Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[WeirWolfWeirCastle]

I think this is a good point. We don't know the extent of HR's ruthlessness. By the way, one newbie to another, welcome to the boards! :cheers:

Thanks! I've been browsing the boards since I started the books and it has given me insight on so many things that I missed while reading. I thought it was about time I joined the discussion.

[willofDorne]

I was putting off commenting about the eyes because I felt it was too self evident and didn't feel I had anything significant to add... but now I have two things to add about the eyes!

Many of you are questioning HR/HS having brown eyes, as you think HR should have green, since his children do. Well, you may not know this, but green eyes are very rare. More rare than blue eyes. What's more, they can easily be mistaken for brown. This isn't just a literary device, as the "purple eyes" are mistaken for "blue" in other chapters. Green eyes seriously look brown, do a google search. It's very rare for eyes to be vividly green. So, it's possible HR has brown eyes, or almost green eyes, but his children have green eyes, it's not a big deal.

But... there's one other thing. Who else has green eyes? Cersei. And Howland Reed is dancing circles around her as if she is a child. I can't help but laugh when I think of this, because both his children are green eyed. If green eyes were not so rare, I wouldn't think much of this coincidence, but I think GRRM harps on these coincidences for a reason.

[edd tollett:(]

Counter Arguments:

1) Howland was confirmed by GRRM to be in his 30's, yet the High Septon has grey hair, a lined face, and is described as an "old man" both by Cersei and in the Appendix of AFoC and ADwD.

2) Howland's efforts would be better directed to other causes - helping the North against the Boltons, or helping the Riverlands against the Freys

3) *I have to quote this one because apparently I'm incapable of interpreting it accurately:

Counter argument: hahaha haha hahaha wow! this is out there!

But I have to give you credit for creativity. You should try fan fiction. Not bullshit I bet you'd be great

[willofDorne]

Counter argument: hahaha haha hahaha wow! this is out there!

But I have to give you credit for creativity. You should try fan fiction. Not bullshit I bet you'd be great

That's totally uncalled for. This is one of the best theories out there. Keep reading.

[Universal Sword Donor]

That's totally uncalled for. This is one of the best theories out there. Keep reading.

It's not even close to being one of the best theories

[Lady Woodland]

And HR isn't an idiot either, just from a very different culture.

Yes but this is because you can read a Western language and you come from a Christian background, you grew up with the bible as did I but try to imagine what you would make of it if you hadn't... If say, you were an Amazonian tribesperson with no prior contact with Christianity.

HR comes from a culture that is totally apart and totally alienated from that which prevails in the rest of Westeros, he might well be a genius but there is no way he could pass himself off as a septon let alone as the HS.

for someone who bases their ENTIRE argument of this theory around their belief the text is being misinterpreted you have a LOT of nerve providing invented information which you seem to believe to be your own personal canon, you are INVENTING things here, you are assuming way too much about HR's character - where are you getting this information from - certainly not the text. We know little about their lifestyle but the Reed Oath gives us enough insight to deduct it's NOT a totally different culture, you are wrong here.

Yes HR lives in a swamp BUT he has spent time at the Isle of Faces, at war in RR, at least one tourney, he also has a wife (who we nothing about) all of these could have given him information about the faith of the Seven.

Where do you get the idea of comparing him to an Amazonian tribesperson?. If he was so illiterate he was incapable of learning why did he go to the Isle of Faces in the first place? the same reason anyone goes to a spiritual retreat - curiosity, quest for knowledge, pursue enlightenment.

[Lady Woodland]

It's not even close to being one of the best theories

well perhaps you should read R+L+J version 97 or whatever - it's nice & safe.

[willofDorne]

well perhaps you should read R+L+J version 97 or whatever - it's nice & safe.

:agree:

I no longer read or comment with the close mindedness of R+L=J people.

[Universal Sword Donor]

well perhaps you should read R+L+J version 97 or whatever - it's nice & safe.

I haven't stepped foot in one of those threads in years (to post or browse).

I'm fairly open minded but this theory in entirely too dependent on coincidence. If it had a whiff of implication, I might be on board.

