Heresy 130

[wolfmaid7]

Man you guys are amazing,there is like four texts that is spot on no ambiguity and you guys are focused on the one quote that has more holes than a sieve.One quote that four quotes outright dismisses.It is clear that from the second quote Ser Puddles is the first WW Sam saw.Or are you guys going with group Amnesia ?

Double negative !!! Its a POV that's how a person would think when your thought is all fractured (Cold hunger tired) grammar be danm

Yeahhh I'm going to stick with only Wights on the Fist,infront the cave,v6 and Thistle,Sam and Gilly,Hardome etc.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Man you guys are amazing,there is like four texts that is spot on no ambiguity and you guys are focused on the one quote that has more holes than a sieve.One quote that four quotes outright dismisses.It is clear that from the second quote Ser Puddles is the first WW Sam saw.Or are you guys going with group Amnesia ?

Double negative !!! Its a POV that's how a person would think when your thought is all fractured (Cold hunger tired) grammar be danm

Yeahhh I'm going to stick with only Wights on the Fist,infront the cave,v6 and Thistle,Sam and Gilly,Hardome etc.

Not to draw us down the wight rabbit hole here...

You have to remember that as the Watch fled the Fist, they were being attacked, the wanderers off and stragglers. Then, when we get Sam's POV it is an Other who is fighting with the then stragglers. Sam, Grenn, Small Paul. So they have been tailed since the fight at the Fist by Others keeping to the flanks of the fleeing watch. If it was only wights trailing the Watch then what is an Other doing in the mix? Why has no one seen the aggressors? Wights aren't really subtle or camouflaged like some Others I can think of.

Sounds familiar to the Free Folk travelling south heh?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It's pretty clearly implied that the Others were there. You don't struggle to not think about things you've never seen before.

ETA: Not a double, but a triple negative in the second sentence. Is there a prize for that?

Keep it up and you may be up for an Early Cuyler award.

[redrose]

Here's the exact quote regarding the display of skulls:

This "display" was contained in a passage that wa littered with bones, which included the bones of birds and beast. It was not located in the cavern where Bloodraven sat on his Weirwood throne, but in a passage which descended to the cavern.

You almost get the impression that the passage was like a hall of trophies with the skulls being on display. We're not given the size of the niches so it's hard to tell if the niches would have been big enough to have housed the entire body that the skulls were once attatched to. Perhaps this is a parallel to the Stark tombs in their passage.

This display of skulls also calls to mind the tale of the Whispers from Nimble Dick:

Your making far to much sense for me of late FFR. I'm looking into the FM relevance of the KG at the TOJ and trying to figure out what orders Aerys gave Hightower before he left to fetch the errant Rhaeger. I like the trophy cabinet reference in the cave and also link it to Wolfmaids collecting songs. I see the Weirwoods as the knowledge trees a sort of wiki of westeros whereby once the blood of whatever creature makes it's way in through the root system it's gets added to the knowledge bank allowing the greenseers an insight into the minds eye of said creature. What I'm trying to differentiate is whether the greenseers are left in situ with the tree as the roots grow through them etc or whether once they die the skeleton is discarded on the floor or put in a niche on the wall. I have read that chapter a few times and still can't distinguish whether at the end of the paragraph where it says that the roots have grown through them all whether this signifies just the CoTF or all the skeletons. Let me know what you think please.

Also Bran and co are eating blood stew every day they are down on the cave and once again no clue as to where the blood has come from?

[wolfmaid7]

Not to draw us down the wight rabbit hole here...

You have to remember that as the Watch fled the Fist, they were being attacked, the wanderers off and stragglers. Then we we get Sam's POV it is an Other who is fighting with the then stragglers. Sam, Grenn, Small Paul. So they have been tailed since the fight at the Fist by Others keeping to the flanks of the fleeing watch. If it was only wights trailing the Watch then what is an Other doing in the mix? Why has no one seen the aggressors? Wights aren't really subtle or camouflaged like some Others I can think of.

Sounds familiar to the Free Folk travelling south heh?

