Michael Brown Shooting and Civil Unrest III

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Uh, do you think that police, simply by being police, should be denied their 5th amendment rights?

edit: Also, since he didn't submit a report, the recent SCOTUS ruling in Salinas v SomeStateICantRemember would indicate that his silence can be used as evidence against him, so there's that.

That's not what Salinas says. Salinas involved a case where a potential suspect, who was not in custody, began voluntarily responding to questions offered by the police, and then remained silent when asked a particular question. The police were allowed to use that silence because (1) the suspect had not asserted his right to silence and (2) he wasn't in police custody and therefore didn't have to be Mirandized and advised of his rights. As near as I can tell, there is zero application to whether this guy wrote a report.

Now, it's possible that this officer received a Garrity Warning from his superiors if they suspected that he was going to be investigated criminally for the shooting AND they were launching an investigative inquiry of their own. In that case, the officer can choose to remain silent on the issue, although his silence can (and should) be used against him in the administrative inquiry by his own department.

But honestly, it is highly suspicious that this guy never completed a report, as that is part of his normal and expected job functions. And if he did receive a Garrity Warning and invoked his 5th Amendment Right against self-incrimination, then he would NOT have told the Ferugen Police the details of the shooting incident and that would mean the Fergusen Police are just lying and full of shit when they're talking about the details of the shooting.

[Winter's Knight]

This really is mind-boggling.

Ferguson Police Waited 10 Days to Review Michael Brown Incident Report

Since Michael Brown was shot by Officer Darren Wilson on August 9, reporters have called for the release of the incident report Wilson would have filled out according to proper police procedure. But according to the document released to the ACLU, there is no real report. The incident report the Ferguson Police Department has on file has little more than the who, where and when of the shooting. It doesn't say what happened, it doesn't say how, and it wasn't even reviewed by a supervisor until 10 days after Michael Brown died. The report was given final approval on August 20.

...

At a press conference last week Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson released an incident report related to the robbery Brown was a suspect in, as well as video of the robbery. At the time, Jackson said that he wanted to hold on to the information but was pushed by transparency request, though media organizations actually wanted details of the shooting. Jackson later said that the robbery was unrelated to the shooting — Brown was stopped for walking in the street. Several people considered the selective release of information to be a character assassination, and Capt. Ron Johnson and Attorney General Eric Holder expressed their own concerns over the selective release of information.

t's clear now that Ferguson police knew then that they didn't have the incident report they were asked to release.

Sorry, forgot one more:

Why Ferguson Police Never Filed 'Incident Report

Police in Ferguson, Missouri, did not file an “incident report” on the fatal shooting of 19-year-old Michael Brown because they turned the case over to St. Louis County police almost immediately, the county prosecutor’s office tells NBC News.

[The Iceman of the North]

In the local newspaper today there was an article on how the police in Norway deal with people wielding knives (Ferguson is a hot topic here too). In essence it was explained that they usually do not bring guns (the police in Norway do not carry guns), and that they are trained to respond to knives using battons and pepper spray.

The only time a membe of the police has been killed by a knife was in 1957.

You're forgetting the incident in Northern Norway in 2010.

[aceluby]

http://imgur.com/gallery/l62iF

This has nothing to do with the Michael Brown shooting but the powell one.

I have a couple issues with this.

1) The 20 foot rule was with a holstered gun, not one already on the subject. He went into great detail about the time it took to unholster a gun and then completely ignored the fact that neither weapon was holstered.

2) There were 2 police officers and both came out knowing he had a knife, had committed a previous crime, and had weapons drawn. I'm still not sure why one could not have had a tazer pulled instead of his gun, while the other had a gun pulled just in case.

If this had been a single person, or had the weapons been holstered when the subject came within the 20 ft perimeter I would absolutely agree that what happened was unfortunate, but necessary. But that's not what happened and that long post doesn't justify that this was the absolutely best and only solution.

[eyenon15]

Is it established that Powell actually did have a knife?

When they first arrive they tell him "get your hands out of your pockets" repeatedly.

How big of a knife can you really carry while holding it in your pocket? Supposedly there was a woman who called and told them he had a knife in his pocket.

Was there indeed a knife?

[Larry of the Lawn]

About that whole, "police were really just helping Al Jazeera, not targeting them and their equipment" bullshit that parts of the media were complacently reporting.

A reporter from Info Wars has his camera running on the AJ crew in those now-famous shots as they are tear-gassed and shot with rubber bullets. There was no one else around them, just that news crew, and the "scary" black guy from Info Wars. They were purposely targeted by police.

Just what we need, another reason for InfoWars to feel targeted and paranoid. Look for the price of tinfoil to skyrocket in coming weeks.

But seriously, nothing coming out of Ferguson is giving anyone any reason to giive the police there the benefit of the doubt.

