Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[UVA]

@UVA,

The rest of your points I understand and I don't have any fundamental disagreement.

But the bolded, I just don't get it. What do you mean by that, since you believe (rightly, IMO) that Cat did not have obligations towards Jon? To me this seems like a contradiction. What parental rights do you think should be granted to Cat? Can you be more specific about it?

I think a large part of the contempt for Cat (not necessarily in this thread) presupposes a notion that she should have treated him like a mother figure, or even what we think of as a "stepmother". The term "parental rights" needs to be very loosely applied here. I'm really speaking to the idea of parental-decision making and control in the Winterfell household irt Jon. And the fact that it's Ned who removes all conditions for this possibility for Cat, is an important consideration in terms of understanding her failing here.

But let me back up. I don't blame Ned for doing this. Given the grenade that his sister dropped in his lap, it makes sense that Ned would want complete control over Jon, keeping him close at Winterfell. Cutting his wife out of this, and refusing to say anything on the matter is both rational and merciful. The rub is that Cat has to accept this deceit, and she can't escape what she believes to be a profound affront to her. And yet too, Cat has to deal with the fact that it's Ned's decision alone to keep Jon close and raise him as one of his own.

It seems Cat had considerable decision-making over her own children (e.g, her insistence that they be raised in the tradition of the Seven) but she has no say about Jon even though he's always around her children. Given this, it's not unreasonable to think that she wanted some say, as Ned's wife and given how close Jon was in their lives. I agree with what you said up thread -- that Cat wouldn't want anything to do with Jon because his presence is too hurtful -- but what I'm stressing is that she was forced to deal with him, and the fact that she has no control over anything just compounds her misery, and hence her regrettable treatment of Jon.

I'm not a fan of the view that if only Ned explained things, Cat would treat Jon better, be more motherly towards him. I don't think that had she'd known the reality (and danger) of the Jon situation she'd fully accept him. I ultimately see her attitude towards Jon as a personal failing, where an innocent had to suffer.

[Mladen]

I am not sure that we can actually pinpoint exactly how would have Catelyn felt if she was told the truth. First, we all have to return to the intricate web of things Jon's existence as Ned's bastard hit for Catelyn. And certainly, if she would have been told that Jon is no longer Ned's bastard son, but nephew things would get changed. But, in what way?

Let we assume that the crux of Cat's animosity towards Jon is her love for Ned. If she had learnt that Jon was Lyanna's, then situation would get easier. I do believe that this was the lion's share, but alas it wasn't all. For the deep analysis of this, I now have to jump to Ned's thoughts during that ill-fated conversation with Cersei when he does acknowledge that Cat would have to choose between the safety of her own children and a child that could shaken entire Realm. If Jon would be discovered, then what would be the consequences for Cat's children? And even if we assume that Ned is capable to making Cat believe that Jon is not danger, the shadow would still linger on her heart. Catelyn is rather cautious and smart person and she would have had to estimate the risk of keeping such secret. Ned knew this. Ned knew that it's one thing that he hides the secret, it would be completely different for Catelyn. Jon isn't Catelyn's blood and she is not bound by the promise. All of this makes Catelyn in Ned's eyes (just as pretty much everyone else) unable to deal with such secret. That is why I am not so sure that we can exactly say that Catelyn would be in this or that way different towards Jon. Certainly, she would, but I am not sure in what way and to what extent.

That being said, I wholeheartedly believe that Ned loved and trusted Cat, but this one thing was the one thing he knew he can't share so easily...

[BearQueen87]

You make a compelling point. However, I can't pretend to understand how that would exactly: I trust you...but only sometimes... it doesn't seem an easy thing.

I would say it's a very difficult thing and it took a man like Ned Stark to do it. I think Ned carried a lot of that guilt with him be it over his supposed dishonor, lying to Cat, not being able to tell Jon who he really is, maybe feeling like he broke his promise to Lyanna. I think Ned trusts Cat with everything...but Jon is the exception that proves the rule. Cat sees this as a slight against her and a measure of how much Ned loved Jon's mother. But the horrible irony is that Ned did love Jon's mother, but not as a lover.

[BearQueen87]

I'm not a fan of the view that if only Ned explained things, Cat would treat Jon better, be more motherly towards him. I don't think that had she'd known the reality (and danger) of the Jon situation she'd fully accept him. I ultimately see her attitude towards Jon as a personal failing, where an innocent had to suffer.