Ser Puddles wasn't in the mix he came upon them days later. He could have been following the Wights himself and came upon Sam and co.He wasn't tailing them that was a coincidence he came upon them. We can't say ,well you could say but i can't say that because he showed up after that, obviously he was on the Fist and thus was master of ceremonies.That wouldn't even stand up in court...reasonable doubt.

It was the same thing with the free folk heading south,they saw nothing but when they lost outriders as Tourmond said he assumed Others/wws whatever blanketed term that arose out of this mess.

You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me.” He gazed up at the darkening sky and

said, “The crows may have helped us more than they know. I’d wondered why we’d suffered no

attacks. But there’s still a hundred leagues to go, and the cold is rising. Varamyr, send your

wolves sniffing after the wights, I won’t have them taking us unawares.

These people are making assumptions,understandably so,stories again that facts are dismissing

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Is it proper Heresy to suggest that the magic of the Others might be what enable the dragons to be born?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ser Puddles wasn't in the mix he came upon them days later. He could have been following the Wights himself and came upon Sam and co.He wasn't tailing them that was a coincidence he came upon them. We can't say ,well you could say but i can't say that because he showed up after that, obviously he was on the Fist and thus was master of ceremonies.That wouldn't even stand up in court...reasonable doubt.

It was the same thing with the free folk heading south,they saw nothing but when they lost outriders as Tourmond said he assumed Others/wws whatever blanketed term that arose out of this mess.

You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me. He gazed up at the darkening sky and

said, The crows may have helped us more than they know. Id wondered why wed suffered no

attacks. But theres still a hundred leagues to go, and the cold is rising. Varamyr, send your

wolves sniffing after the wights, I wont have them taking us unawares.

These people are making assumptions,understandably so,stories again that facts are dismissing

Then who was stealthily attacking the the Watch as they fled the Fist?

[Phillip Frye]

Also Bran and co are eating blood stew every day they are down on the cave and once again no clue as to where the blood has come from?

Jojen will be back any minute now. Pinky swear.

[Phillip Frye]

Ser Puddles wasn't in the mix he came upon them days later. He could have been following the Wights himself and came upon Sam and co.He wasn't tailing them that was a coincidence he came upon them. We can't say ,well you could say but i can't say that because he showed up after that, obviously he was on the Fist and thus was master of ceremonies.That wouldn't even stand up in court...reasonable doubt.

Yeah, total coincidence that he was following them, picking off the stragglers. Just out for a stroll in the woods and came across fleeing crows. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Phillip Frye]

Is it proper Heresy to suggest that the magic of the Others might be what enable the dragons to be born?

I think that the conventional heretical point of view (there is no official heresy, other than the fact that Martin is pulling the wool over the readers' eyes about what is happening with the Wall and points north) would be as follows:

Magic had largely ebbed from the world, but not completely. Many magical things were lost or less potent. When the magic began to return in general, the Others became stronger and raised the wights, and the magic capable of hatching a dragon egg became possible again.

[Phillip Frye]

Also Bran and co are eating blood stew every day they are down on the cave and once again no clue as to where the blood has come from?

We like you, Brandon Stark, so we are going to eat you last.

[Melifeather]

.

"Go, then! What a wonderful idea! It's the American Dream...!"

"Hi, I'm Crazy Eddie, I put babies on spikes. Do you want a rack of baby? We've got babies on racks!"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MA3k9qCJ-tI

.

Who IS this strange man?

I noticed that Skinchaning Sweetrobin has a new video series regarding the Tower of Joy, which we spent a great deal of time on last thread. I would recommend at least the beginning of the video, where he mocks all of the R+L=J fantasies that Jon and Daenerys will unite the realm into utter harmony.

Link please.

Jojen will be back any minute now. Pinky swear.

:lmao:

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah, total coincidence that he was following them, picking off the stragglers. Just out for a stroll in the woods and came across fleeing crows. Nothing to see here, move along.

You determined he was following them based on his proximity,that he was picking off stragglers based on them being stragglers.Hmm. You forget where they were,they are the ones out of place not him.This specific insignificant part is irrelevant to the arguement which is based on Sam's many quotes which are solid that ww ser puddle at that point was the first time he or Grenn ever seen an Other.Here's yet another quote to show when recounting what happened on the Fists Wights were the only thing they saw.

