Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[The King in Black]

When in the Books has it ever said the High Septons had to go through religious scrutiny? From what I understand the Most devout generally just elect the next High Septon from their body. In this case it was more the Sparrow got on the back of some big guys with axes and told the Most Devout to vote him as High Septon or deal with his associates. And they haven't question him since...mostly out of fear.

Still, one misstep, one mistake is all it'll take. He will be under constant scrutiny and pressure.

[Runs With Direwolves]

Fair enough but the torture that drove him insane, and he lost an eye in was not the High Septons work it was Qyburn's.

I completely agree, and a tortured soul will probably be harder to coerce into telling the truth the second time round.

Also I would think that Cersei believes he was tortured as this is what she would do. Although in defence of the Faith and HS torture could be defined as keeping him awake endlessly or other psychological forms. Hell even cleaning the poor guys wounds after Qyburn was done with him could be defined as torture.

The only reason I added the quote was to provide evidence not to provoke, I'm leaning more and more towards this theory the more i think about it.

[Runs With Direwolves]

Still, one misstep, one mistake is all it'll take. He will be under constant scrutiny and pressure.

The HS does not leave the Sept of Baelor. This could be seen as an Occupation Movement or it could be keeping himself out of the public eye to avoid such missteps and mistakes being visible to those that could plot against him. In any scenes with the HS I can remember he has himself surrounded by his Most Faithful, not the usual Septons and religious people.

[Game Of Thrones]

Would Howland really torture Margaery? Or the Blue Bard?

[pobeb]

Still, one misstep, one mistake is all it'll take. He will be under constant scrutiny and pressure.

He forcefully took the seat of the High Septon, by way of men armed with axes. Since he stole that seat, Cersei, Jaime, and the council members have all received various reports of the new High Septon doing things radically different from his predecessors. Though, despite this behavior, he remains untouched and unchecked.

At the end of ADwD, he's muscled his way into an undeniable position of power, as Randyl Tarly explains:

“What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?”

[Runs With Direwolves]

Would Howland really torture Margaery? Or the Blue Bard?

When does the HS torture Margaery? I don't have my books with me.

He could say he did to appease Cersei and make her believe she is getting her way, same as with the Faith Militant. Supposition though :dunno:

[Game Of Thrones]

When does the HS torture Margaery? I don't have my books with me.

He could say he did to appease Cersei and make her believe she is getting her way, same as with the Faith Militant. Supposition though :dunno:

Sleep deprivation is torture.

[pobeb]

When does the HS torture Margaery? I don't have my books with me.

He could say he did to appease Cersei and make her believe she is getting her way, same as with the Faith Militant. Supposition though :dunno:

She is held in confinement like Cersei, and Septa Moelle later examines her to see if her hymen is intact.

I guess you could interpret that as torture, but it seems like a stretch.

[pobeb]

Sleep deprivation is torture.

So then, your question is:

Would Howland really allow Margery to be repeatedly deprived of sleep? Or allow the Blue Bard to be whipped?

Not being facetious, just clarifying so I can add it to the list of arguments against.

[Runs With Direwolves]

She is held in confinement like Cersei, and Septa Moelle later examines her to see if her hymen is intact.

I guess you could interpret that as torture, but it seems like a stretch.

Unintentional pun or just my filthy mind?? :blushing:

Better Moelle than Pycelle i guess.

[Game Of Thrones]

So then, your question is:

Would Howland really allow Margery to be repeatedly deprived of sleep? Or allow the Blue Bard to be whipped?

Not being facetious, just clarifying so I can add it to the list of arguments against.

Yeah.

Would Howland allow the sleep deprivation or whipping of people who are rather obviously innocent?

ETA: when I first tried to submit this post, I got "you do not have permission to reply to locked topics." Why is that?

[Runs With Direwolves]

Sleep deprivation is torture.