I don't know that Cat would treat Jon more motherly, but there is a lot in between treating someone like your child and treating them with cold contempt. I don't treat other people's children like they were my own, but I also don't scorn them and try to send them from my side. There's a pretty big in-between. Simple acceptance for a start.

Now Cat, to be more positive here for a second, doesn't insist that Jon work in the stables or sleep outdoors or go nowhere near her children. Jon is raised in the castle, taught to use a sword, has good relationships with Robb, Arya and Bran. He is fed and clothed and educated. So she does get a lot of credit for that.

[David Selig]

I realise that readers had the advantage of hindsight. It's also expected for noble-born individuals of her period to have romantic ideas of other noble characters. But as far as Catelyn knows, Rhaegar--a crown prince, kidnapped and raped Lyanna repeatedly. Aerys--a mad king, burnt and killed her betrothed and would-be father-in-law. Does anyone else think it was reckless of her to simply dismiss any doubts Ned might have about Joffrey based solely on his status as a crown prince? I fault Ned as well since he had the last word.

Seems to me Ned wanted to say "Joffrey is 12", not express any doubts about his character (which he had no clue about). Later on he does nothing to break the engagement even after Robert told him how messed up Joff was.

I think that over the years Ned was waiting for Catelyn to find it in her heart to forgive him. This is supported by Bran's last chapter in Dance. I think he wanted to give that chance of coming to it on her own but like I posited in the last chapter, Catelyn likes to be presented with tangible things she can understand. He wanted her to love Jon on her own.

I really don't think so. A woman in Catelyn's situation coming to love a kid like Jon is simply unthinkable in Westeros. It just doesn't happen, period. Ned doesn't even pray for it, that's how unlikely it is.

Anyway, moving on from Jon Snow. Most interesting for me here is that Ned immediately decided to put Catelyn in charge and trusted her to teach Robb how to rule. In a strongly patriarchal culture this is something quite special. Really goes to show the confidence he had in her abilities.

[UVA]

I don't know that Cat would treat Jon more motherly, but there is a lot in between treating someone like your child and treating them with cold contempt. I don't treat other people's children like they were my own, but I also don't scorn them and try to send them from my side. There's a pretty big in-between. Simple acceptance for a start.

I don't disagree with this. Cat's lack of acceptance is objectively wrong, and is a great personal failing. But I think it's arguably forgivable when seen through the lens of Ned's actions, Cat's insecurities and feelings of powerlessness.

As to the portion in bold, I don't do this either. I would make Jon feel more welcome at Winterfell, and not give him icy stares. Then again, my husband wouldn't force me to live with the product of his infidelity without explanation or input from me, and if he did I have the option of divorcing him. What is unforgivable for me is if Cat had the option to leave Ned and didn't but still continued to treat Jon badly.

[Mladen]

As to the portion in bold, I don't do this either. I would make Jon feel more welcome at Winterfell, and not give him icy stares. Then again, my husband wouldn't force me to live with the product of his infidelity without explanation or input from me, and if he did I have the option of divorcing him. What is unforgivable for me is if Cat had the option to leave Ned and didn't but still continued to treat Jon badly.

This. And also, Mr. UVA sounds like a keeper :)

I don't know that Cat would treat Jon more motherly, but there is a lot in between treating someone like your child and treating them with cold contempt. I don't treat other people's children like they were my own, but I also don't scorn them and try to send them from my side. There's a pretty big in-between. Simple acceptance for a start.

Now Cat, to be more positive here for a second, doesn't insist that Jon work in the stables or sleep outdoors or go nowhere near her children. Jon is raised in the castle, taught to use a sword, has good relationships with Robb, Arya and Bran. He is fed and clothed and educated. So she does get a lot of credit for that.

I am sorry, but people are constantly exaggerating about Cat's hatred towards Jon. I mean, it is all nice and easy to talk about the hate until Jon much later in ASOS actually says us what is the extent of that hatred - icy stares.

