Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[pobeb]

I can't cite or paste right now but in Barristan's chapter he makes a rather long comparison of Quentyn to mud.

"She wants fire and Dorne sends her mud," is how it goes.

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 59

To me, a comparison with something so simple as "mud" isn't that great of a connection or proof. Mud is a very common thing. If it was maybe a specialized type of mud (sort of like how Arbor Gold means a lie and not just wine) I might consider an eye description as proof but honestly I think it's just a way to say "his eyes are brown."

Couple it to his son's eyes being "green as moss"

eyes like mud, eyes like moss

Maybe it's a coincidence, but both pairs of eyes are described to the land in the Neck

[Game Of Thrones]

I can't cite or paste right now but in Barristan's chapter he makes a rather long comparison of Quentyn to mud.

"She wants fire and Dorne sends her mud," is how it goes.

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 59

To me, a comparison with something so simple as "mud" isn't that great of a connection or proof. Mud is a very common thing. If it was maybe a specialized type of mud (sort of like how Arbor Gold means a lie and not just wine) I might consider an eye description as proof but honestly I think it's just a way to say "his eyes are brown."

Barristan goes on for about 5 lines about how mud is literally better than fire, like 'mud feeds you' 'fire kills you'.

[LordStoneheart]

Couple it to his son's eyes being "green as moss"

eyes like mud, eyes like moss

Maybe it's a coincidence, but both pairs of eyes are described to the land in the Neck

On the other end of that spectrum, Darkstar and Ashara's eyes, both purple. Dany and Viserys, purple. Correlation? None. I believe GRRM has even said the eye color focus annoys him.

I could be wrong, you could be right. Time will tell. I just think these details are easier explained as coincidence.

[three-eyed monkey]

I think GRRM is subtly selective when it comes to description. It's one of the things I admire about his style. For example, Dagmar's eyes are described as white as foam, as opposed to white as snow or chalk or anything else, foam being far more fitting for Ironborn. To be fair to the debate, I would add that the description obviously depends on the pov, Theon in Dagmar's case.

Maybe Barristan's description of Quentyn being mud is a reflection of his alias as Frog?

[Lady Woodland]

Howland Reed is not the High Sparrow . The High Sparrow is just another apocalyptic holy men that appear in times of trouble. If Reed was the High Sparrow 1st, he would have had to pick up enough information about the Seven to fool a true devotee and do that in a year .2nd must manipulate the people in order that they choose to make him the High Septon .

I'd like to hear how you believe this would serve the plot if he is truly a random septon, what is his purpose then?

I'm curious who you believe is the "true devotee" please don't say Cersei I will ROFL.

It's easy to manipulate people if you are giving them an alternative to an unpopular ruling class, religion is a devious but effective tool & people are brainwashed with it every day.

[Lady Woodland]

That's bullshit

Wow really outdid yourself with this insightful argument.

[Lady Woodland]

Do House Wells follow the New Gods? If so, could Ser Theodan have tutored HR in the basics of the faith of the 7 on the road to KL? Where was Ser Theodan during the Wot5K?

I particularly like the links made to the Mormont women and the septas, also the parallels between the Northmen and sparrows. Very enjoyable read and well presented. I don't know if it is possible but I do believe that HR could have mobilized a crowd of North/Crannogmen and taken advantage of the mob mentality on the way to KL. I'm no expert on the Fot7 but I believe that the common folk, who possibly cannot read or write and have only been told their faith literature by Septons, could be coerced/persuaded into a crusade.

Look at the parallels with the Catholic Church, everything was written in Latin at a time when majority of the followers were illiterate. The church had control over the common folk much the same as the Fot7 has in Westeros. If someone starts campaigning against injustice and can rhyme off the 7 Gods and their purposes, why would you not believe they are a New God follower? Hell, there were plenty of crusades into the Holy Lands lead by literate men with a massive levy of illiterate men at arms, doing what was ordered by the Head of the Church.

Once the double agent is at the head of the movement they become very difficult to remove and any suspicion of foul play would cause a massive revolt.

Oh and I'm 28 and have 50% gray hair coverage(back and sides) :wideeyed: so by mid 30's I would expect to be totally gray. I don't buy the gray hair proves it can't be HR. I'm still very much unconvinced by the counterarguments but I would like to see more debate on the matter.