[Lady Woodland]

I do not think that the counter-arguments are necessarily valid-

#3

- Both of these religions have been living side by side in relative peace; as far as current times - even the NW offers the choice to take the vows in front of the 7 or the Old Gods-

There are people who are not of a certain religion that know a lot about other religions- I can site numerous things from religious texts that are not my religion-and given a month I bet I could pull it off (and I am no Meryl Streep either)

?? perhaps one of the things the Old Gods harp on is knowing everyone else's religion??-or it comes as a product of whatever power he has in his own religious endeavors- perhaps he uses his 'greensee' magic to 'know things' he shouldn't

How long did it take you (the general you) to remember/pull obscure references from GRRM text and site them in arguments/posts as Grand Wizards of ASOIAF?

is it a stretch to think HR could learn enough of a religion to which he doesn't belong to pull of a ruse? I don't see it as impossible

I also feel counter #2 - he has better things he could be doing - also lacks punch-

we know the Reeds are not into open conflict but rather subversive tactics- and the guys with the 'brawn' tactic are already taking care of the Boltons- i.e. Manderly

#1 the age of the high sparrow - is the best counter-- imo--but could also be a trick-glamor or mummers-

still not sold the HS is HR but I am not against it

Great post, this is as intelligent & thoughtful digestion of the evidence & Beric has some good points, he is right, it's entirely probable to learn enough basics to pull this off.

To those who knock this theory & postulate the HS is a random Septon - Wouldn't it be a really naff coincidence for GRRM to invent a new character so late in the books without an agenda that supports the existing plot? There has to be some literary link otherwise the coincidence of a total stranger with the sole intention to re-invent the Faith of the 7 & re-establish the Faith Millitant just for his own sake makes no sense, how convenient for the North & the Crown's enemies, not buying it, if he's not HR - who else that we already have heard about & has a valid reason to bring down the Lannisters is a probable contender?.

ForestChilde has already tried to use the text clues to try this theory on another character & it didn't work.

[Lady Woodland]

Does anyone else think that having a big name actor like Jonathan Pryce might give some credence to this theory? I have never looked at the show for clues, but now that the show is almost caught up to the books, I'm starting to think that there may be more clues and this might be one of them. The fact that they are having a big name actor play the role of someone who had a somewhat important, but minor role makes me think that this character could be come integral to the story, mainly in the North's revenge and R+L=J.

Welcome :cheers:

I agree, yes he is probably older as a person/actor as what we envison HR might be but I agree I think he's a good fit in my mind he is slightly balding with a grey/white tonsure style receding hairline. The great thing about the movie/TV world is that they have the ability to change peoples looks - most of these actors have their appearance altered. I was watching the 3rd series the other day & was struck how much "older" Beric Dondarion was in the show than what I was led to believe from reading the books - aged up about 15 years if I'm not mistaken.

Besides we are pretty sure Jojen is going to an early grave due to his "gift" of the green-dreams, BR is half tree, we have NO idea what HR looks like - yes he may only be 35 but his gifts as well as the harsh environment of the swamps may have aged him prematurely, we won't know till we see the result on our screens, I really don't think the age discrepancy is a viable argument.

[willofDorne]

I'm now pretty much convinced that HR is a sleeper character reserved for a side comic, video game, or something else. He's too ridiculously awesome to be "accidentally left out"

1. He just so happens to fit a "Robin Hood" esque profile, with a lot of unique and dark twists, yet doesn't get any POV time.

2. His children are featured prominently without the slightest hint of him being dead. And yet... other father figures, such as the ass Mace Tyrell get featured prominently, despite his children being worlds more competent. *cough* Garlan. *cough* Willas

3. Survived one of the most contested, famous bouts of ASOIAF, at the TOJ. Was a lynchpin in the KotLT.

Now my question is, was this on purpose, so GRRM could sell rights to this character and make more $$$? Or is it just super clever writing that coincidentally looks amazing on paper.

I say... I don't care. it's 1000s better than Boba Fett, or many other cult favorite characters. I think when we all get a dose of the real Howland Reed, we will literally be blown away. Even if it does seem to be a slightly contrived "robin hood" shoe in, it will be recongized as original, clever and genius enough to get our nods and applause.

The only real question ANYONE should be asking is WTF is wrong with D&D hiring JONATHAN PRYCE???

My guess is they were not willing to pay the dollar value associated with this character, and are not going to be given free reign to introduce it to us properly. Which is sad... but what can you expect from the people who cut COLDHANDS,

[Clariana]

for someone who bases their ENTIRE argument of this theory around their belief the text is being misinterpreted you have a LOT of nerve providing invented information which you seem to believe to be your own personal canon, you are INVENTING things here, you are assuming way too much about HR's character - where are you getting this information from - certainly not the text. We know little about their lifestyle but the Reed Oath gives us enough insight to deduct it's NOT a totally different culture, you are wrong here.

Yes HR lives in a swamp BUT he has spent time at the Isle of Faces, at war in RR, at least one tourney, he also has a wife (who we nothing about) all of these could have given him information about the faith of the Seven.