It feels as this whole grey area is missed in your post. Catelyn didn't love him, and that is rather clear. Emotional investment here is rather strong and I can understand her not liking him. TBH, I feel like people is behaving that Catelyn is the only person in history of literature that had negative feelings towards a child. I mean, it's not that rare. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was very simple - I am not your mother and I don't want to be your mother. Is it fair to him? Most certainly not. But she didn't act upon that. She wasn't Lady Tremaine to him. He got all the privileges of the highborn child, and his behavior at the Wall wonderfully shows us how well raised he was. He isn't emotionally or psychologically damaged. Jon Snow is hurt, but a lot of stigma of his status comes from the fact that bastards are somewhat frowned upon. Even up there in the North where some readers think things are that different. Jon's feelings regarding his bastard status can't be attached to Catelyn no more than it can be attached to all his siblings. She didn't make him a bastard. And not to mention that his status was something she least have issues with.

[BearQueen87]

I am sorry, but people are constantly exaggerating about Cat's hatred towards Jon. I mean, it is all nice and easy to talk about the hate until Jon much later in ASOS actually say us what is the extent of that hatred - icy stares.

It feels as this whole grey area is missed in your post. Catelyn didn't love him, and that is rather clear. Emotional investment here is rather strong and I can understand her not liking him. TBH, I feel like people is behaving that Catelyn is the only person in history of literature that had negative feelings towards a child. I mean, it's not that rare. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was very simple - I am not your mother and I don't want to be your mother. Is it fair to him? Most certainly not. But she didn't act upon that. She wasn't Lady Tremaine to him. He got all the privileges of the highborn child, and his behavior at the Wall wonderfully shows us how well raised he was. He isn't emotionally or psychologically damaged. Jon Snow is hurt, but a lot of stigma of his status comes from the fact that bastards are somewhat frowned upon. Even up there in the North where some readers think things are that different. Jon's feelings regarding his bastard status can't be attached to Catelyn no more than it can be attached to all his siblings. She didn't make him a bastard. And not to mention that his status was something she least have issues with.

I never once used the word hate; I said contempt, or-- if you want me to choose a different word--indifference, scorn, disdain, maybe even offensive to her,. And I don't think Cat hates him. She's hurt by Ned bringing the baby back and refusing to talk about the mother and she's resentful that Jon grew up alongside her children and even looks more like a northern lad than her own children. A page or two back, I even said that Cat is decidedly more complex than simply hating Jon and that I had quite a bit of sympathy for her. And in the post you quoted of mine, I even pointed out that Jon was educated and fed and clothed and taught to use a sword. She didn't insist that Ned put him to work in Winterfell; Jon got to grow up in a more privileged role than others, but not as much as some. I am not missing the grey.

[Mladen]

I never once used the word hate; I said contempt, or-- if you want me to choose a different word--indifference, scorn, disdain, maybe even offensive to her,. And I don't think Cat hates him. She's hurt by Ned bringing the baby back and refusing to talk about the mother and she's resentful that Jon grew up alongside her children and even looks more like a northern lad than her own children. A page or two back, I even said that Cat is decidedly more complex than simply hating Jon and that I had quite a bit of sympathy for her. And in the post you quoted of mine, I even pointed out that Jon was educated and fed and clothed and taught to use a sword. She didn't insist that Ned put him to work in Winterfell; Jon got to grow up in a more privileged role than others, but not as much as some. I am not missing the grey.

I am sorry, but using 10 different synonyms for the word hatred doesn't change what you wanted to say, regardless of complexity of the emotion's origin. Your stance is very clear - Catelyn should have accepted Jon. Well, I think you miss the obvious part - Catelyn did accept Jon, He is there, living under the roof of the castle she is Lady of, being treated as her own legitimate children, having all the privileges. Jon was part of that home and his memories of Winterfell actually shows us what time he had there. So, yeah, you are missing the grey.

Furthermore, it seems that we have been nurturing double standards for quite some time. I mean, it is quite normal for man not to like a child, but we all expect of woman to be loving, caring, selfless creature. With risk of sounding like I am explaining that the Earth is round, well, woman has right to reject the child if she wants, or feels that way. And we should not behave like the said woman committed genocide. As UVA said, Catelyn couldn't have had accepted Jon as her own for the sole reason that so many things were not only unknown to her, but actually demanded in fashion where she didn't have much choice.

[BearQueen87]

I am sorry, but using 10 different synonyms for the word hatred doesn't change what you wanted to say, regardless of complexity of the emotion's origin. Your stance is very clear - Catelyn should have accepted Jon. Well, I think you miss the obvious part - Catelyn did accept Jon, He is there, living under the roof of the castle she is Lady of, being treated as her own legitimate children, having all the privileges. Jon was part of that home and his memories of Winterfell actually shows us what time he had there. So, yeah, you are missing the grey.