Good post Run with Direwolves, a thoughtfully considered opinion which weighs up the arguments for & against.

I agree this theory is fairly slim but I think there's enough textual links to make a good debate, I would like to congratulate POBEB on the time & effort in putting this theory together for a second itineration of this thread. Kudo's also to the significant contributors & initial posters Roadside Rose & Smoove, I would love to see some really constructive comments discussing the pro's & cons of the theory.

"I don't like it", "its stupid" or harping on about a possible age variance or "why/how could HR manage the subterfuge of posing as a Septon" is pretty lame.

[RedShirt47]

Seven Reasons why I think HR =/= HS.

1. The age.
- This has been covered enough so far. But grey hair does not equal old. The description of the man as "Old" is not just that his hair is grey. Lemore is descibed as in her middle years or some such. At best HR would be described as such but they call HS old.

2. What is the "Why?" for this whole plot?
- Because of Ned's fate? Joffrey is dead and LF is no longer in KL.
- Because of the RW? The Boltons are in WF and The Freys at the The Twins. Tywin is dead.
- To put Jon on the throne? This would be served much better by sorting out the North first.
- To hurt The Lannisters? Well, The Tyrells seem to be just as big a target and why would HR want to hurt them?

3. HR is not a torturing fanatic.
- The High Septon has tortured a bard, a Knight and others. He has forced a woman to walk naked through crowded streets shaming her. He has imprisoned others. This is not a disguise or play acting. These cruel nasty things have been done for real. You may not like some of the people he's done these things to but that does not excuse torture.

4. Storyline.
- HR is deeply embedded the story of The North. He is a big supporter of The Starks. Ned's remains are likely at Greywater Watch. Glover and Mormont have taken Robb's Will to GW. The details of the GNC may be vague just now but there is something afoot in the North and to think that HR would not be a major part of that seems odd.
For HR to head south on some vengence quest instead of doing something constructive in the North to restore a Stark would be strange story-telling.

5. Surely somebody would recognise HR?
- He used to attend courtly functions. He was at the tourney of Harrenhal. Probably not the only tourney or event he attended. I know it's been 15 years but to think that nobody in KL would recognise him seems a stretch.

6. The Plan itself is a huge gamble.
- To just decide to go south and hope that he could gather a rabble, control it, get it to King's Landing without running into an organised army (in a time of war with armies in the field), in the hope that the existing HS would be removed and that he could somehow get the position and get the faith armed is a plan with a lot of unforeseeable and uncontrolable variables. Chances of it working would be so small as to make it a suicide mission.

7. occam's razor.
- The simplest answer here is that some religous fanatic has gathered a mob. Varys has somehow managed to take advantage of them.

[Clariana]

Seven Reasons why I think HR =/= HS.

1. The age.

- This has been covered enough so far. But grey hair does not equal old. The description of the man as "Old" is not just that his hair is grey. Lemore is descibed as in her middle years or some such. At best HR would be described as such but they call HS old.

2. What is the "Why?" for this whole plot?

- Because of Ned's fate? Joffrey is dead and LF is no longer in KL.

- Because of the RW? The Boltons are in WF and The Freys at the The Twins. Tywin is dead.

- To put Jon on the throne? This would be served much better by sorting out the North first.

- To hurt The Lannisters? Well, The Tyrells seem to be just as big a target and why would HR want to hurt them?

3. HR is not a torturing fanatic.

- The High Septon has tortured a bard, a Knight and others. He has forced a woman to walk naked through crowded streets shaming her. He has imprisoned others. This is not a disguise or play acting. These cruel nasty things have been done for real. You may not like some of the people he's done these things to but that does not excuse torture.

4. Storyline.

- HR is deeply embedded the story of The North. He is a big supporter of The Starks. Ned's remains are likely at Greywater Watch. Glover and Mormont have taken Robb's Will to GW. The details of the GNC may be vague just now but there is something afoot in the North and to think that HR would not be a major part of that seems odd.

For HR to head south on some vengence quest instead of doing something constructive in the North to restore a Stark would be strange story-telling.

