Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[Bail o' Lies]

Theon - Reek

Circumstances aside, you can see that there is obvious precedent for a man to look considerably older than he actually is.

The obvious counter is "Well, Theon was tortured", but it's not the "torture" which ages someone - it is specifically the stress induced.

So the question becomes - Could Howland have suffered enough stress that he would age so much?

This can't be answered definitively, but we can all agree that there is precedent for characters looking older than they are - here are a few off the top of my head:

-Theon Greyjoy

-Robbet Glover

-Thoros of Myr

-Jaime Lannister

-Ned Stark

And, interestingly, most all of these are characters which were aged by the trials of war.

Quit using Theon as an example that was caused by torture and stress. You have a better example is with Ned. Even the people how disagrees with this theory have to agree that Howland is at least Ned's age 35 by the start of the story. By the Start of Game of Thrones Ned hair was already going grey which Bran point out makes him look at lot older than he actually is. The High Septon hair is not white but a mix of Grey and Brown. and once again i Will ask the people on this forum "What age is a man consider old in The Seven Kingdoms terms?" Women in this story seem to be consider as such once they have "flowered", and are consider old by mid 20's. Boy are consider men once they reach about sixteen but by what age is a man finally consider an old man? 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 100,000? What age? He not some 60-80 year old man with white hair and is losing even that. So he must be younger but old enough to be consider by Cersei old who also consider he husband old and notice that Jamie was getting grey hairs in his Beard by a Feast for Crows.

[willofDorne]

Quit using Theon as an example that was caused by torture and stress. You have a better example is with Ned. Even the people how disagrees with this theory have to agree that Howland is at least Ned's age 35 by the start of the story. By the Start of Game of Thrones Ned hair was already going grey which Bran point out makes him look at lot older than he actually is. The High Septon hair is not white but a mix of Grey and Brown. and once again i Will ask the people on this forum "What age is a man consider old in The Seven Kingdoms terms?" Women in this story seem to be consider as such once they have "flowered", and are consider old by mid 20's. Boy are consider men once they reach about sixteen but by what age is a man finally consider an old man? 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 100,000? What age? He not some 60-80 year old man with white hair and is losing even that. So he must be younger but old enough to be consider by Cersei old who also consider he husband old and notice that Jamie was getting grey hairs in his Beard by a Feast for Crows.

There's a study floating around that says the life expectancy is around 45-55 I think... It's extremely low, despite people like Maester Aemon and Old Nan.

[Runs With Direwolves]

There's a House Wells in Dorne too, btw. IMO Theodan's a Stony Dornishman.

Speak to the Wiki editors and have it queried. It states Ser Theodan is of the North. Could be an error IDK it's not the linchpin of the theory.

[three-eyed monkey]

With regard to the matter of age:

We have a pretty good estimate that Howland is aged between 35 and 39. GRRM has stated that Howland would be in his thirties, so 39 max. We also know that he was a man grown when he left the Neck, at least 16, spent the whole of winter on the Isle of Faces, a year or two or perhaps three, and then went to the tourney at Harrenhall in the year of false spring, 18 years ago.

The Sparrow is described as having grey hair, a lined face, and a grizzled grey-brown beard. The fact that he still has brown in his beard suggests that he is not a frail old man. Cersei says he is an old sparrow when she brushes him aside in her attempt to escape, but her pov is biased and she is quite a bitch, so I would expect no less of her. The description we are given by Brienne is of a man in his mid to late forties. That would mean that the Sparrow appears to be around ten years older than Howland. As has been pointed out, there are many characters in the books, as in real life, who appear older than they are. One example from Jon's pov in ASoS:

A big man, Stannis Baratheon towered over Jon, but he was so gaunt that he looked ten years older than he was.

Now some people quote the appendix from AFfC and ADwD which says:

THE HIGH SEPTON, Father of the Faithful, Voice of the Seven on Earth, and old man and frail.

This is a reference to the previous High Septon, who was the High Septon at the beginning of both books, and who is described in the text as - A bent old man with a wispy grey beard, he was so stooped by the weight of his ornate embroidered robes that his eyes were on a level with the queen's breasts...