"No. I could read the books, but . . . a m-maester must be a healer and b-b-blood makes me faint." He held out a shaky hand for Jon to see. "I'm Sam the Scared, not Sam the Slayer."

"Scared? Of what? The chidings of old men? Sam, you saw the wights come swarming up the Fist, a tide of living dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes. You slew an Other."

[Phillip Frye]

Link please.

Provided upon request:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc&list=UUXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

[Phillip Frye]

You determined he was following them based on his proximity,that he was picking off stragglers based on them being stragglers.Hmm. You forget where they were,they are the ones out of place not him.This specific insignificant part is irrelevant to the arguement which is based on Sam's many quotes which are solid that ww ser puddle at that point was the first time he or Grenn ever seen an Other.Here's yet another quote to show when recounting what happened on the Fists Wights were the only thing they saw.

"No. I could read the books, but . . . a m-maester must be a healer and b-b-blood makes me faint." He held out a shaky hand for Jon to see. "I'm Sam the Scared, not Sam the Slayer."

"Scared? Of what? The chidings of old men? Sam, you saw the wights come swarming up the Fist, a tide of living dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes. You slew an Other."

I went back and read your quotes. The only one that could conceivably support your argument that Sam had not confronted the Others prior to Ser Puddles is the second one, which is his after-action conversation with Grenn about the pale thing in the woods.

You take that to mean that he didn't know how to describe an Other prior to his encounter with Ser Puddles. However, in the conversation with Grenn, they both acknowledge that what they encountered was an Other. I don't understand how calling Ser Puddles a pale thing in the woods after the fact when Sam knew what it was all along constitutes a failure to recognize an Other when he saw one.

Secondly, Sam saw Others in action at the Fist of First Men. However, he certainly didn't encounter them there like he did Ser Puddles. At the Fist, Sam ran. He ran like Hell. The mere fact that he saw wights tearing the heads off of people and Others doing things that he doesn't want to remember at all (presumably worse things than tearing people's heads off), doesn't mean that he encountered an Other there. In fact, he didn't want to encounter one at all.

Also, because you assert that the White Walkers were not picking off stragglers on the retreat from the Fist of First Men to Craster's Keep, please provide us with a list of those members of the Night's Watch who fell behind on the retreat besides Sam and Grenn and made it back alive to Craster's Keep.

[addicted to snow]

I think their are several subtle hints that indicate they are and to add there's no evidence that the wws are using them as canon fodder.We only have what people believe,but you nor i have yet to see wws leading wights "to attack humans".But lead them they can,i still think there's something in that Gendel story.Plus i really think this is cyclical and predates men.

How can they pre-date man when they look just like men?

I think the little cheese,a goat and blind fish once in a while can only do so much.The relationship is seen in nature as "Commensalism" one species benefits while the other is not helped or harmed.

Their back-dxoor i a sink-hole… they eat whatever falls into the sink-hole… This why Bran & company comment on the funny taste of their meat...

[wolfmaid7]

I went back and read your quotes. The only one that could conceivably support your argument that Sam had not confronted the Others prior to Ser Puddles is the second one, which is his after-action conversation with Grenn about the pale thing in the woods.

You take that to mean that he didn't know how to describe an Other prior to his encounter with Ser Puddles. However, in the conversation with Grenn, they both acknowledge that what they encountered was an Other. I don't understand how calling Ser Puddles a pale thing in the woods after the fact when Sam knew what it was all along constitutes a failure to recognize an Other when he saw one.

Secondly, Sam saw Others in action at the Fist of First Men. However, he certainly didn't encounter them there like he did Ser Puddles. At the Fist, Sam ran. He ran like Hell. The mere fact that he saw wights tearing the heads off of people and Others doing things that he doesn't want to remember at all (presumably worse things than tearing people's heads off), doesn't mean that he encountered an Other there. In fact, he didn't want to encounter one at all.

