Breaking up of the seven kingdoms

[Game Of Thrones]

Language isn't everything, however. Norwegian and Danish are so similar that one can understand the other without any further study.

Language does create a lot of nationalism though.

[David Selig]

Thing is apart from Dorne and the Iron Islands there's barely any nationalistic feeling anywhere in Westeros. For the average Northman there's no difference whatsoever if the North is an independent kingdom or not. It's not like they are oppressed by the central authority or that their lives have changed for the worse due to the Targs. North's independence proclamation was based on the whim of a handful of dumbass nobles and backfired spectacularly.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I should also mention that one thing that always set Finland apart from both Sweden and Russia was language: it is completely alien to both the Germanic and Slavic language groups. Language has always been a way of differentiating people.

(Westeros though has no such language barriers).

That is a major weakness of Martin's worldbuilding. A medieval continent the size of Westeros speaking one language is not realistic. Especially the North speaking the Common Tongue.

I understand he did it just to simplify the writing process, but it is a glaring worldbuilding error, in my view. Heck, even within the North, someone living in the Barrowlands should speak an entirely different dialect from someone living in the Karstark lands, for that matter.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I should also mention that one thing that always set Finland apart from both Sweden and Russia was language: it is completely alien to both the Germanic and Slavic language groups. Language has always been a way of differentiating people.

(Westeros though has no such language barriers).

Swedish was still the most important language there though, especially in the cities and among the higher society. It's still a mandatory language to learn in school there, too.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

That is a major weakness of Martin's worldbuilding. A medieval continent the size of Westeros speaking one language is not realistic. Especially the North speaking the Common Tongue.

I understand he did it just to simplify the writing process, but it is a glaring worldbuilding error, in my view. Heck, even within the North, someone living in the Barrowlands should speak an entirely different dialect from someone living in the Karstark lands, for that matter.

Yes, it's pretty unrealistic. They don't even seem to speak distinctly different dialects across Westeros at large, nevermind in individual kingdoms. Because Arya can claim that she is a Riverlander or from King's Landing without having people questioning the way she talks.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yes, it's pretty unrealistic. They don't even seem to speak distinctly different dialects across Westeros at large, nevermind in individual kingdoms. Because Arya can claim that she is a Riverlander or from King's Landing without having people questioning the way she talks.

I've never been to Germany, but friends of mine who have lived there state that people in the South of Germany speak a dialect so different from the North that it is almost a different language.

And this is today. Imagine how different the dialects would have been before the era of mass communication.

And to put that into context the entire Germany is about the size of the Barrowlands. So someone living in the Neck, who never travels more than 30 miles from his home, would most certainly speak a totally different dialect to someone living in Barrowton or White Harbor or the Dreadfort.

And someone living in the North should not be able to understand the language of someone from the Reach or Dorne at all.

[Game Of Thrones]

@FNR

You mean Low German (in German I think it's called Plattsdeutsch). Tell your friends that Low German is a different language like Scots, not a dialect of German.

And yes, GRRM's linguistics is absolutely impossible from a logical point of view, but so are dragons and wights. ;)

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I've never been to Germany, but friends of mine who have lived there state that people in the South of Germany speak a dialect so different from the North that it is almost a different language.

And this is today. Imagine how different the dialects would have been before the era of mass communication.

And to put that into context the entire Germany is about the size of the Barrowlands. So someone living in the Neck, who never travels more than 30 miles from his home, would most certainly speak a totally different dialect to someone living in Barrowton or White Harbor or the Dreadfort.

And someone living in the North should not be able to understand the language of someone from the Reach or Dorne at all.

Yeah, and I would say that is fairly common across Europe too. Having a number of dialects that are different enough from the "standard" languages that they are hard to understand. In countries like Spain, France, Italy and so on there are also a number of large regional languages, where Basque in particular is completely incomprehensible to other speakers since it isn't even Indo-European.

So yes I agree. It is definitely a major flaw in the world building.

[Free Northman Reborn]

@FNR

You mean Low German (in German I think it's called Plattsdeutsch). Tell your friends that Low German is a different language like Scots, not a dialect of German.

And yes, GRRM's linguistics is absolutely impossible from a logical point of view, but so are dragons and wights. ;)

Old argument and easily countered.

Dragons and wights are explained by magic. Linguistics on the other hand, are not.

[Game Of Thrones]

Old argument and easily countered.

Then do so. I'm with ISO, problematic as it is, on all matters of languages/dialects.

Yep, a language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German

German offices in Schleswig-Holstein are obliged to accept and handle applications in Low German on the same footing as Standard High German applications.[16] The Bundesgerichtshof ruled in a case that this was even to be done at the patent office in Munich, in a nonLow German region, when the applicant then had to pay the charge for a translator,[17] because applications in Low German are considered "nicht in deutscher Sprache abgefasst" (not written in the German language).

Low German has been recognised by the Netherlands and by Germany (since 1999) as a regional language according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Within the official terminology defined in the charter, this status would not be available to a dialect of an official language (as per article 1 (a)), and hence not to Low German in Germany if it were considered a dialect of German.