Cat does not accept Jon fully. If she did, she would not have tried to send Jon away over the years, by her own admission in this very chapter. Jon is accepted into WF (again, something I pointed out) but how much of that is due to Ned's insistence that "Jon is my blood" and Cat having no other options? She accepts that Jon is there and she can do nothing about it, but that's not the same as accepting him. Different levels and types of acceptance but not accepting =/= hating. Do I resent her for this or think that Cat is evil or morally bankrupt? Good heavens, no. And I don't think she hates Jon, like I already said. I'm sorry you feel my word choice is poor so I'll try again. She does not want Jon there, and it's understandable because Cat is in the dark on a lot of these matters, and for that I have sympathy for her. But she is resentful of him and even finds it hard to forgiven Ned for all of this, even though she deeply loves Ned.

Furthermore, it seems that we have been nurturing double standards for quite some time. I mean, it is quite normal for man not to like a child, but we all expect of woman to be loving, caring, selfless creature. With risk of sounding like I am explaining that the Earth is round, well, woman has right to reject the child if she wants, or feels that way. And we should not behave like the said woman committed genocide. As UVA said, Catelyn couldn't have had accepted Jon as her own for the sole reason that so many things were not only unknown to her, but actually demanded in fashion where she didn't have much choice.

Making me out to sound like I think Cat committed genocide because of how I think she acted toward Jon is first and foremost offensive and second a ludicrous stretch of anything I've said so far over the past few pages. Do I need to say it again: I have a ton of sympathy for Cat in this situation because she is not--and cannot--be in the know, but I also feel a lot for Jon. UVA made a very good point that Cat has few options here (she can't leave for instance) but the options available to her (asking Ned over the years to send Jon away for example and begrudgingly accepting Jon at her home) she did do and try.

[Mladen]

Cat does not accept Jon fully. If she did, she would not have tried to send Jon away over the years, by her own admission in this very chapter. Jon is accepted into WF (again, something I pointed out) but how much of that is due to Ned's insistence that "Jon is my blood" and Cat having no other options? She accepts that Jon is there and she can do nothing about it, but that's not the same as accepting him. Different levels and types of acceptance but not accepting =/= hating. Do I resent her for this or think that Cat is evil or morally bankrupt? Good heavens, no. And I don't think she hates Jon, like I already said. I'm sorry you feel my word choice is poor so I'll try again. She does not want Jon there, and it's understandable because Cat is in the dark on a lot of these matters, and for that I have sympathy for her. But she is resentful of him and even finds it hard to forgiven Ned for all of this, even though she deeply loves Ned.

OK, no one said that Catelyn accepted Jon. I know I have phrased it that way but I thought that I made it very clear that Catelyn accepted the situation at hand, and not accepting Jon as her son. Your position seems that Catelyn's moral ground is that Jon wasn't sleeping in stables. Which is a bit underestimating how Jon was treated in Winterfell. He wasn't shunned by anyone, he wasn't being ill treated, he was basically treated the very same as the heir of the biggest Kingdom in the Realm. So, Jon wasn't on just a ladder higher from stable boy, he was significantly higher.

Making me out to sound like I think Cat committed genocide because of how I think she acted toward Jon is first and foremost offensive and second a ludicrous stretch of anything I've said so far over the past few pages/

Wrong reread thread for this type of arguments. I am not even going to point out that what you have said regarding my post is completely incorrect, for anyone can read and see it for themselves.

[BearQueen87]

OK, no one said that Catelyn accepted Jon. I know I have phrased it that way but I thought that I made it very clear that Catelyn accepted the situation at hand, and not accepting Jon as her son. Your position seems that Catelyn's moral ground is that Jon wasn't sleeping in stables. Which is a bit underestimating how Jon was treated in Winterfell. He wasn't shunned by anyone, he wasn't being ill treated, he was basically treated the very same as the heir of the biggest Kingdom in the Realm. So, Jon wasn't on just a ladder higher from stable boy, he was significantly higher.

My position with the "stable situation" (which I was using as an example) is this: Cat could have insisted to Ned that if Jon had to be around, that he have no contact with her children or that he be put to work as a hand. But she didn't. And that's to her credit. A lot of credit, in fact. It shows the kind of strong, good hearted woman she is.