Where do you get the idea of comparing him to an Amazonian tribesperson?. If he was so illiterate he was incapable of learning why did he go to the Isle of Faces in the first place? the same reason anyone goes to a spiritual retreat - curiosity, quest for knowledge, pursue enlightenment.

And you are being bloody insulting instead of presenting a reasoned argument. So basically, bog off!

[Game Of Thrones]

Pobeb, I respect you a lot for the amount of work you put into these theories.

Just so you know.

[Clariana]

I think one of the most disappointing things I've encountered on this board is the overwhelming negative criticisms I get on the daily. These criticisms rarely have any textual support themselves and are, many times, attacks on my personal character.

Suggestions that I have bias, that I'm ignorant, that I'm dumb, that I'm crazy, that I'm purposely misleading, that I twist text, that I can't write, that I can't read, and that my theories should be locked and not discussed.

And this isn't just happening once in a blue moon - this is happening practically every day.

... and yet when other people are being insulted by your supporters, like Lady Woodlander, you just keep quiet.

[Game Of Thrones]

... and yet when other people are being insulted by your supporters, like Lady Woodlander, you just keep quiet.

Well, he did tell a person who said everyone who didn't believe in HR=HS was a fool to be polite. But maybe it's because that person was so obviously wrong.

[WeaselPie]

few things

The High Sparrow specifically mentions Ned's beheading. Doesn't seem to be the normal behavior of a High Seption - we did not hear the last Septon complain about it. He is associated with Ned Stark from some of our first impressions of him in the story.

There is no way Howland is illiterate in the Common Tongue. He is a Lord of Westeros, and Robb sent him letters.

The appendix often describes characters as others see them. We cannot forget that almost everything we know about the HS must be filtered through Cersei's eyes, and she isn't known for being kind or accurate when assessing how people look.

If a particularly driven student at the Citadel can earn 3 links (mastering a subject) in a years time (Alleras), it's not farfetched that Howland could learn enough about the Faith in a years time.

The casting means nothing. Actually, casting such a high profile actor in this role should raise an eyebrow, not for his age, but for the actor's acceptance of the role.

If you must use the show as an argument, I'll give an example to support this theory that the HS may only seem old and frail to Cersei (remember we only see him through Cersei's eyes in her POVs). Pycelle is faking being frail and slow and clumsy in the show. Cersei in particular sees him this way, even in the book.

[Shagwell the mad jester]

If a particularly driven student at the Citadel can earn 3 links (mastering a subject) in a years time (Alleras), it's not farfetched that Howland could learn enough about the Faith in a years time.

And become a leader of thousands of real priests without a single one noticing? Come on.

[Mithras]

We know from Arianne II of TWoW that

Mace and Randyll left KL and are marching to Storm's End to deal with JonCon. Mace would not move until Margaery was secure, so there must be an update about her trial.

We also know from Mercy of TWoW that

"A queen" will take the head of Harys Swyft if he cannot return with loans from Braavos. This does not sound like Margaery.

How can these facts be interpreted according to this theory, I am curious.

[WeaselPie]

And become a leader of thousands of real priests without a single one noticing? Come on.

The sparrows are a ragtag bunch who, we know, collected many followers along the way, and the High Sparrow was forcibly elected to the position of High Septon.

The septons in KL did not put him through a vetting process. He was "elected" with axes, spears, and a mob - not by a laborious examination by his peers resulting in a vote and white smoke coming from a tower.

This mob could consist of anyone. There is no vetting process to become a "sparrow."

Notably, the High Sparrow became known for performing marriages etc. in villages where there were no septs ergo, no local septons to quiz him.

We also know this is just a story that was told, not a first hand POV. Why did GRRM pointedly give the history of this Septon as someone whose main work before being elected was performing rites in villages with no septon? If he is just a random Septon, why not give him a history as a Septon of a village for many years? Why not give the man a bit more history to explain his following?

How does the fact that he was supposedly a wandering septon for villages with no septs serve the story? It doesn't, unless GRRM is hiding something, which I believe is usually true.

Being named High Septon is somewhat like joining the Watch or the Citadel, wherein family names are not supposed to matter. Of course they still matter, and it is pointed out that they still matter, but GRRM makes his decisions for a reason.

In particular, the High Septon is supposed to abandon their name when they are elected to office, and we never hear a name uttered. GRRM made that decision, not me. It provides a convenient way to hide someone's origin, yet when GRRM breaks this rule on the Wall and at the Citadel, he does not break this rule for the High Sparrow.

ETA GRRM made these decisions to tell his story, not me. We know very little about the High Sparrow, which means GRRM wanted it that way. You have to ask why.