5. Surely somebody would recognise HR?

- He used to attend courtly functions. He was at the tourney of Harrenhal. Probably not the only tourney or event he attended. I know it's been 15 years but to think that nobody in KL would recognise him seems a stretch.

6. The Plan itself is a huge gamble.

- To just decide to go south and hope that he could gather a rabble, control it, get it to King's Landing without running into an organised army (in a time of war with armies in the field), in the hope that the existing HS would be removed and that he could somehow get the position and get the faith armed is a plan with a lot of unforeseeable and uncontrolable variables. Chances of it working would be so small as to make it a suicide mission.

7. occam's razor.

- The simplest answer here is that some religous fanatic has gathered a mob. Varys has somehow managed to take advantage of them.

Just to add to the above:

8. Howland Reed comes from a too diverse cultural background to able to successfully impersonate a septon, let alone the High Septon for a significant amount of time.

[three-eyed monkey]

Seven Reasons why I think HR =/= HS.

1. The age.

- This has been covered enough so far. But grey hair does not equal old. The description of the man as "Old" is not just that his hair is grey. Lemore is descibed as in her middle years or some such. At best HR would be described as such but they call HS old.

2. What is the "Why?" for this whole plot?

- Because of Ned's fate? Joffrey is dead and LF is no longer in KL.

- Because of the RW? The Boltons are in WF and The Freys at the The Twins. Tywin is dead.

- To put Jon on the throne? This would be served much better by sorting out the North first.

- To hurt The Lannisters? Well, The Tyrells seem to be just as big a target and why would HR want to hurt them?

3. HR is not a torturing fanatic.

- The High Septon has tortured a bard, a Knight and others. He has forced a woman to walk naked through crowded streets shaming her. He has imprisoned others. This is not a disguise or play acting. These cruel nasty things have been done for real. You may not like some of the people he's done these things to but that does not excuse torture.

4. Storyline.

- HR is deeply embedded the story of The North. He is a big supporter of The Starks. Ned's remains are likely at Greywater Watch. Glover and Mormont have taken Robb's Will to GW. The details of the GNC may be vague just now but there is something afoot in the North and to think that HR would not be a major part of that seems odd.

For HR to head south on some vengence quest instead of doing something constructive in the North to restore a Stark would be strange story-telling.

5. Surely somebody would recognise HR?

- He used to attend courtly functions. He was at the tourney of Harrenhal. Probably not the only tourney or event he attended. I know it's been 15 years but to think that nobody in KL would recognise him seems a stretch.

6. The Plan itself is a huge gamble.

- To just decide to go south and hope that he could gather a rabble, control it, get it to King's Landing without running into an organised army (in a time of war with armies in the field), in the hope that the existing HS would be removed and that he could somehow get the position and get the faith armed is a plan with a lot of unforeseeable and uncontrolable variables. Chances of it working would be so small as to make it a suicide mission.

7. occam's razor.

- The simplest answer here is that some religous fanatic has gathered a mob. Varys has somehow managed to take advantage of them.

1. They describe the HS as old? Who's they? Cersei describes the HS as old. She also described Jaime, her twin, as looking like an old man. Cersei is deluded. She also thinks that doing away with Maegor's Law was a master stroke, but that does not mean it was. The age argument is not strong enough to dissuade me, sorry. Leaning on a misinterpretation of the appendix and the HBO casting just shows how weak the argument is. The Sparrow's description in the books, grey hair, lined face, grizzled grey-brown beard, fits a man in his mid to late forties. HR is mid to late thirties. We have seen characters in the book look ten years older than they are, just like real life, Jon's description of Stannis as quoted above being a prime example.

2. Why? There are a number of why's but it is not yet clear what the HS wants, other than to dethrone Tommen perhaps. As this point overlaps with point 4 I will return to it below.

3. HR is not a torturing fanatic. Citation please? The Crannogmen fight with poison arrows. Do you think the Ironmen in Moat Caitlin had nice clean deaths?