Wrong reread thread for this type of arguments . I am not even going to pointing out that what you have said regarding my post is completely incorrect, for anyone can read and see it for themselves.

Then I clearly misread you and for that I apologize.

I also apologize if it's come across like I'm a Cat-hater or something to that extent. It's not the case. If it appears that I derailed the re-read with hatred toward a character, then sorry. Sincerely. Maybe until the next chapter or something that isn't Jon-Cat I'll just stay quiet if it's coming across as anti-Cat.

[Mladen]

My position with the "stable situation" (which I was using as an example) is this: Cat could have insisted to Ned that if Jon had to be around, that he have no contact with her children or that he be put to work as a hand. But she didn't. And that's to her credit. A lot of credit, in fact. It shows the kind of strong, good hearted woman she is.

I am sorry, but this is also another backhand compliment. It is normal to expect that Catelyn didn't turn her children against Jon or built the Chinese Wall between him and her own children. If we are going to speak about credit Cat deserves regarding Jon, it has to be in raising her children with almost no transference of her own dislike towards him, as all 5 of her children are very much attached to Jon. Plus, she wasn't Wicked Stepmother to him. As I said before this isn't "stepmother" scenario where Jon is being treated as poor little unwanted orphan. And we shouldn't behave as if Cat should be complimented for being "dryer than ocean" basically.

Then I clearly misread you and for that I apologize.

Thank you... No problem...

Maybe until the next chapter or something that isn't Jon-Cat I'll just stay quiet if it's coming across as anti-Cat.

Oh, if I am not mistaken, the next intermediary chapter will be totally about this :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

A general note:

Substantial parts of Catelyn's arc generate controversy. It is known :)

However, this re-read does not want to shy away from discussing them and, personally, I do not want to discourage critical or even unfavorable interpretations of the text, as long as it contributes to an in-depth and productive discussion. So far everyone in this thread has offered insightful points of view that I wouldn't want to miss. Different opinions are fine and (speaking for my self) wellcome, provided that we don't make a disagreement personal.

I want to thank everyone for making this thread a great place for discussion. Let's keep it that way :grouphug:

---------

@UVA

Thanks for elaborating. If I understand your point correctly, you are in fact raising the issue of authority dynamics within the family in a patriarchal society.

As I see it, the term that you use, "usurping parental rights" may be a source of misunderstanding because, while it would be correct for a more contemporary setting, it is not really applicable IMO in terms of ASOIAF world building.

It is true that Catelyn has a say in the raising of her own children but -save for the usual maternal duties- this is not because that's what custom and principle dictates. It's rather a result of Ned actually appreciating her opinion and input in such (and other) matters. But as we witness in this very chapter Ned has the final word in all decisions, including the children - all of them.

Ned, despite being open to listen to Cat and take her counsel seriously, he is a pater familias as much as any head of family in their world.

Even in the supposedly more equal Dorne, Mellario (who is the mother but not the rulling lady of the House) did not have control over crusial desisions for her children and when she went away she had to leave then behind... And in real world, it's not long ago that family law changed to reflect the principle of equality and terms such as "paternal authority" were replaced by "parental care".

Ned and Catelyn are both products of their world and their relationship, as good as it is, will necessarily reflect the constraints that are forced on the woman. I believe that Catelyn's arc raises a lot of issues in this aspect, moreso than Cersei's IMO because they touch more on the average common experience ie the way it affects everyday life of basically decent people.

"She had pledged to obey" is a very characteristic phrase to expose the core of wife / husband relationship in terms of authority in ASOIAF (not only in ASOIAF; this term still survives in the words of some religious marital vows...)

To come back to the Cat/Ned/Jon problem, I believe that you are of course right in that the wife should have equal control in all arrangements regarding their common houshold, but the sad reality is, neither law or custom grant her such rights... Ned could have said "Jon stays in Winterfell, end of discussion" and Catelyn could do nothing about it if that was the case, like she had to swallow Ned's decision to keep Jon with them all those years without question. It's the fact that Ned acknowledges that such an arrangement would create a severely unfunctional and unhealthy situation the determining reason, IMO, that Catelyn's refusal here plays a decisive role.

[LordStoneheart]

I haven't had full access to the internet in the past few days, but I've been reading through. Good comments so far. You all make me feel so inadequate. :)

I'd just like to say that the next post might take us through some of the harshest waters in this particular issue, but if we abide by the rules outlined I think we can navigate with some good critical discussion that is also productive.

