Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[Clariana]

Does anyone else think that having a big name actor like Jonathan Pryce might give some credence to this theory? I have never looked at the show for clues, but now that the show is almost caught up to the books, I'm starting to think that there may be more clues and this might be one of them. The fact that they are having a big name actor play the role of someone who had a somewhat important, but minor role makes me think that this character could be come integral to the story, mainly in the North's revenge and R+L=J.

No.

I think to the contrary Pryce will be portraying the HS as a fanatic a zealot and a puritan, which is what he is, using the mob to spread terror and impose a religious dictatorship. Hopefully after season five most will be pretty convinced that the honourable, mild-mannered HR cannot possibly be a murdering fundamentalist.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I still think its very possible that this theory is on the mark. Howland Reed could very well be the High Sparrow...Playing a role.

But I believe that Howland Reed is a grandson or great grandson of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones. Duncan the Small gave up the throne for love of Jenny. I do believe the Reeds are his descendants. Out of sight out of mind..made sense for them to go into the Neck so that the Targs on the throne would not suspect them of plotting to gain the throne back.

This makes Howland Reed a Targ and he would be very very aware of his family's history. I have noticed that it is Targaryeon history ...knowledge of the history of the Targ kings that this High Septon uses to sway Cersei. He is full of knowledge about the history of the kingdom. We have never really heard him speak much regarding the Seven. He mentions the Father..and justice but everyone would know what each of the Seven stand for.

As the High Septon..he really doesn't need to do much..he appoints others to do his will..and keeps only a small group close to him..( Perhaps others in his plot close to him). He does not leave Baelor's Sept but sends others to deal with Cersei at the Red Keep.

One other important point in my mind at least is this. Other than Blood Raven I think Howland Reed is the most powerful figure. He was given important gifts from the GreenMen. Powerful gifts of magic...one of the most important gifts given is to be able to communicate with the trees. I have not noticed people discussing this one one gift and it seems so important. If Howland cand speak to the trees or look into the trees..communication is flowing both ways! The trees can speak to HR..this mean he has knowledge of anything he needs to know..He can speak to the trees and relay knowledge and they communicate back to him. Whether its spoken word or not..somehow important communication is going on between Blood Raven, Bran and Howland Reed. He is one powerful man.

I will admit that the High Sparrows actions did bother me with Cersei's walk of shame..but this is George's world and he seems to do this karma thing..the Lannisters did this to a woman and perhaps the father's sins are visited upon the children..????

One other issue. While reading the Dunk and Egg stories..when BloodRaven impersonated a Plumm I was shocked at how crude his speech was in regard to women in the story. I had somehow expected Bloodraven to be a more noble fellow in his view of women however he was not..perhaps we also have placed HR on a pedestal and we all will be surprised at how ruthless he actually is.

I don't mind if most of the readers think this is a crackpot theory..there are many of them in this forum. I think there are subtle and not so subtle clues.

The mud issue..I also found it quite interesting that Quentin was considered a frog by Dany and she alluded to the fact that as a frog if he was kissed would he turn into a prince...Again another example of a person who was hidden..a prince..but looked like a frog and associated with mud...not a great leap to see that Martin is perhaps giving us some clues about another price who does not look like a prince..is associated with mud which gives food ..and is known for eating frogs..lol That George is a tricksty writer.

Po

[Universal Sword Donor]

I still think its very possible that this theory is on the mark. Howland Reed could very well be the High Sparrow...Playing a role.

But I believe that Howland Reed is a grandson or great grandson of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones. Duncan the Small gave up the throne for love of Jenny. I do believe the Reeds are his descendants. Out of sight out of mind..made sense for them to go into the Neck so that the Targs on the throne would not suspect them of plotting to gain the throne back.

This makes Howland Reed a Targ and he would be very very aware of his family's history. I have noticed that it is Targaryeon history ...knowledge of the history of the Targ kings that this High Septon uses to sway Cersei. He is full of knowledge about the history of the kingdom. We have never really heard him speak much regarding the Seven. He mentions the Father..and justice but everyone would know what each of the Seven stand for.

