Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[Bail o' Lies]

Still, one misstep, one mistake is all it'll take. He will be under constant scrutiny and pressure.

I going to keep this simple but I'm going to make a guess on how they would scrutinize/pressure a High Septon in order to get one out of office other than by death.

Well since normally The High Septon is elected from among the Most Devout a council of the highest ranking Clergy in the Faith. If I were to guess they may have the ability/rule/law that allows them to remove a High Septon from office if he breaks a certain tenants of the faith. We have heard nothing of them having this power so this is me saying if they did. If they did than it would probably require a majority of the Most Devout in order to remove the HS from office. So what has this Sparrow been doing to them since he gotten in to office? He has basically cowed them into submission by intimidation, shamming, or fundamentalizing them.

Here are the Most Devout we know of (got off the wiki):

Torbert use to kiss Cersei feet when ever he saw her. He was locked in a penance cell for being too fat (intimidation/shamming)

Ollidor was originally the front runner in becoming the next HS until the sparrows found him in a brothel, and dragged him naked into the street.(shamming)

Moelle, Aglantine, Helicent, Unella are septas that are part of the Most Devout, and are in charge of watching over the queens (fundamentalist).

Luceon Frey hasn't been mention since the election.

Raynard frequently visited the brothels, was sent by the High Sparrow to tell Cersei the sinfulness of brothels (by this time it seems that the HS has been able to cow/fundamentalize most of the Most Devout)

Those are the ones we know of so even if they could remove them he has already dealt with that problem by the time he arrested Cersei.

[pobeb]

There is almost no significant textual evidence backing up this theory.

Do you want this argument added to the list under the OP?

The basic evidence for HR = HS is that they are both small, hairy, go barefoot (actually we don't even know that HR went barefoot), and wear their hair in knots, but wait... Whereas HS does wear his hair in a knot, we don't even know that HR does, Meera wears her hair in a knot and she's HR's daughter so he must wear his hair in a knot too!... This is all so flimsy as to be negligible.

But, this isn't the only evidence in favor. Here are some things you're not addressing:

- She-Bear septas

- axe-wielding, shaggy, duskendale-hating, cold-resilient sparrows

- Theodan Wells

- the Faith Militant's symbol being Jon (Lightbringer)

- eyes as brown as "mud"

- "greengrocer"

- Hermit's Hole

Howard may even be illiterate in the Common Tongue.

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest here, but Meribald is also illiterate and has a vast knowledge of the Faith of Seven.

Yes, HS is recorded as going to the Island of Faces to familiarize himself with another culture but I would argue that it is similar to his own. Certainly it is a nature-based religion not book/city based one as is the Sept.

You just admitted the possibility that Howland could familiarize himself with a different culture, then you assert that it is impossible for him to familiarize himself with the culture of the Seven. When you try and twist the idea to fit your agenda, you will inevitably run into fallacies in logic, just like this, or just like your assumption that illiterates can't learn the Faith - proven wrong via Meribald.

From ASoIaF wiki:

The one thing I find just as detrimental as not quoting from the source text, is quoting directly from the wiki.

[pobeb]

The age thing is enough for me. A man in his 30s would not be described as "an old man and frail" in the Appendix.

Theon - Reek

Circumstances aside, you can see that there is obvious precedent for a man to look considerably older than he actually is.

The obvious counter is "Well, Theon was tortured", but it's not the "torture" which ages someone - it is specifically the stress induced.

So the question becomes - Could Howland have suffered enough stress that he would age so much?

This can't be answered definitively, but we can all agree that there is precedent for characters looking older than they are - here are a few off the top of my head:

-Theon Greyjoy

-Robbet Glover

-Thoros of Myr

-Jaime Lannister

-Ned Stark

And, interestingly, most all of these are characters which were aged by the trials of war.

[barristan-b]

It's damn intriguing but the age thing gets me.

If true, maybe this is his plan to overthrow the Seven as the dominant religion and make the Old Gods worshiped throughout the realm. Infiltrate and overthrow from within then bring Jon Stargaryen to power.