[BastardlyRock]

I'd just like to say that the next post might take us through some of the harshest waters in this particular issue, but if we abide by the rules outlined I think we can navigate with some good critical discussion that is also productive.

Have no fear, we have great open minded-minded folk with versatile yet respectful and respectable opinions, I'm excited for the future. :D

[David Selig]

I haven't had full access to the internet in the past few days, but I've been reading through. Good comments so far. You all make me feel so inadequate. :)

I'd just like to say that the next post might take us through some of the harshest waters in this particular issue, but if we abide by the rules outlined I think we can navigate with some good critical discussion that is also productive.

I hope some new views will be posted on this, I've read and debated the usual approaches to this scene so many times I can recite the typical arguments and responses of both sides in my sleep. ;)

BTW, will the Catelyn related passages in Arya first chapter and Bran's second chapter be analyzed here?

[LordStoneheart]

I hope some new views will be posted on this, I've read and debated the usual approaches to this scene so many times I can recite the typical arguments and responses of both sides in my sleep. ;)

BTW, will the Catelyn related passages in Arya first chapter and Bran's second chapter be analyzed here?

Hadn't thought about it but I think I just may do that. Thanks

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I've never judged Cat harshly for her attitude toward Jon because -

1 - It's perfectly understandable, and

2 - It's exactly what Ned wanted (or at least needed.) Cat's cold treatment of Jon is the best way to protect Jon's life.

Ned met Cat for the first time on the day they were wed. After conceiving Robb on their wedding night, Ned rides back to the war the next day. He doesn't know much about Cat at all. After Lyanna's death, Ned has to come up with a plan to keep Jon safe, in order to fulfill his oath to Lyanna. He has no idea if Cat is a good enough mummer to pull off a deception that would have to last for years. That would take skills worthy of Varys. By not telling her, he makes sure her performance will be convincing.

Here's the quote from Bran's aDwD chapter when he sees Ned in the godswood: (Jumping a head just a little bit, but hey, it's relevant, and it's a flashback.)

. . . let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive . . ."

Ned doesn't pray for Cat to accept Jon. That would destroy the deception. People would be asking all kinds of questions if proud Catelyn Tully Stark treated Ned's bastard as well as her own children.

When Cat insists that Jon must leave Winterfell once Ned is gone, Ned is simply facing the logical results of his own plan. He may protest at the time, but in the end he knows Cat isn't to blame.

ETA If I have to blame someone, I'll blame Robert for his irrational hatred of all Targs, including children.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

Catelyn's alleged bad treatment of Jon has always been highly overrated, and I would argue, since Jon is quite a sensitive kid, been overrated by Jon himself who in turn transmitted -since his first chapter- his feelings to most readers. IIRC, Catelyn is actually the only person that shows ( Apart perhaps from Theon I guess) any kind of lack of liking for Jon. He is not shunned by anyone -From Winterfell I mean- and, that's not often highlighted, can order Mikken, Winterfell's Smith to create Needle, completely unbeknownst to anyone without Mikken himself questioning his motives and without needing the approval of Ned. That's in itself a big indication of how well accepted he is and the great liberty he enjoys within the walls of Winterfell -Outside is obviously another story-.

If we consider ASOIAF to work like Medieval times, then Ned keeping a bastard son around even though he had an heir already would not be out of the norm considering the possibility of death in infancy and lack of other heirs, but then with three male heirs, so two "spares" as they could be called, Ned's succession was relatively safe. Ned keeping Jon around even after the birth of Bran and Rickon, two perfectly healthy boys is obviously even harder to swallow for Catelyn who's done her duty as wife by providing three male heirs and still hopes to conceive another in her very first chapter .

Catelyn's behaviour towards Jon has nothing to do with Jon himself personally (as in, his personnality, attitude etc) but just how he's been introduced to her : Here is your husband's bastard son. Catelyn haters blame her for not having gotten over her first impression of Jon, yet those readers themselves most of the time have never gotten over their first impression of Catelyn :frown5:. That this is one of the main reasons why, according to GRRM, Catelyn is the most hated character (Along with Sansa, for other reasons) is still beyond me. Hopefully this thread, as the Pawn to Player threads did with Sansa, will highlight what an amazing character Catelyn is :cool4: .