I completely agree, but I would take this over anything Qyburn would be dishing out. Not justifying it but it's morally grey compared to physical injuries etc

I recall Cersei being repeatedly awoken, just when she thought she would get sleep, for "prayer and repentance". Are we sure that Marge was treated the same as Cersei. Does Margaery speak of this to Cersei visits?

[pobeb]

Unintentional pun or just my filthy mind?? :blushing:

Better Moelle than Pycelle i guess.

Definitely uninentional, but pretty funny nonetheless!

[JonSnow4President]

Hey, please tone it down. I wouldn't have asked "How's that sound?" if I was trying to simply assert my own definition of his argument. I gave him my interpretation of what he wrote, and asked if that's the way it was intended. He didn't respond, so I just took it as how I understood it and listed it above. If that's not how it is, that's fine, but it's unfair and uncalled for to tell me I'm doing a "BS dodge".

I explained in the disclaimer above, I'm not trying to get caught up in arguing the merits of the argument pro or con - after the OP, I only want to mediate the discussion by presenting a proper medium for both sides. Hence, the post dedicated to listing and highlighting the counter arguments. Why would I have reserved space to list the counter arguments if I didn't want them to be properly seen and understood?

If I misinterpret or misrepresent the argument, please feel free to tell me. But please don't accuse me of trying to deliberately confuse an idea when I'm actively trying my best to give the con-group a platform to express themselves.

p.s. I guess, to insure I'm not misquoting anyone, I'll just quote the posted argument instead of interpreting it. See above.

You turned "a catholic can't successfully go to Mecca and preach Islam undetected after only a year of training" into "a catholic can't pretend to be Muslim". The post is pretty crystal clear that it was his ability to deceive, rather than the possibility of deception.

[tommystinker]

Well done pobeb

A really well written op and I certainly enjoyed reading it.

Read quite a lot of the first thread and at first thought it was interesting but didn't believe. As the thread grew and more and more evidence stacks up its starting to become believable.

Well done espicailly with the she bears.

Think I'm in the "I really hope this theory is true but I'm not totally convinced camp"

[RedShirt47]

Howland is too young.
Howland (and the Cranogmen in general) tend to keep to themselves. He is never described as being a charismatic person. So why would he think that by just heading south and speaking with the smallfolk that he could gather a rabble?
Once a rabble had been gathered why did he assume he could control it?
How did he know the current High Septon would die?
Could he think the chances that he and his rabble could be appointed to the High Septonhood and re-instate the Faith Militant were any good?

There are too many unforeseen and uncontrollable variables to make it a viable plan. Howland would not consider heading south with such a sketchy plan.

I think the High Sparrow was just a charismatic out-spoken guy in the right place at the time and made the most of the opportunities that arose.

[Runs With Direwolves]

Howland is too young. - We are never given a specific age of the HS

Howland (and the Cranogmen in general) tend to keep to themselves.- The current HS is remaining very isolated within the Sept

He is never described as being a charismatic person. So why would he think that by just heading south and speaking with the smallfolk that he could gather a rabble?
Once a rabble had been gathered why did he assume he could control it? - If the main core of the rabble were Northmen loyal to HR he may have possible control

How did he know the current High Septon would die? [Crackpot] Green dreams???? Jojen knew about the sea coming to WF

Could he think the chances that he and his rabble could be appointed to the High Septonhood and re-instate the Faith Militant were any good? With threat of violence and coercion, possibly :dunno: The current HS had as little chance to get appointed as anyone else did and he was intelligent enough to convince Cersei she was getting what she wanted

There are too many unforeseen and uncontrollable variables to make it a viable plan. Howland would not consider heading south with such a sketchy plan. More than likely, but we don't know much about HR. Meera and Jojen go on a journey with unforeseen and uncontrollable variables too and HR let them go even though he would possibly lose the continuation of his House. That's as much a sketchy plan as travelling to KL. Possible Green dream showing the end of House Reed prompted them to act, IDK Jojen was always pretty fatalistic

I think the High Sparrow was just a charismatic out-spoken guy in the right place at the time and made the most of the opportunities that arose. Also extremely likely I won't deny that

Ideas thrown into the quote box :wideeyed:

[Chebyshov]

The age thing is enough for me. A man in his 30s would not be described as "an old man and frail" in the Appendix.