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

just some feedback and thoughts

i really like this theory, although if its true the lack of surprise when its revealed will hurt.

about all the description of HS being old and HR being in his 30s, LF is noted to be in his thirties with a streak of gray in his hair. other than his botched duel, not much of a stressful life it seems to cause this weathering. and without doing a textual search, im fairly certain several other characters of younger age are noted to have gray. HR lives in a freaking swamp after surviving a rebellion war and epic battle with the kings guard. i can see him aging a bit harder than most.

his knowledge of the faith is really easy to explain. hes not an idiot. you know what im not? catholic. i can still quote scripture and give a general synopsis of it, and thats with limited intelligence and i havent been travelling for a year on the road with nothing better to do than educate myself on how to be catholic. apple to oranges, but thankfully theyre both made up religions!

i also feel like an idiot for not picking up on the description of the sparrows as a whole which screams northerners.

im working on re-read number-idontknow, so when i get to books 4 and 5, im curious to see if ax comes up more than sword. thats more of a personal note.

[Clariana]

But, this isn't the only evidence in favor. Here are some things you're not addressing:

- She-Bear septas

- axe-wielding, shaggy, duskendale-hating, cold-resilient sparrows

- Theodan Wells

- the Faith Militant's symbol being Jon (Lightbringer)

- eyes as brown as "mud"

- "greengrocer"

- Hermit's Hole

She bear women... They're just big, peasant women, you'll find lots of them around. There are more than a handful of large women in the world, you know, some of them even have hard hands, that doesn't mean they all come from bear island.

Axe-wielding, shaggy... Axes are a peasant weapon because they don't require much smelting or technology to manufacture as compared to a sword. You can make an axe with a flint. So axes are the most commonly used weapon among poor people.

The peasants are shaggy because they don't shave! What a surprise! Shaving requires a very sharp edge (expensive) and a reflective surface, again expensive. Impoverished peasants don't tend to have easy access to these things.

Many of the sparrows are from the north because the north lost the war, they feel disenfranchised unrepresented a religious rebellion is just another way of assuaging that anger and loss.

Again the sparrows are resilient because they are survivors, they have survived a war famine and probably being deprived of a roof over their heads. They're also as mad a hell about it, the sparrow movement is fuelled by anger and resentment.

My eyes are as brown as mud! So are many other people's, so what?

You are simply grasping at odd words here and there and erecting this entire extremely poor, extremely rickety theory on this very weak foundation.

And you criticize me for quoting from the wiki?

[Clariana]

his knowledge of the faith is really easy to explain. hes not an idiot. you know what im not? catholic. i can still quote scripture and give a general synopsis of it, and thats with limited intelligence and i havent been travelling for a year on the road with nothing better to do than educate myself on how to be catholic. apple to oranges, but thankfully theyre both made up religions!

And HR isn't an idiot either, just from a very different culture.

Yes but this is because you can read a Western language and you come from a Christian background, you grew up with the bible as did I but try to imagine what you would make of it if you hadn't... If say, you were an Amazonian tribesperson with no prior contact with Christianity.

HR comes from a culture that is totally apart and totally alienated from that which prevails in the rest of Westeros, he might well be a genius but there is no way he could pass himself off as a septon let alone as the HS.

[A Bastard Snow]

And HR isn't an idiot either, just from a very different culture.

Yes but this is because you can read a Western language and you come from a Christian background, you grew up with the bible as did I but try to imagine what you would make of it if you hadn't... If say, you were an Amazonian tribesperson with no prior contact with Christianity.

HR comes from a culture that is totally apart and totally alienated from that which prevails in the rest of Westeros, he might well be a genius but there is no way he could pass himself off as a septon let alone as the HS.

He never pretends to be a HS.The reason he is so popular is because he acts like a common person.He sells a buncha stuff to feed the poor and him and his followers dont live lavishly.

He showed up with armed men and it was pretty much hes the HS or else and since then he has won people over by just you know...doing nice things.

[Equilibrium]

Well not so different cultures, he knew about Seven, when you look at it morallity isn't that different and you can learn verses and then namedrop them in the conversation. Some of the greatest catholic preachers where illiterate and from region which religious presence was limited to some illiterate drunk parish priest, they just started preaching poverty, asceticism, peace and so on, which is subject of like all religions and now you can preach it from India to Iraq to Spain and people will get it.

Also, what is written in the post above.

[pobeb]

And you criticize me for quoting from the wiki?