If the description in the appendix was of the current High Septon then I think we might expect to see something like this:

THE HIGH SEPTON, called THE HIGH SPARROW... Just as we see, SER DAVOS SEAWORTH, called THE ONION KNIGHT, or SER JAIME, twin to Cersei, called THE KINGSLAYER, or TYRION, called THE IMP, etc.

And finally, according to GRRM "the books are the books and the show is the show." We do not use the show to argue that Asha's real name is Yarra, that Grenn is dead, that Strong Belwas does not exist, the Robb's wife died at the Red Wedding, and on and on, so I don't accept the casting of Jonathon Pryce as a valid argument. JP is around 70 years old, and has been cast to play a character described as having a grizzled grey-brown beard. I doubt very much that JP could naturally grow a beard with any colour other than grey or perhaps white in it, so it is hardly a very accurate piece of casting in any regard. Nor can we be certain that Howland Reed will even feature in the show as both the ToJ and KotLT, scenes central to Howland's story, have been omitted so far.

[Game Of Thrones]

For people saying the 'old man and frail' is about Tyrion's HS

-The ADWD appendix called Euron a king.

-The ADWD appendix says Marg is imprisoned for high treason.

-The ADWD appendix says Arys Oakheart is dead in Dorne.

-The ADWD appendix says Asha is married to that old guy in the Kingsmoot.

-The ADWD appendix lists Victarion as a suitor.

-The ADWD appendix says that Cersei is imprisoned by three gaolers.

So, LOL a lot.

[pobeb]

For people saying the 'old man and frail' is about Tyrion's HS

-The ADWD appendix called Euron a king.

-The ADWD appendix says Marg is imprisoned for high treason.

-The ADWD appendix says Arys Oakheart is dead in Dorne.

-The ADWD appendix says Asha is married to that old guy in the Kingsmoot.

-The ADWD appendix lists Victarion as a suitor.

-The ADWD appendix says that Cersei is imprisoned by three gaolers.

So, LOL a lot.

And Jon is Ned's bastard

And Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are all Robert's children

In the appendix of ADwD, Margery is listed as:

held captive in the Great Sept of Baelor

But, we definitely know she's not in the Sept of Baelor.

According to the ADwD Appendix, Theon is apparently still at the Dreadfort:

THEON, called by northmen THEON TURNCLOAK, a captive at the Dreadfort

The point is, the Appendix is there to give you a general impression of who everyone is, but it's not to be taken as gospel. Elsewise, Ned would actually be Jon's dad, and Robert would be Joffs's dad, etc. The Appendix is riddled with all sorts of holes.

[Game Of Thrones]

And Jon is Ned's bastard

And Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are all Robert's children

In the appendix of ADwD, Margery is listed as:

But, we definitely know she's not in the Sept of Baelor.

According to the ADwD Appendix, Theon is apparently still at the Dreadfort:

The point is, the Appendix is there to give you a general impression of who everyone is, but it's not to be taken as gospel. Elsewise, Ned would actually be Jon's dad, and Robert would be Joffs's dad, etc. The Appendix is riddled with all sorts of holes.

The appendix is what WESTEROSI THINK. Hence Ned being Jon's dad and Bob being Joff's dad. But I doubt they'll think a man about as old as Ned is 'weak' and 'frail'.

[pobeb]

The appendix is what WESTEROSI THINK. Hence Ned being Jon's dad and Bob being Joff's dad. But I doubt they'll think a man about as old as Ned is 'weak' and 'frail'.

Thank you - and WESTEROSI THINKS the High Septon is old and frail

Despite this:

The septon lifted one of the traces of the wayn upon his shoulder, and began to pull.

Does that sound like action of an old and frail man to you?

[LordStoneheart]

Though I am a proud member of the book snobs club, I do think there is something to be said about the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the Sparrow. He is in his late sixties. Note that the fifth season was written after Tweedle D&D went to GRRM's house and went over many intricate plot and character details. Yet they still cast an old man as the Sparrow. That should really corroborate that Sparrow is an old man.

And Howland is not. What I've seen so far about his age hasn't been exactly strong evidence. Basically, he could look old. It's certainly possible. But many things can be considered merely possible and at the same time very improbable, including such crackpot gems as Hodor=AAR, Daario=Euron=Benjen, Aerys/Joanna... Something being possible does not say as much as supporters would like it to.