Oh, and Howland doesn't have green-dreams, as confirmed by Meera in the KOTLT story.

Also, this thread reminds me of this.

[Runs With Direwolves]

The age thing is enough for me. A man in his 30s would not be described as "an old man and frail" in the Appendix.

Oh, and Howland doesn't have green-dreams, as confirmed by Meera in the KOTLT story.

Also, this thread reminds me of this.

For arguments sake I'll say Jojen had the green dream lol I did say crackpot.

Cant look up your link due to work PC

[Clariana]

There is almost no significant textual evidence backing up this theory. The basic evidence for HR = HS is that they are both small, hairy, go barefoot (actually we don't even know that HR went barefoot), and wear their hair in knots, but wait... Whereas HS does wear his hair in a knot, we don't even know that HR does, Meera wears her hair in a knot and she's HR's daughter so he must wear his hair in a knot too!... This is all so flimsy as to be negligible.

What we do know about HR and HS is that they both have an almost opposite approach to religion... HR practices a nature based religion, no temples, no clergy, no hierarchy, and, one imagines, no written doctrine, whereas the religion of the seven is highly institutionalised and highly organised, book-based and extremely hierarchical.

Yes, HS is recorded as going to the Island of Faces to familiarize himself with another culture but I would argue that it is similar to his own. Certainly it is a nature-based religion not book/city based one as is the Sept.

From ASoIaF wiki:

"The crannogmen are so called for their habit of living in small villages formed of reeds and thatch that sit atop floating islands in the mire (crannogs). They are a poor people and seldom leave their lands, subsisting on fishing and frogging.

They are talented hunters and warriors and despite their short stature and somewhat primitive lifestyle, the crannogmen have proven a notoriously difficult people to conquer. They use nets, bronze knives, frog spears, and round leather shields. They fight with poison, guerrilla tactics, and a mastery of their difficult terrain. According to those who have fought them, their houses, even their castles, move. They are disparaged as "frog-eaters, swamp-dwellers, mud-men and bog devils" by most other people of the Seven Kingdoms, and are looked down upon for their tactics, which are viewed as cowardly.

The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.They swore oaths of fealty to the Starks thousands of years ago, when the King in the North defeated the Marsh King and took his daughter as wife. They are ruled by House Reed from Greywater Watch."

Howard may even be illiterate in the Common Tongue. I was using as grounds for this Jojen's recounting of the events at Harrenhal which apppears to be from HR POV:

"The crannogman had never seen such pagentry... This was their world... There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him and he pup who was the youngest of the four."

This is a unique narrative POV, delivered by an outsider someone who has very little knowledge of the new culture he is confronting. Unfamiliarity is not the same as ignorance, BTW.

I would further point out that when Meera narrates the events at Harranhal she seems to be repeating what her father says word for word, the narrative is extremely naive

Additionally, there are the letters sent by Robb via Greywater Watch and addressed, to "Those lords of mine who remain in the north..." all well and good, but then Robb turns to the two messengers, Galbert Glover and Maege Mormont, and says "Tell Howland Reed..."

I would say, therefore, that taken overall, the above strongly indicates that HR would not be capable of fully grasping the doctrinal intricacies, premises or theology of the creed of the seven, let alone excelling in his knowledge of it as the HS would need to do to oversee Cersei’s trial and incarceration or to get to the position of High Septon, simply because his cultural background is so vastly different.

It should be further noted that fAegon has been personally instructed by a septa for most of his life in order to become familiar with this religion.

If HR wished to participate actively in the social/political events of Westeros, and everything suggests he doesn't, the very last thing we would do or be capable of is impersonating the highest authority in a very highly structured cultural institution as is the sept.