4. Sworn to the Starks, yes. Deeply embedded in the story of the North? I'm not so sure. Even if he is connected to the story of the North, then attacking the crown with whom the North is at war does make sense to me. But I believe that Howland is more connected to the song of ice and fire than he is with the game of thrones. His children have led Bran to the TEC and CotF. He has visited the Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces. He was present at the ToJ, where a leading contender for TPwwP was born. I would say he's deeply embedded in the song of ice and fire theme.

5. He used to attend courtly functions? Did he? Remind me please, I must have missed that part. He was at the tourney in Harrenhal, and he rode with Ned to the ToJ. What other tourneys did he "probably" attend? Who would recognise him?

6. I agree that the plan is a huge gamble. Most ambitious plans are. But Meera describes her father as bold, and it takes bold men to take such risks. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Littlefinger's plans are ambitious, Varys and Illyrio's plans are ambitious, and of course there is risk involved, but then is the difference between being a player and a piece. However, just because there is risk involved does not invalidate the plan. The Sparrow's plan is a huge gamble, regardless of whether he is HR or just a wandering Septon.

7. It is possible that the HS is a religous fanatic but I don't buy for a minute that he is Varys' puppet, because I don't think his actions serve Varys' plot. I've discussed this on another thread so I won't go into it here. As for Occam's Razor, while simplicity is a good policy for fiction writers in some regards, it is not in others, because the simplest solution can be quite obvious and that does not allow so much for twists in the story, and GRRM likes his twists.

Just to add to the above:

8. Howland Reed comes from a too diverse cultural background to able to successfully impersonate a septon, let alone the High Septon for a significant amount of time.

8. I think this is a particularly weak argument. I addressed your point in more detail a few pages back. In short, the Neck is not the Amazon, the parallel you drew. Andal culture has been in Westeros a long time. The HS does not display any deep knowledge of the Faith, just the basics. He did not sit theology exams to get his position, he took it by force. There is no indication that HR is illiterate. Some acolytes in the citadel have forged a link in their chain in six months, and I doubt that gaining the level of knowledge of the Faith that the HS has thus far displayed would be more difficult than that.

[Ziriath]

I can't cite or paste right now but in Barristan's chapter he makes a rather long comparison of Quentyn to mud.

"She wants fire and Dorne sends her mud," is how it goes.

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 59

To me, a comparison with something so simple as "mud" isn't that great of a connection or proof. Mud is a very common thing. If it was maybe a specialized type of mud (sort of like how Arbor Gold means a lie and not just wine) I might consider an eye description as proof but honestly I think it's just a way to say "his eyes are brown."

And the axe 'proof' as well....I'd say in every westerosi inhabited house is at least one axe. It's hard to imagine for many people in this world, at least the ones who have central heating, but without an axe one would freeze to death in winter or be easily killed in an attack of whatever.. I have an axe at my bed and several other axes for wood at summer house, yet I do not feel any special.

[Clariana]

8. I think this is a particularly weak argument. I addressed your point in more detail a few pages back. In short, the Neck is not the Amazon, the parallel you drew. Andal culture has been in Westeros a long time. The HS does not display any deep knowledge of the Faith, just the basics. He did not sit theology exams to get his position, he took it by force. There is no indication that HR is illiterate. Some acolytes in the citadel have forged a link in their chain in six months, and I doubt that gaining the level of knowledge of the Faith that the HS has thus far displayed would be more difficult than that.

The neck may not be the Amazon but the crannogmen have lived apart from the rest of Westeros by choice for centuries and their culture is acknowledged as more primitive in comparison, for example they use mostly copper for metalwork, do not build with stone and their boats are made of leather rather than shaped wood.

How do you know what the HS knowledge of the faith is? We don't have his backstory. However, he is putting the highest authorities in the land on trial and convicting them... He must be able to do so wielding a convincing knowledge of the faith its history and canon law it is ridiculous to say that the High Sparrow needs just the basics.

And I refuted your argument about the citadel by pointing out that Sarella/Arellas had already received a thorough education, as Oberyn's bastard daughter before she even got there so it unsurprising she is making good headway (and in any event, if you read carefully, the Sphinx is an exceptionally gifted student, and thus a poor comparator for your purposes). Further, Sarella is a member of Westeros' main culture in which has been bought up since birth.