As the High Septon..he really doesn't need to do much..he appoints others to do his will..and keeps only a small group close to him..( Perhaps others in his plot close to him). He does not leave Baelor's Sept but sends others to deal with Cersei at the Red Keep.

One other important point in my mind at least is this. Other than Blood Raven I think Howland Reed is the most powerful figure. He was given important gifts from the GreenMen. Powerful gifts of magic...one of the most important gifts given is to be able to communicate with the trees. I have not noticed people discussing this one one gift and it seems so important. If Howland cand speak to the trees or look into the trees..communication is flowing both ways! The trees can speak to HR..this mean he has knowledge of anything he needs to know..He can speak to the trees and relay knowledge and they communicate back to him. Whether its spoken word or not..somehow important communication is going on between Blood Raven, Bran and Howland Reed. He is one powerful man.

I will admit that the High Sparrows actions did bother me with Cersei's walk of shame..but this is George's world and he seems to do this karma thing..the Lannisters did this to a woman and perhaps the father's sins are visited upon the children..????

One other issue. While reading the Dunk and Egg stories..when BloodRaven impersonated a Plumm I was shocked at how crude his speech was in regard to women in the story. I had somehow expected Bloodraven to be a more noble fellow in his view of women however he was not..perhaps we also have placed HR on a pedestal and we all will be surprised at how ruthless he actually is.

I don't mind if most of the readers think this is a crackpot theory..there are many of them in this forum. I think there are subtle and not so subtle clues.

The mud issue..I also found it quite interesting that Quentin was considered a frog by Dany and she alluded to the fact that as a frog if he was kissed would he turn into a prince...Again another example of a person who was hidden..a prince..but looked like a frog and associated with mud...not a great leap to see that Martin is perhaps giving us some clues about another price who does not look like a prince..is associated with mud which gives food ..and is known for eating frogs..lol That George is a tricksty writer.

Po

Duncan the Small didn't have any kids.

[willofDorne]

Duncan the Small didn't have any kids.

I believe he's referring to this thread. It was actually a very popular and well thought out theory, but seemingly out of place. Now things are starting to add up.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I believe he's referring to this thread. It was actually a very popular and well thought out theory, but seemingly out of place. Now things are starting to add up.

That's fine and not a bad read, but it's fundamentally flawed. Either Duncan and Jenny had no children or they died at Summerhall. The throne would have gone to Duncan's son if he had one, unless Aegon had disowned them. There is absolutely no support in the text for that option. Furthermore, if he had disowned children, they still would have been very likely options for intermarriage among the Targaryens. The complete lack of children being mentioned kind of kill thats for me.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I really like the theory about Duncan and the Reeds. They might have left the children home in the neck and they were visiting Summerhall. We just do not know.

I think it might play into what is happening but of course we will just have to wait and see.

I really have been thinking and thinking about this theory..who this High Sparrow is and his motives. I do believe Martin wants us to ponder his identity. I still mull over the idea that he might be involved with Varys or Hightower..but somehow the clues always hint to the Riverlands and Howland.

[Clariana]

...

Just to say I really love your contributions to this thread!

[Lady Arya's Song]

Thanks Clariana,

I know this is considered a crackpot theory..but I consider or try to consider all the various characters from all the various plots ..trying to discover who fits the High Sparrow best.

Something I found today..and I was not even looking for anything relating to Howland Reed as High Sparrow but it just jumped out..

Notice when Tyrion finds his father Lord Tywin in the field..they are having a war council..and then the door crashes open and a group of " savages who stink" pour into the room and disrupt the War council... they call themselves freemen.. (these are the clan leaders that came with Tyrion from the Vale.)

Various descriptions of the clan leaders and varies descriptions of the reactions of the war council members. I noticed something very subtle. Tyrion quips at times but Lord Tywin the father figure uses Words to sway these savages to come with him to fight. Sound like someone else? Someone one has rounded up a disparate group of small folk and banded them together and used words to sway them into coming into Kingslanding for justice.