Also, because you assert that the White Walkers were not picking off stragglers on the retreat from the Fist of First Men to Craster's Keep, please provide us with a list of those members of the Night's Watch who fell behind on the retreat besides Sam and Grenn and made it back alive to Craster's Keep.

To the red bolded that's a big no that's not what i took that to mean.I said what i meant which was simply this when Sam and Co saw Ser Puddles on the Fist that was the first time they 'saw' and Other not on the Fist.

Your second point is not proof you are just repeating your belief.The point is he nor anyone made mention of seeing any "White walker" on the Fist,what they were doing,position in the attack etc. they only saw Wights and thought WWs were there.Even when speaking in conversation the only mention of what we know as a ww is the one Sam killed,nothing else.Not in Sam's letter to CB,his conversation with Jon,his conversatin with Grenn.The 'only' one they ever talk about is Ser Puddles.

To your last point 44 members made it back and even when recounting all the conversations we could possibly here about seeing a ww,the only thing that comes up is the ww sam and Grenn saw.That's it. For you to say the second quote is the only one among the 5 that is crystal clear blows my mind.

Then who was stealthily attacking the the Watch as they fled the Fist?

50 of them fled the Fist( According to Sam maybe more) and 44 made it back and this is Sam's account

"but some wandered off in the snow,a few wounded had bled to death.....and sometimes Sam heard shouts behind him from the rear guard,and once and awful scream.When he heard that he ran twenty yards or thirty ,as fast and as far as he could........They are behind us,they are still behind us,they are taking us one by one.

The conditions on the march back was the same as on the Fist ,a snow storm

"The snow swirled down from around him sometimes it fell from a white sky and sometimes from a black but that was all that remained of the day."

I dont know where you got the stealthy attack from,Sam said he couldn't see more than 3ft in front of him and in back he saw torches bobbing way in the back.It was a series of people getting lost,dying from injuries he wasn't too sure what the shouts were about and he heard ONE scream.

Another thing and follow my logic here if 44 made it back and there was one Walker who you guys are certained was following Sam and Co.

Then shouldn't the other 41 have ran into a ww as well,shouldn't the other 5 Walkers have been tracking them an atlease somebody else have reported one of them attacking them like Puddles riding up on Sam an co.

Seeing as they maybe we scatters as well shouldn't this have happened?

[Black Crow]

Yeah, the fact of the matter is that all the way back to Old Nan the walkers are described as leading armies of the slain and while she can be shown to be out on some of her interpretations she's backed up both by what Sam finds in the archives in Castle Black and by what the wildlings say. As we've discussed before the wights aren't going to be encouraged by brave banners streaming in the wind or Ser Puddles or one of his brothers leading them forward sword in hand, so his absence from the front rank of the attackers' inhuman wave attack on the Fist is not evidence that Craster's boys were nowhere near the place at the time.

[wolfmaid7]

How can they pre-date man when they look just like men?

Their back-dxoor i a sink-hole… they eat whatever falls into the sink-hole… This why Bran & company comment on the funny taste of their meat...

Umm why does the carvings on the weirwood trees look like men and they predate men?

ATS i can't believe you asked that,the wws are humanoid,that's all we know. If that Hescox painting is remotely close to what they look like.Do they look like men to you?

[Eira Seren]

Just to wander off topic for a moment, it seems that the BBC have produced a seven-episode TV version of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. No word I can find as to when it is going to air, although when the time comes it will appear in the States.

The gods alone know how they are going to cope with the footnotes.

:lol:

I think this reenactment of the "bolt" feast was done pre men before there were too many Wights for the WWs.It would have been a benefit for the COTF during those long winter's where hunting outside in that kind of cold might have been detrimental.

Imagine in a pre man time they wouldn't have had to deal

With possibly millions of Wights to herd.In this case I think the story of Gendel's children being always hungry may have merit.

You ever noticed that when it came to consuming the Walking dead it has only been the weird crows and the D irewolves that would eat that flesh.They benefit above all others when the dead walk, they can feast.

ETA : It was V6 in One eye that made the statement,"not men, not prey not these".

Wights as lean cuisines. . .