Yes, because it led you to thinking Howland couldn't understand the faith as an illiterate - an argument I thoroughly debunked, and you conveniently didn't re-address, when I mentioned Septon Meribald.

Then there's this:

She bear women... They're just big, peasant women, you'll find lots of them around. There are more than a handful of large women in the world, you know, some of them even have hard hands, that doesn't mean they all come from bear island.

Oh? There's plenty of women around described in such a similar fashion?

Ok, I'm game, let's see the passages where other peasant women, or even septas, are described like this...

Wait, what's that? You can't find them?

Well, of course you can't - they don't exist.

The point is, you're once again making a claim rooted strictly in your opinion, without any textual evidence for support.

That's the big difference between my argument and your argument - I actually do my homework.

Again, I'm open to the idea that there are various other women described as similarly as the Septas and She-Bears, but I'm gonna hold out until you can support it with some actual source text - not just your wiki findings.

Shouldn't be hard, right? As you said, "you'll find lots of them around."

[three-eyed monkey]

I If say, you were an Amazonian tribesperson with no prior contact with Christianity.

HR comes from a culture that is totally apart and totally alienated from that which prevails in the rest of Westeros, he might well be a genius but there is no way he could pass himself off as a septon let alone as the HS.

To equate the Crannogmen and their contact with the Faith to Amazonian tribesmen with no prior contact with Christianity is just ridiculous. The Crannogmen and Andals are not cultures that have had no prior contact. They were at war for years and have lived together in relative harmony for even longer. We know that Howland has had contact with people who worship the Seven, like at the tourney in Harrenhal and during Robert's Rebellion. And remember, House Reed swear their oath to the Starks by bronze and iron, amongst other things, which is symbolic of both First Men and Andals.

Your assertion that Howland cannot read is unfounded as far as I can see. Unless you want to cite?

And the Sparrow did not gain his position by sitting theology exams. He took it by force. And he has thus far not demonstrated any deep knowledge of the theology of the Faith, just the basics, which he could have learned relatively quickly. As I said in the previous thread, in catholic terms he's not Thomas Aquinas, just someone who knows the Ten Commandments and a few more basics. Example, "Judge not, for judgement is the father's" or "May the maiden watch over this poor girl" or "In the seven pointed star it is written that all sins may be forgiven, but crimes must still be punished". Hardly deep theology. But again, if you want to cite I'm happy to stand corrected.

[Ser Ious Woodmont]

Didn't Howland get the task to lead his crannogmen in the Neck against the Ironborn? I thought he did, but I'm not sure.

Even if not, there were still Ironborn to fight, Freys to kill, fleeing Northman to save and a resistance to support.

Kind of a dick move for the ruler of the Neck to leave on what basically is a suicide mission.

Also, is this really the way to introduce the character of Howland Reed, storywise?

I hope we'll see HR in the Neck or somewhere closeby. Not in Kingslanding as a fundamentally religious man. I rather have Tyrion as a Targ, narratively speaking.

Throughout ASOIAF Howland is strongly connected with the North: the old gods, weirwood knight, being a Crannogman, a good friend of Ned, having Jojen a Greendreamer.

What I try to say is that to have HR as HS is something that is clashing with his built up image, to me narratively weird and it requires an incredibly elaborate and doomed to fail plan.

And not only is the idea of HR being the HS conflicting, it will also mean that an relatively new but powerful and interesting character as the HS is an act. Would GRRM really do all these things?

[three-eyed monkey]

Didn't Howland get the task to lead his crannogmen in the Neck against the Ironborn? I thought he did, but I'm not sure.

Even if not, there were still Ironborn to fight, Freys to kill, fleeing Northman to save and a resistance to support.

Kind of a dick move for the ruler of the Neck to leave on what basically is a suicide mission.

Also, is this really the way to introduce the character of Howland Reed, storywise?

I hope we'll see HR in the Neck or somewhere closeby. Not in Kingslanding as a fundamentally religious man. I rather have Tyrion as a Targ, narratively speaking.

Throughout ASOIAF Howland is strongly connected with the North: the old gods, weirwood knight, being a Crannogman, a good friend of Ned, having Jojen a Greendreamer.

What I try to say is that to have HR as HS is something that is clashing with his built up image, to me narratively weird and it requires an incredibly elaborate and doomed to fail plan.