Old Saxon and Middle Low German [ancestors of Low German] are generally considered separate languages in their own rights.

As said, these arguments [that Low German is not a language] are not linguistic but rather socio-political and build mainly around the fact that Low German has no official standard form or use in sophisticated media.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Then do so. I'm with ISO, problematic as it is, on all matters of languages/dialects.

Yep, a language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German

German offices in Schleswig-Holstein are obliged to accept and handle applications in Low German on the same footing as Standard High German applications.[16] The Bundesgerichtshof ruled in a case that this was even to be done at the patent office in Munich, in a nonLow German region, when the applicant then had to pay the charge for a translator,[17] because applications in Low German are considered "nicht in deutscher Sprache abgefasst" (not written in the German language).

Low German has been recognised by the Netherlands and by Germany (since 1999) as a regional language according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Within the official terminology defined in the charter, this status would not be available to a dialect of an official language (as per article 1 (a)), and hence not to Low German in Germany if it were considered a dialect of German.

Old Saxon and Middle Low German [ancestors of Low German] are generally considered separate languages in their own rights.

As said, these arguments [that Low German is not a language] are not linguistic but rather socio-political and build mainly around the fact that Low German has no official standard form or use in sophisticated media.

Not sure what that long quote has to do with the fact that magic does not explain why everyone in Westeros speaks the same language.

[Game Of Thrones]

Not sure what that long quote has to do with the fact that magic does not explain why everyone in Westeros speaks the same language.

Oh sorry. I thought your 'easily countered' was about Low German not being a language which is a subject I'm a bit touchy about, along with Scots.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I've never been to Germany, but friends of mine who have lived there state that people in the South of Germany speak a dialect so different from the North that it is almost a different language.

Pff, I grew up in a small village in southern Germany and couldn't understand the old coots unless they cut the dialect back. Because my family wasn't born and raised there since forever. Despite living there age one to fourteen.

[Ingelheim]

Yeah, and I would say that is fairly common across Europe too. Having a number of dialects that are different enough from the "standard" languages that they are hard to understand. In countries like Spain, France, Italy and so on there are also a number of large regional languages, where Basque in particular is completely incomprehensible to other speakers since it isn't even Indo-European.

So yes I agree. It is definitely a major flaw in the world building.

My grandfather is Basque and Euskera (the Basque name for the Basque language) is crazy. Many experts say it's quite similar to the language the ancient Northern Iberians spoke during the Roman Empire.

[Colonel Green]

Because Arya can claim that she is a Riverlander or from King's Landing without having people questioning the way she talks.

You've also got Sansa, a Northerner who is currently pretending to be the illegitimate daughter of a Valeman and a Braavosi gentlewoman who was raised at a convent in Braavos.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You've also got Sansa, a Northerner who is currently pretending to be the illegitimate daughter of a Valeman and a Braavosi gentlewoman who was raised at a convent in Braavos.

Convent in the Vale actually. Braavos got none, just the Sept-beyond-the-Sea.

[Arakan]

I've never been to Germany, but friends of mine who have lived there state that people in the South of Germany speak a dialect so different from the North that it is almost a different language.

And this is today. Imagine how different the dialects would have been before the era of mass communication.

And to put that into context the entire Germany is about the size of the Barrowlands. So someone living in the Neck, who never travels more than 30 miles from his home, would most certainly speak a totally different dialect to someone living in Barrowton or White Harbor or the Dreadfort.

And someone living in the North should not be able to understand the language of someone from the Reach or Dorne at all.

Absolutely spot on ;-).

You can even divide it further...dialects in Bavaria alone differ that much across different regions (Altbaiern, Franconia, Swabia) that it might be difficult to understand each other ;-).

But as Martin is no linguist or doesnt care that much about languages in general, I try to ignore this. Even though it makes absolutely no sense (for the North in particular).

It seems he tried to make it better in Essos, with the various dialects of Bastard Valyrian IIRC.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Yes, you really ought to know better than to quibble about my own country's history. But, hey, if you want to be educated, I'll indulge.

-> snip

Well . . . every single site I looked at the addressed the subject spoke of the various ways that Norway continued to exist, under Danish domination, to be sure, but it continued to exist. I looked at quite a few and the six links I provided were not the only ones, either. Jeez louise, dude, one of them was from the frickin' Royal House of Norway! Furthermore, the only reason I went looking for those links to start with is that the smidgeon of Norwegian history I already had was enough that I already knew that Norway never ceased to exist during the Danish Union. You haven't given me a single link to your idea. At this point, unless you're the Dean of History at Norway U., I'm not giving your points much credence, and even then I'm going to peg you for a revisionist.

DENMARK SAID Norway didn't exist anymore. Norway did not acknowledge that.

As for Finland, it's a new nation, not a continuation of an old nation. Not the same thing at all.

[Ingelheim]

LOL at the people who say that there are no parallels in our real world.

Ever heard of Portugal?

[Hodor's Dragon]

LOL at the people who say that there are no parallels in our real world.

Ever heard of Portugal?

OK, I'll bite.

As a matter of fact, I have heard of Portugal. And your point?