UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That's your opinion that being the son of R+L makes him the Song of Ice and Fire, I don't believe in that theory. GRRM has said many times that his story is not just about one person, which pretty much tells me that he didn't name his series after one person. But that's my opinion. Of course the book is not just about one person. That does not mean that one of the many meanings of the title would not be a reference to the "hidden" prince in the story. If Jon is the son of R+L, he has a father that represents fire and a mother who is from a part of the country that represents ice. How these facts could just be a coincidence and not part of GRRM's meaning in the title is beyond my understanding. That would be incredible sloppy of GRRM to create a character who would so obviously fit as one of the meanings of the title, but then claim that no, he had no such intention at all--it was all a big coincidence on his part and he did not mean for anyone to take it that way. GRRM is too good a writer to have made that mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Yea, I guess for some reason I hadn't thought about Martin keeping abreast of and critiquing the fan theories, because of his policy about reading the boards directly. But I realized that was probably wrong when I looked at the article, and it did seem like he's aware of ones that would have emerged in more recent years. So yea, that's the technical workaround-- meeting with fans, being friends with the Mods, etc. I got the impression he was referring to post-aCoK theories too. Not from reading the boards or theories directly but from fan interactions. lol I read an interview recently were he was discussing some of the crazy fan theories he's received over email. and kinda like you mentioned he meets with fans all the time for book signing and such. I'm sure more than a few of them have pass a theory or two by him. Which makes what he's saying about in being past ACOK that only a few people figuring out the mystery to be about something probably few of us have discussed in all that time. How many people do you think have passed the R+L=J theory by him in the last 20 odd years. I imagine a lot, he's not talking about that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Of course the book is not just about one person. That does not mean that one of the many meanings of the title would not be a reference to the "hidden" prince in the story. If Jon is the son of R+L, he has a father that represents fire and a mother who is from a part of the country that represents ice. How these facts could just be a coincidence and not part of GRRM's meaning in the title is beyond my understanding. That would be incredible sloppy of GRRM to create a character who would so obviously fit as one of the meanings of the title, but then claim that no, he had no such intention at all--it was all a big coincidence on his part and he did not mean for anyone to take it that way. GRRM is too good a writer to have made that mistake. and that's your opinion, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 and that's your opinion, right? Well, yes it is my opinion. I am asking you how you explain away my opinion. I am asking you why you think GRRM would be so sloppy. I am asking you why GRRM would create a character that seems to fit the personification of the title so perfectly but not intend the reader to conclude that the title was a reference, in part, to that character. I am trying to have a discussion, not just put forth an opinion. I am trying to put forth arguments for you to respond to so that we can examine which "opinion" is more supported by the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I read an interview recently were he was discussing some of the crazy fan theories he's received over email. and kinda like you mentioned he meets with fans all the time for book signing and such. I'm sure more than a few of them have pass a theory or two by him. Which makes what he's saying about in being past ACOK that only a few people figuring out the mystery to be about something probably few of us have discussed in all that time. How many people do you think have passed the R+L=J theory by him in the last 20 odd years. I imagine a lot, he's not talking about that theory. Yea, I definitely got the impression he was referring to more obscure and subtle theories that didn't have such mass followings (and that 4 years comment made me think he might be including theories that have been more recent). Something like MaidandWarrior's H+A = M+J was what I was thinking-- of that ilk of theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I guess we just agree to disagree. GRRM used the identity of Jon's mother as the "test" of D&D to see whether they were reading carefully enough and whether they were really following GRRM's clues enough to produce the HBO show. If GRRM thought it was obvious, it would not be much of a test. So even if it is obvious, I don't think GRRM considers it obvious, and certainly not in 1999. People who read fantasy and mystery books and are good at figuring them out may be people for whom the clues are obvious and not subtle. For the rest of the world--not so much. And more to the point, I think in GRRM's view, he would think the clues to R+L=J were subtle and not obvious. Yeah, if they had read the first book thoroughly, and not just skimmed through it, they would have picked up that R+L seemed obvious, because it is totally obvious from the first quarter of GoT... that that is GRRM wanted us to believe. And we don't know what D&D answered ;) And since you bring up D&D... they certainly haven't woven any "Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father" clues into the show. At all. They've thrown blue roses all over Sansa's wardrobe, and had Daario present one as a fever cure to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Can someone who was actually there tell us exactly what Grrm said. I think it's possible grrm was talking about a big mystery and the telegraph reporter assumed he meant the ending. Calling BS until an attendee clarifies. One thing ive noticed from these reports is that there's almost always a degree of wrong in them. Also please don't QUOTE george "have correctly predicted the ending" when it's not a quote from him. this is how information gets distorted. Looking at Grrm's actually quotes.... "But I can't change the plans. That's one of the reasons I used to read the early fan boards back in the 90s but stopped. One, I didn't have the time, but two is this very issue. "So many readers were reading the books with so much attention that they were throwing up some theories and while some of those theories were amusing bulls--- and creative, some of the theories are right. "At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I'd planted in the books and came to the right solution. He never said he was talking about the ending. This could be an assumption the reporter made, who might never have read the books. It might just be rlj he's talking about. Good points about getting clarity on the entire event, but I also wanted to say: I love that bolded phrase, a degree of wrong, I'm making note and