What I found interesting was the last few lines after all this happens. They are arguing with Lord Tywin but then they all say if the halfman..goes with them.. you know the ( small guy) then they will go and fight as a unit.

“Ride with me against my enemies, and you shall have all my son promised you, and more,” Lord Tywin told them.

“Would you pay us with our own coin?” Ulf son of Umar said. “Why should we need the father’s promise, when we have the son’s?”

“I said nothing of need,” Lord Tywin replied. “My words were courtesy, nothing more. You need not join us. The men of the winterlands are made of iron and ice, and even my boldest knights fear to face them.”

Oh, deftly done, Tyrion thought, smiling crookedly. ( notice how Tyrion is admiring how his Father is using words to sway these crude men)

“We will ride with you, lion lord,” Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, “but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours.”

Lord Tywin turned his gold-flecked eyes on his son.

“Joy,” Tyrion said with a resigned smile

I could just not read this entire POV and not suspect that Martin was giving us a hint and some clues about how the High Sparrow gathered peoples together..interupted a Most Devout meeting with a select few leaders of the Vale clans..and somehow the halfman..the little guy has to be with them.

Notice Tyrion's last word...JOY! Now I know this is far-fetched but I have to ask myself WHY George used that exact word..which sure made me think of the Tower of Joy and a battle between some King's guards and some men. :)

[willofDorne]

Thanks Clariana,

I know this is considered a crackpot theory..but I consider or try to consider all the various characters from all the various plots ..trying to discover who fits the High Sparrow best.

Something I found today..and I was not even looking for anything relating to Howland Reed as High Sparrow but it just jumped out..

Notice when Tyrion finds his father Lord Tywin in the field..they are having a war council..and then the door crashes open and a group of " savages who stink" pour into the room and disrupt the War council... they call themselves freemen.. (these are the clan leaders that came with Tyrion from the Vale.)

Various descriptions of the clan leaders and varies descriptions of the reactions of the war council members. I noticed something very subtle. Tyrion quips at times but Lord Tywin the father figure uses Words to sway these savages to come with him to fight. Sound like someone else? Someone one has rounded up a disparate group of small folk and banded them together and used words to sway them into coming into Kingslanding for justice.

What I found interesting was the last few lines after all this happens. They are arguing with Lord Tywin but then they all say if the halfman..goes with them.. you know the ( small guy) then they will go and fight as a unit.

“Ride with me against my enemies, and you shall have all my son promised you, and more,” Lord Tywin told them.

“Would you pay us with our own coin?” Ulf son of Umar said. “Why should we need the father’s promise, when we have the son’s?”

“I said nothing of need,” Lord Tywin replied. “My words were courtesy, nothing more. You need not join us. The men of the winterlands are made of iron and ice, and even my boldest knights fear to face them.”

Oh, deftly done, Tyrion thought, smiling crookedly. ( notice how Tyrion is admiring how his Father is using words to sway these crude men)

“We will ride with you, lion lord,” Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, “but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours.”

Lord Tywin turned his gold-flecked eyes on his son.

“Joy,” Tyrion said with a resigned smile

I could just not read this entire POV and not suspect that Martin was giving us a hint and some clues about how the High Sparrow gathered peoples together..interupted a Most Devout meeting with a select few leaders of the Vale clans..and somehow the halfman..the little guy has to be with them.

Notice Tyrion's last word...JOY! Now I know this is far-fetched but I have to ask myself WHY George used that exact word..which sure made me think of the Tower of Joy and a battle between some King's guards and some men. :)

Interesting. I wonder if there are also parallels between the men that Stannis gathers on his way to Winterfell and Deepwood Motte. I'd certainly be interested if I heard the word, "Joy" again.

[pobeb]

Good stuff, as always, Lady Arya's Song!

Something else I noticed of the sparrows and mountain men:

The sparrows mainly use axes and crudgles.

Shagga wields an axe in one hand, a crudgle in the other

[willofDorne]

This is almost unbelievable... but what if?