As a counterpoint to your weak argument I would indicate that Lemore has been educating fAegon in the faith since he was an infant, if a working knowledge of the faith were so easy to acquire, why would this be the case? And fAegon is expected to become merely a secular leader not the head of the faith.

You obviously have no idea what it is like to move into one culture from another with no, or only very limited, knowledge of the language, social set up or faith, I do.

[Lord Defiance]

I love this theory, and want it to happen so badly.

But at the same time, part of me believes it's not going to happen. Maybe some of the Northern people snuck into the holy sept and are posing as septas to screw with the Lannisters, but I don't believe Howland Reed is the High Sparrow.

[pobeb]

You obviously have no idea what it is like to move into one culture from another with no, or only very limited, knowledge of the language, social set up or faith, I do.

It's fine for you to argue your point, but please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you.

[pobeb]

Howland taught Meera to fight with a net

Meera traps Summer in a net:

"Thrashing and growling at the net, Summer was only ensnaring himself worse."

The High Septon ensnares Ceresei in his trap, and her thrashing and yelling only makes her situation worse.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's fine for you to argue your point, but please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you.

Do you know what it's like "to move into one culture from another with no, or only very limited, knowledge of the language, social set up or faith?"

[three-eyed monkey]

1. They describe the HS as old? Who's they? Cersei describes the HS as old. She also described Jaime, her twin, as looking like an old man.

Sorry, correction. It was not Cersei who described Jaime as looking like an old man, it was Jaime.

Quote:

The servants had bathed him, shaved him, and washed and brushed his hair. When he looked in a glass, he no longer saw the man who had crossed the riverlands with Brienne... but he did not see himself either. His face was thin and hollow, and he had lines under his eyes. I look like some old man.

Another quote from the same chapter, this time Ser Balon Swann.

"My father is an old man, my lord. Well past forty."

Well past forty, but not past fifty or surely Ser Balon would have said past fifty. So Ser Balon considers his own father, a man in his forties, to be an old man. Granted, Balon Swann is probably in his twenties or very early thirties. Cersei is 34 or 35, although she probably sees herself a lot younger in her mind's eye, so is it really a surprise that she would consider a man whose description fits that of a man in his mid to late forties to be an old man? I don't think so.

[willofDorne]

I'm finding it kind of ridiculous that people are dismissing Howland Reed as someone who keeps to the Old Gods and could never impersonate a High Septon. Howland Reed has been a bit of a recluse, and a noble recluse at that. Or what can also be described as a hermit, one who ventures forth only on quests or at times of war. So that gives him a lot of time to study. The Neck is also pretty far South, so it's not out of the question that he may have studied the Seven quite extensively. We know for a fact that the tournament at Harrenhal was very influential to him. How do we know this? He told the story to his children countless times. People that are doubting this theory really have no idea what the difference in education is for a noble man compared to a common person. Ned Stark of Winterfell owns books on Targaryen heritage and he's NOT a Targaryen, nor has anyone in his family ever owned a dragon. (Tyrion actually effectively steals this book, I think, or "borrow it", Dragons and their Properties) I am sure a Noble man, even of an area like the Neck, has plenty of books and some of them doubtless books on the Seven. If someone wanted to impersonate the Seven, few would be in as good a position as Howland Reed. And once he's gone on a mission to do blessings among common people, his knowledge and experience would probably surpass many just by the amount of education he has access to. He has the means, and the motive.

[WeirWolfWeirCastle]

Does anyone else think that having a big name actor like Jonathan Pryce might give some credence to this theory? I have never looked at the show for clues, but now that the show is almost caught up to the books, I'm starting to think that there may be more clues and this might be one of them. The fact that they are having a big name actor play the role of someone who had a somewhat important, but minor role makes me think that this character could be come integral to the story, mainly in the North's revenge and R+L=J.

[three-eyed monkey]

You obviously have no idea what it is like to move into one culture from another with no, or only very limited, knowledge of the language, social set up or faith, I do.

And again, what is obvious to you is in fact incorrect.

Edit: That said, we have a difference of opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. The boards would be pretty stale without it. I do respect your opinion and hope I have not caused you offence. I hope you realise I was only attacking your argument and not you. Apologies if I gave you reason to think otherwise. Cheers.