remembering it. I'm sure this is one place that such a phrase may just come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Well, yes it is my opinion. I am asking you how you explain away my opinion. I am asking you why you think GRRM would be so sloppy. I am asking you why GRRM would create a character that seems to fit the personification of the title so perfectly but not intend the reader to conclude that the title was a reference, in part, to that character. I am trying to have a discussion, not just put forth an opinion. I am trying to put forth arguments for you to respond to so that we can examine which "opinion" is more supported by the evidence. There are a lot of supposition here which make you jump to conclusions. Jon as a person being the song of ice and fire doesn't fit perfectly as you suggest. In fact he's pretty much be ice up to this point. There is also the matter of reader expectations, you seem to expect this story to unfold in a manner that you can imagine doesn't really mean that it's the same way GRRM imagines. To me Jon doesn't fit the song of ice and fire, to me Jon and Dany fit that much better. How you see the story is not how everyone sees the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 And we don't know what D&D answered ;) We know they got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 There are a lot of supposition here which make you jump to conclusions. Jon as a person being the song of ice and fire doesn't fit perfectly as you suggest. In fact he's pretty much be ice up to this point. There is also the matter of reader expectations, you seem to expect this story to unfold in a manner that you can imagine doesn't really mean that it's the same way GRRM imagines. To me Jon doesn't fit the song of ice and fire, to me Jon and Dany fit that much better. How you see the story is not how everyone sees the story. If Jon is not R+L, you are correct. But the meaning of the title won't be obvious until the end. If Jon is revealed as R+L, then he won't just be ice anymore. If he is not R+L, then I am totally wrong. But assuming R+L=J, then I cannot see how Jon is not A Song of Ice and Fire, personified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 He says it is things vaguely foreshadowed as far a the end. Not for end of the whole story arc, but one would be Jamie killing Cersei (Volanquar) Another is probably Arya's body is found frozen, with a needle in her hand, but will live on in Nym. As said by Jon. I'm one to parallel the Night King's story with Jon, Val is Jon's Queen. GRRM has said Jon will get darker. Howland Reed is the HS with his Faith Militant of Northerners. It is the only way to get the Andals Southernors into the end battle with the Others Bran wargs one of the dragons during the Great Battle. Bottom line it is GRRM's way of messing with us. Martin said Jon would get darker in ADWD. He did, going so far to threaten Gilly that he would burn her baby if she didn't take Mance's. He never said that Jon would get darker after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 We know they got it right. Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Yea, I definitely got the impression he was referring to more obscure and subtle theories that didn't have such mass followings (and that 4 years comment made me think he might be including theories that have been more recent). Something like MaidandWarrior's H+A = M+J was what I was thinking-- of that ilk of theory. That's a good theory and although it might not be true, it's well thought out and would surprise a lot of people, and might also have implications well beyond that if true. Like I said, he's not talking about theories that show only viewers have figure out, R+L=J is big very well known theory. You know thinking about it it can also be something about what the Other are. There have been a lot of theories but nothing really concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Morgan Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 GRRM also said in another interview in 2011 that his wife Parris sometimes visited forums and told him about important theories. Moreover, fans send letters to GRRM with their theories and ask questions. Of course he knows a lot about fan's guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If Jon is not R+L, you are correct. But the meaning of the title won't be obvious until the end. If Jon is revealed as R+L, then he won't just be ice anymore. If he is not R+L, then I am totally wrong. But assuming R+L=J, then I cannot see how Jon is not A Song of Ice and Fire, personified. No, not really. That's the thing Jon's story is about who he is as a person despite who is parents were. Being the son of these two people doesn't make him the SOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Morgan Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If Jon is not R+L, you are correct. But the meaning of the title won't be obvious until the end. If Jon is revealed as R+L, then he won't just be ice anymore. If he is not R+L, then I am totally wrong. But assuming R+L=J, then I cannot see how Jon is not A Song of Ice and Fire, personified.How person can be a song??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Not really. LOL, I would say, all we know for sure is that they, too, probably know how to google and find information and speculation on a popular series of books. I've always felt that any ASOIAF quiz should include something beyond......who's ur Daddy or Momma? Honestly, the first book makes it pretty plain there are big secrets with A, Jon Snow's parentage and B, promises between Ned and Lyanna. Now, I have to confess.........I didn't put it all together that it was the same secret, but I binge read the series, then stopped to think about things and engage my own googling skills to look for message boards and such, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 We know they got it right. Yeah I wouldn't put too much stock on D&D getting something right to mean that it's super duper hard to figure out. I mean after watching 4 season if those two figured it out a lot of people figured it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 How person can be a song??? A song in many stories is consider a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That's a good theory and although it might not be true, it's well thought out and would surprise a lot of people, and might also have implications well beyond that if true. Like I said, he's not talking about theories that show only viewers have figure out, R+L=J is big very well known theory. You know thinking about it it can also be something about what the Other are. There have been a lot of theories but nothing really concrete. Yea, that would be another guess of mine. That's why I became a bit dejected when I read this particular thing just now. Ice Boltons and the human source of the Others are the two theories I'd say I'm super invested in, both of which kind of fall in that sort of subtle, left field area without consensus I thought Martin was referring to that might have been categorized as "amusing bullshit but creative" lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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