady Stoneheart anyone!

Ice & Fire is the way. With a little kings Blood magic thrown in.

What if the sacrifice is not Asha or Theon. But Theon Durdon (& Bran and BR) sacrificing Stannis the Mannis? I certainly hope not but someone has to die. Who will it be?

I dont buy Jon not dying. That is too unamazing.

[Ras Al Gimur]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is there any evidence that sacrificing someone to the Old Gods can make someone resurrect? It's been a while since I've read the books, but for me it seems like speculation...

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I continue to be boggled by the suggestion that the "kiss of life" is applicable to Jon's case. Beric and Catelyn did not have their selves transposed into an animal when their respective human bodies stopped life functions. They were very truly pulled back from the dead.

In Jon's particular circumstance, he simply needs a functioning human body. I would look more to whatever Moqorro did to Victarion or whatever has been done to Melisandre, which might actually be one and the same, for answers before blithely assuming that Thoros' methods are the key.

Jons body will be preserved (frozen) this whole situation will be unique if he is dead because Beric and Cat actually die for periods of time and do not exist, there bodies are butchered. Varamyr dies but stays alive in his animals however he does not have the opportunity to come back but if Mel, Catelyn or Thoros get to Jon he gets his body back not rotted like Cat and his mind is in tact he was alive the whole time.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is there any evidence that sacrificing someone to the Old Gods can make someone resurrect? It's been a while since I've read the books, but for me it seems like speculation...

"Only death can pay for life." Pretty straightforward, no?

We've seen visions of people being sacrificed to weirwoods, so that at least in a thing.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Jon comes back and when he gets to winterfell he is woounded cause in his dream he's on a crutch in the crypt in pain i think this is a vision into the future

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

"Only death can pay for life." Pretty straightforward, no?

We've seen visions of people being sacrificed to weirwoods, so that at least in a thing.

that's not the words of the old god's that's Arya's new god

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

that's not the words of the old god's that's Arya's new god

I think the point is that it's a universal concept. It all has to balance out.

[Ras Al Gimur]

I think the point is that it's a universal concept. It all has to balance out.

So should it apply to the Seven, for instance? Or to any other god? Can they resurrect people if you make a proper sacrifice?

I can't see how a phrase linked to the Many Faced God plus the fact that people used to sacrifice to the Old Gods could be considered SOLID evidence. They may point to something, ok, but I can't see it as something obvious (as it seems to be to you, if I understood it correctly).

[Faint]

Only death can pay for life . . . but Jon is not dead.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Do we actually have proof of old gods sacrifice ? Sorry I just can't remember, personally I don't take Brans vision as proof just a killing until I have real proof

[Ras Al Gimur]

Do we actually have proof of old gods sacrifice ? Sorry I just can't remember, personally I don't take Brans vision as proof just a killing until I have real proof

If not a sacrifice, it does look like an execution, to say the least. The fact that is an old woman doing it makes me think it could be a sacrifice. But that is far far from the idea that it would resurrect someone...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do we actually have proof of old gods sacrifice ? Sorry I just can't remember, personally I don't take Brans vision as proof just a killing until I have real proof

I'm not sure about a death-for-life sacrifice, but we do know there have been weirwood sacrifices. The slaves freed in the Wolf's Den slung the slavers' entrails through the weirwood tree as a sacrifice. And generally religious sacrifices are done to get something out of it; good crops, good weather, whatever.

And Asha tells Stannis in WoW to execute Theon as a sacrifice to the old gods.

So should it apply to the Seven, for instance? Or to any other god? Can they resurrect people if you make a proper sacrifice?

The Seven, near as I can tell, aren't based in any actual magic, just protocol, customs, etc. Whereas with the red god, the old gods, even (I'd argue) the drowned god, there's some kind of active magic going on. Not necessarily an actual deity or deities, but some magical force that works through the practitioners.

[SeanF]

I'm not sure about a death-for-life sacrifice, but we do know there have been weirwood sacrifices. The slaves freed in the Wolf's Den slung the slavers' entrails through the weirwood tree as a sacrifice. And generally religious sacrifices are done to get something out of it; good crops, good weather, whatever.