[three-eyed monkey]

For people saying the 'old man and frail' is about Tyrion's HS

-The ADWD appendix called Euron a king.

-The ADWD appendix says Marg is imprisoned for high treason.

-The ADWD appendix says Arys Oakheart is dead in Dorne.

-The ADWD appendix says Asha is married to that old guy in the Kingsmoot.

-The ADWD appendix lists Victarion as a suitor.

-The ADWD appendix says that Cersei is imprisoned by three gaolers.

So, LOL a lot.

All of these things were revealed in AFfC and therefore are no longer spoilers, so they can be updated in the ADwD appendix. The simple fact is that the High Septon referred to in the AFfC appendix IS Tyrion's High Septon, who according to the text was old and frail. The appendix is pretty much correct as of the start of the book, so characters who die during a book are not usually listed as dead until the next book to prevent anyone who might reference the appendix while reading the book from being spoiled.

If you think the previous High Septon and the High Sparrow have the exact same description then fair enough, but I don't buy that. And as I said, if the appendix in ADwD was describing the High Sparrow, then I would expect the to see the it say, called THE HIGH SPARROW, as we see of every other character from major characters like Jaime, Tyrion, Sandor, Brienne, and Robb, to lesser characters like Rolland Storm, Jeyne Heddle, Amerei Frey, and Dick Crabb, described.

Though I am a proud member of the book snobs club, I do think there is something to be said about the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the Sparrow. He is in his late sixties. Note that the fifth season was written after Tweedle D&D went to GRRM's house and went over many intricate plot and character details. Yet they still cast an old man as the Sparrow. That should really corroborate that Sparrow is an old man.

And Howland is not. What I've seen so far about his age hasn't been exactly strong evidence. Basically, he could look old. It's certainly possible. But many things can be considered merely possible and at the same time very improbable, including such crackpot gems as Hodor=AAR, Daario=Euron=Benjen, Aerys/Joanna... Something being possible does not say as much as supporters would like it to.

As a self-proclaimed member of the book snob club then you should realise that the book and show are quite different. I don't know what was discussed between D&D and GRRM, but I do know GRRM considers the show to have a separate canon. He has said so a number of times, for those who had not worked it out for themselves. If indeed D&D and GRRM did go over a number of intricate plot details, as you claim, and I'm not disputing that they did, then it would seem to me that much of it was lost on D&D because they cast a 20 year old to play 13 year old Trystane Martell, and so far nobody to play Arianne. Based on this, I for one expect season 5 of the show to continue to adapt the books in the same loose manner it has for the previous 4 seasons.

And while I agree that possible may well equate to improbable at times, I don't see this as being one of those occasions. Not when book snobs need to lean on the casting of the show to make their point.

[LordStoneheart]

I am not leaning on the show. I am saying that it shouldn't be discounted as evidence when it clearly is. Frustrating as it is, they know the ending and they went over it with GRRM thoroughly. While I have no doubt Arianne was deleted, that doesn't have relevance to the point I made since it is just speculation at this point. The books say he is an old man. The show casts an old man. GRRM says Howland is not an old man.

If in the small chance HR is super spy extraordinaire, that does not seem like a plot D&D would streamline.

[Narvi]

There's as much chance of Howland Reed being High Septon as there is Val becoming a silent sister. Nice read though.

[LordStoneheart]

I said as such in another thread, but this in "Mance is Rhaegar" territory for me in terms of how little it makes any actual sense. I've just kind ignored it up to this point, but that's my opinion. I'd also think that casting someone like Jonathan Pryce to play the High Sparrow would have put the kibosh on it, but I guess not.

This is all the proof I need. Apple says nay. ;)

[kn1tt3r]

Every time I see this thread I wonder "what the hell is a High Septon 2.0?"...

Nice theory and I would really like to see this come true. I don't really buy it (mostly due to the oldish appearance of the HS, and also because I don't really think the northmen would care all THAT much about the southern business, i.e. King's Landing, the Lannisters and even the Iron Throne), but I'm certainly rooting for it.

[Ziriath]

She bear women... They're just big, peasant women, you'll find lots of them around. There are more than a handful of large women in the world, you know, some of them even have hard hands, that doesn't mean they all come from bear island.