And not only is the idea of HR being the HS conflicting, it will also mean that an relatively new but powerful and interesting character as the HS is an act. Would GRRM really do all these things?

Many people have argued that HR must have his priorities screwed up if he did take on this mission while the North still has so many enemies at large, but I'm not so sure.

The narrative surrounding Howland has been very much linked to the ice and fire theme, more so than the game of thrones theme in my opinion. He was present at the ToJ, where one of the leading contenders for TPwwP was born. His children helped Bran find the TEC and the CotF. He visited the Green Men on the Isle of Faces, and the Sacred Order of Green Men was established during the Pact between children and men. The Crannogmen were said to have grown close to the CotF. The Last Hero enlisted the help of the CotF in the fight against the Others, according to legend at least. They are also said to have provided dragonglass weapons for the Night's Watch. And the swords and stars of the Faith Militant, are very symbolic of Lightbringer. GRRM has said that the Green Men will become more prominent in the latter books, and the Green Men themselves are symbolic of spring. So I think there is plenty of narrative support for the theory, but that depends on how you interpret the narrative. Personally, I see the song of ice and fire superseding the game of thrones during the next book or two.

As it stands, winter has arrived, the Others seem to be on the verge of invading, the realm has been bled by the game of thrones and seems largely oblivious to the threat from beyond the Wall. Meanwhile, the PwwP is supposed to be the person that leads the realm in the battle, according to prophecy at least, but nobody knows he exists, except Howland. Granted, Jon is in a bad way currently, though I doubt HR could not have foreseen that.

For GRRM to introduce a character everyone is waiting to meet in this manner would be ambitious, from a writers point of view, but then again I think he is a very ambitious writer. I understand that many people will not see it this way, but I do think the theory is worth exploring.

[DraculaAD1972]

Fair enough but the torture that drove him insane, and he lost an eye in was not the High Septons work it was Qyburn's.

He is tortured a 2nd time, after Qyburn. He is whipped by the Faith - and goes insane as a result. Cersei describes his screams as he is whipped, safe to say it was this that broke his mind.

[JonSnow4President]

For arguments sake I'll say Jojen had the green dream lol I did say crackpot.

Cant look up your link due to work PC

A greendream? The same sort of greendream that left him clueless as to the real downfall at Winterfell?

[Theon_NoJoy]

Right up front, I really like the idea that HS=HR so clearly I'm biased to reading into it, the way I want it to be...

A couple of things: Jaime Lannister has done despicable things throughout the story yet is on a redemptive path. Theon Greyjoy, likewise. I'm pretty certain if this pans out we can be led to forgive High Septon Reed for flogging the Blue Bard and keeping Marg up at all hours... afterall, if Reed brought the Glover and Mormont bannermen Robb sent him into King's Landing in the guise of Sparrows, he is playing a very dangerous game, playing it for keeps and would need to be willing to see it through without suddenly having an attack of conscience part way through. Lets not forget... Ned's dead. Head on a spike in Kings Landing dead. Instead of marching his ass up to Winterfell and pledging to Robb, Howland sent his KIDS to pledge? That's weird. When Ned was killed the banners flocked to Robb, except Ned's closest friend? Dude doesn't follow standard operating procedure.

Doesn't one of the Reed kids, when talking to Bran, mention that Howland has a way with words, or is a very persuasive orator...memory failing on this. Research crew: engage!

Anyway, good work on presenting a very feasible read on what Howland Reed has been up to "off camera".

And for the record, after watching two Lannister weddings on HBO, I'm pretty sure I could be ordained in Westeros and knock one out in a pinch.

[jobmartell]

I understand the pros and cons of both sides of the theory, I for one like the idea of HR being under our noses for a while now. More so, I enjoy reading all theories, regardless of crackpottery, that don't come off as complete fact and with a level head in response to arguments aganist. Whatever comes from this debate, many should follow the example.

[pobeb]

Doesn't one of the Reed kids, when talking to Bran, mention that Howland has a way with words, or is a very persuasive orator...memory failing on this. Research crew: engage!

I think you mean this:

“Did he have green dreams like Jojen?”

“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

[Game Of Thrones]

There's a House Wells in Dorne too, btw. IMO Theodan's a Stony Dornishman.

[White Ravens]

Edit: Too sarcastic.