Telltale games has announced they are introducing an epic new character with the Game of Thrones game that takes place concurrently in the Game of Thrones universe. I can't help but think... it could be... the story of Howland Reed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiVZdg6lng

if so, this could be pretty epic. Gathering people, winning small battles, infiltrating the Red Keep and Baelors Sept and taking over as the High Septon would be perfect for a point and click game because it all takes place by decisions, and wits.

[pobeb]

I would highly recommend a re-read of Bran's chapters with Jojen and Meera - I'm finding amazing things like:

Jojen was so solemn that Old Nan called him “little grandfather,"

Jojen was his friend and his teacher, but sometimes Bran just wanted to hit him.

Cersei itched to slap his solemn, pious face.

And also:

He wondered why they all listened to Jojen so much. He was not a prince like Bran, nor big and strong like Hodor, nor as good a hunter as Meera, yet somehow it was always Jojen telling them what to do.

Sound familiar? ;)

[Game Of Thrones]

Howland taught Meera to fight with a net

Meera traps Summer in a net:

"Thrashing and growling at the net, Summer was only ensnaring himself worse."

The High Septon ensnares Ceresei in his trap, and her thrashing and yelling only works against her.

That's a stretch.

Meera had an actual net. HS had a figurative one.

[Game Of Thrones]

I would highly recommend a re-read of Bran's chapters with Jojen and Meera - I'm finding amazing things like:

And also:

Sound familiar? ;)

This reminds me of JR=HR. Is that what you're suggesting?

[pobeb]

That's a stretch.

Meera had an actual net. HS had a figurative one.

Yes - it is a metaphor.

This reminds me of JR=HR. Is that what you're suggesting?

I'm giving you evidence of instances where Jojen and the High Septon share similarities in the text. It is meant to show you that specific relation, which in turn would strengthen the theory.

[forestchilde]

I really like the theory about Duncan and the Reeds. They might have left the children home in the neck and they were visiting Summerhall. We just do not know.

I think it might play into what is happening but of course we will just have to wait and see.

I really have been thinking and thinking about this theory..who this High Sparrow is and his motives. I do believe Martin wants us to ponder his identity. I still mull over the idea that he might be involved with Varys or Hightower..but somehow the clues always hint to the Riverlands and Howland.

I like that theory, too. The few hints we have (Jenny of Oldstones, the dragonfly amongst the reeds, the woods witch's lament) sketch a poignant tragedy. It would mirror R+L, and reinforce the author's theme of love being the bane of duty.

I think it's plausible that the HS is in cahoots with Varys but for this quote found in the epilogue of ADWD.

Varys to a dying Kevan Lannister: "you were threatening to undo all the good queen's work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen's rule."

I can see no reason for Varys to lie about this to KL, who is dying and for whom he feels sympathy. So his plans seem to have been threatened by the Faith's investiture of Tommen.

I think it's Paper Weaver (I may be wrong) who thinks the HS could be Leyton Hightower. I'm not opposed except we have no evidence other than Leyton Hightower is MIA.

[forestchilde]

I would highly recommend a re-read of Bran's chapters with Jojen and Meera - I'm finding amazing things like:

And also:

Sound familiar? ;)

Nice catch, Pobeb! The "little grandfather" and the HS seem to share a solemn, implacable will that can be irritating but irrefutable.

[White Ravens]

Something else I noticed of the sparrows and mountain men:

The sparrows mainly use axes and crudgles.

Shagga wields an axe in one hand, a crudgle in the other

Whoah! Maybe Shaga is the High Sparrow! He wields the holy weapons and, although he does not adhere to the Faith of the Seven he could still run their entire organization by pretending to be an adherent to the faith and by intimidating the high ranking members of the organization (with his axe and cudgle).

[forestchilde]

Whoah! Maybe Shaga is the High Sparrow! He wields the holy weapons and, although he does not adhere to the Faith of the Seven he could still run their entire organization by pretending to be an adherent to the faith and by intimidating the high ranking members of the organization (with his axe and cudgle).

LOL, I see what you did there. By the way, RIP Johnny "Targ" Winter. He was a great one.

[forestchilde]

This reminds me of JR=HR. Is that what you're suggesting?

I think he's saying JR=son of HR. The son shares character traits of dad.