Axe-wielding, shaggy... Axes are a peasant weapon because they don't require much smelting or technology to manufacture as compared to a sword. You can make an axe with a flint. So axes are the most commonly used weapon among poor people.

The peasants are shaggy because they don't shave! What a surprise! Shaving requires a very sharp edge (expensive) and a reflective surface, again expensive. Impoverished peasants don't tend to have easy access to these things.

Many of the sparrows are from the north because the north lost the war, they feel disenfranchised unrepresented a religious rebellion is just another way of assuaging that anger and loss.

Again the sparrows are resilient because they are survivors, they have survived a war famine and probably being deprived of a roof over their heads. They're also as mad a hell about it, the sparrow movement is fuelled by anger and resentment.

My eyes are as brown as mud! So are many other people's, so what?

You are simply grasping at odd words here and there and erecting this entire extremely poor, extremely rickety theory on this very weak foundation.

And you criticize me for quoting from the wiki?

And we even do not have any description of how the other two Mormont girls look like. They all do not have to look something like woman Jorah. Some of them can look more or less like their father/s, whoever it was. All the known physical description of lady Maege is: quite old, grey of hair, short of stature and stout. Does she look fine, or ugly like her nephew? Was she beautiful when she was young? We do not know. Aly has crooked teeth, but that's all we know about her face. Dacey was described quite different from her mother and Aly, yet there wasn't much description, after all.

[willofDorne]

I wonder if Jonathan Pryce is cast as the High Septon but will die early in the show and be replaced by Howland Reed's character?

I'm actually full blown behind this theory. I think it makes more sense than R+L=J, which I think is ambiguous at best.

We are simply given too many clues that connect the new High Septon to the North, Old Gods, and Howland Reed himself. If High Septon does not turn out to be Howland Reed, I'll be surprised at this point.

Call me a convert!

As a side note... I think having Howland Reed as an advocate for Jon Snow being king is a little bizarre. I think he's just decided that infiltration and spying is a powerful form of war.

An interesting idea... What could Maggie the Frog have to do with any of this?

[pobeb]

And we even do not have any description of how the other two Mormont girls look like. They all do not have to look something like woman Jorah. Some of them can look more or less like their father/s, whoever it was. All the known physical description of lady Maege is: quite old, grey of hair, short of stature and stout. Does she look fine, or ugly like her nephew? Was she beautiful when she was young? We do not know. Aly has crooked teeth, but that's all we know about her face. Dacey was described quite different from her mother and Aly, yet there wasn't much description, after all.

Again, I'm not asserting that the septas are the Mormont women. I'm saying that the septas are she-bears, and I use other she-bears to match their descriptions. You're telling me we have no evidence, despite the fact that all the evidence you need is in the OP:

She-Bears:

- short

- stout

- chunky

- muscular

- big breasts

- big hands ridged with callus

Cersei’s Septas:

- short

- thick-waisted

- big-boned

- mannish

- heavy breast

- callused hands

This is, word for word, straight out of the text.

It's fine if you want to dismiss this as a coincidence, but to suggest that the descriptions don't match, when they OBVIOUSLY do, seems wrong to me.

Call me a convert!

Awesome :)

[Bail o' Lies]

Here is my thought onto why they made Jonathan Pryce the High Sparrow's actor...He's Jonathan Pryce he is a big name actor at least in comparison to most of the cast. Either the show has gotten popular enough they were able to hire him or he asked the producer it he could work on the show because it was popular. Either way since he's a respected actor the show creator probably wanted to give him an important role. Now other than the High Sparrow what character that we haven't been introduce yet could Pryce play?

[Game Of Thrones]

I'm actually full blown behind this theory. I think it makes more sense than R+L=J, which I think is ambiguous at best.

Nope. The amount of believers in R+L=J is maybe ten times the amount of believers in HS=HR.

[ctid1977]

That's true.

R+L=J is taken as cannon by many.

HR+HS is just an intriguing theory which I personally like but will not be convinced of one way or another unless I see it in a book. I don't think it's crackpot at all but I'm on the fence with this. FWIW I am 90% convinced by the GNC theory and I firmly believe that the gravedigger is the Hound, be it simply his ambiguous happy ending. HR=HS is not Mance = Rhaegar territory though, to me it's a pretty cool logical leap and I'd love to see it play out.