And Asha tells Stannis in WoW to execute Theon as a sacrifice to the old gods.

The Seven, near as I can tell, aren't based in any actual magic, just protocol, customs, etc. Whereas with the red god, the old gods, even (I'd argue) the drowned god, there's some kind of active magic going on. Not necessarily an actual deity or deities, but some magical force that works through the practitioners.

The ability to forge Valyrian steel seems to be linked to human sacrifice, as well.

[Muggle]

I dont think Jon will lose his memory's. Mostly due to him still being conscious inside of Ghost. Also I doubt his body will die. I always assumed Mel would do a similar trick that Moroqo did for Vict. Turn his flesh into fire. Mel's Blood is black and smokes etc.. So she has dabbles in that kind of magic before.

Jon will awaken harsh, cold, more Wolf like. Doing what needs to be done for the pack but not giving a shit about any one else. He will resemble the ancient Kings in the North / Kings of Winter. But he will have a patched up body enhanced with Magic. Giving him more strength then before.

Just a possibility any way.

I just dont want an Un Jon

[Crowford]

I don't really see where the idea of a Bloodraven-engineered resurrection comes from. At no point has there been any suggestion that the Children or the Greenseers had that ability, or that the sacrifices to the old gods had anything to do with achieving resurrection. And I personally even have my doubts that keeping Jon alive is a part of Bloodraven's agenda.

And actually, even Melisandra is kinda flimsy in this regard. Thoros has been the one resurrecting people. And he was absolutely baffled when it happened. I don't remember outright bringing people back from the dead ever being something that Melisandre claimed she could do. If both she and Thoros draw power from the same force (be it a type of magic or be it a supernatural being), then yes, she might be able to do it to Jon, but who says it was the same? Thoros certainly wasn't very successful in the R'hllor-magic department until he could suddenly (and inadvertently) revive Beric. I don't think that was the same kind of magic Melisandre was using.

Though there HAS been another proven force to revive the dead. Whatever makes the wights. And whatever made Coldhands, which might be the same thing, or not.

Now, I have no doubt that Jon survives, at least for a while. Varamyr showed that even if no one can immediately bring him back to life, he would revert to living in Ghost in any case. And since I think it's highly unlikely that we will continue the series with a wolf-pov for an extended time, I do think he will come back bodily as well. I am just not that sure it's going to be Melisandre's doing.

[Veltigar]

So, at the end of TWOW Jon is either dead, or really really close to being dead. And we all know the major importance that he has to the story.

Knowing that, do you think that, during the moment Jon is being (I assume he really died) resurrected, could Bloodraven actually get in Mel's way, and vice versa? Since Bran and Bloodraven seem to be guiding Stannis into making a king's blood sacrifice for the Heart Tree through the screaming ravens, could it happen that both "resurrecions" happen at the same time? And if so, there are two questions to be made:

1. Whose one would "count"? Mel's kiss of fire or Bloordaven's Heart Tree sacrifice?

2. We know through Beric Dondarrion that a man loses almost all of his memories from before when he is resurrected with the fiery kiss. Does the Heart Tree have the same effect, or does it work like a video-game like "respawn"?

So, what do you guys think?

They would both count. I think Mel's fire magic will restore his body. That seems to be something the Red Gods servants are good at, if the body is properly stored. However, Jon's mind would be gone, since it will probably be quite some time before ressurection. That's where BR and Ghost come in. Jon's mind lives on, intact in Ghost, after his body is restored, Bran and/or BR will lead his mind back into his body. This will leave Jon with a more wolfish spirit, but he would still retain most of his prestabbing traits.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

We're not even sure whether the Varamyr prologue is meant explain anything in Jon's story...I see a possibility that it is meant for Arya instead. I do think Jon will warg into Ghost to survive the stabbing (thus Mel's vision of man/wolf/man) but the circumstances of a permanent warging into the wolf like the prologue aren't really the same. I think that GRRM may be setting up a situation where one of the remaining Stark children lives on as a wolf at the end of the series and my bet is on Arya. Sansa lost her wolf and the Nym/Arya wolf could be her new guardian....or Jon's, as I fear he may lose Ghost at some point.