[Davos OnionKing]

Just what we need, another reason for InfoWars to feel targeted and paranoid. Look for the price of tinfoil to skyrocket in coming weeks.

But seriously, nothing coming out of Ferguson is giving anyone any reason to giive the police there the benefit of the doubt.

They have their problems no doubt, but they were there on the ground live-streaming and walking/talking with the protestors getting priceless footage as shown in the link above.

And yes, I suspect even their undies may be made of tinfoil.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Is it established that Powell actually did have a knife?

When they first arrive they tell him "get your hands out of your pockets" repeatedly.

How big of a knife can you really carry while holding it in your pocket? Supposedly there was a woman who called and told them he had a knife in his pocket.

Was there indeed a knife?

Again, I watched it on a 70 inch TV a few times and couldn't see anything. Either way, he did not have it up and raised in a cartoonish stabbing motion, like the police said. It's just another example of how they exaggerate, or out right lie about the threat.

Fucking assholes.

[Glaurung]

By coincidence, the local public radio here, the CBC, mentioned the fact that only once in Iceland has a suspect been shot and killed. I missed the context, whether it related to the next court appearance of the Toronto police officer who has been charged with murder after shooting a young man on a streetcar who had a knife, or if it was in the context of police shootings in general, or directly because of Ferguson. I then checked the population of Iceland and went looking at the list of the population of US cities on Wikipedia. Whether or not you want to look at suburbs, St. Louis itself has a population of 320,000.

If greater Reykjavik has a population of 200,000 (no surprise, most of the country is mountains, lake and rocks) how about looking at US cities with populations under 200,000? Little Rock, Salt Lake City, Tallahassee, Grand Rapids, Mobile, Glendale?

Look, I understand the major difference is the gun ownership, in the USA 90 per capita 100 versus 30 in Iceland. But just think about it. A country that in 2013 had their first police killing ever. Ever.

Those cities are pretty much all bigger. A better comparison would be places like Lawrence, KS, Boulder Colorado, Lincoln Nebraska, Boise Idaho, etc. Most of which have very low crime rates and police shootings are extremely rare. But it varies from area to area. A city of 150,000 in the upper midwest is going to have different rates of violence than say a city of 150,000 in Mississippi or California. Gun ownership isn't always a significant factor either, as some of the places in the US with the highest rates of gun ownership have fewer rates of gun violence. It depends more on population density and various demographics than it does on how many people own guns. For instance, police in South Dakota probably don't have much of a need if any to carry guns, despite the fact nearly everybody AND their dog has a gun. Where as New Jersey I would highly recomment cops to carry guns or at least have a unit available that czrries weapons, yet New Jersey has the 2nd lowest rate of gun ownership in the US.

I do agree that it is impressive that Iceland hasn't had a police shooting until 2013. The cops don't carry guns and they probably don't need to and I can imagine the crime rates are pretty low. But the population, culture, and demographics in Iceland are completely different. I wish the same could be true in the US, but it's not really conceivable here. I would like to see us do away with guns for rural cops and in small cities maybe have an emergency unit which can come in with firearms. I'm not sure it can work for medium and larger sized cities in the US though. At least not in every state.

[Glaurung]

Is it established that Powell actually did have a knife?

When they first arrive they tell him "get your hands out of your pockets" repeatedly.

How big of a knife can you really carry while holding it in your pocket? Supposedly there was a woman who called and told them he had a knife in his pocket.

Was there indeed a knife?

You can see it in his hand. Maybe it's not a knife, but he is carrying something. If it's a knife it's not a huge one(though it doesn't have to be a big knife to be threatening). I think though it's likely that it is a knife. Not that this justifies shooting him. He was walking towards the officer so I can understand why the officer would be scared, but he should have shown more restraint. As for why they didn't get the tasers out first, I don't know. My only guess is maybe they came out with guns held high because maybe other people were in danger and I think in a situation where somebody is wielding a weapon maybe police protocol is to use the guns in case they are needed to stop him from harming others. I'm not a cop though so I don't know what guidelines they go by in these situations.

[eyenon15]

You can see it in his hand. Maybe it's not a knife, but he is carrying something. If it's a knife it's not a huge one(though it doesn't have to be a big knife to be threatening). I think though it's likely that it is a knife. Not that this justifies shooting him. He was walking towards the officer so I can understand why the officer would be scared, but he should have shown more restraint. As for why they didn't get the tasers out first, I don't know. My only guess is maybe they came out with guns held high because maybe other people were in danger and I think in a situation where somebody is wielding a weapon maybe police protocol is to use the guns in case they are needed to stop him from harming others. I'm not a cop though so I don't know what guidelines they go by in these situations.

At what point in the video can an object be seen? Surely not from the beginning since his hands are in his pockets.

[awesome possum]

Ferguson PD: we hire people who beat children

In the city of St. Louis, the complaints against Boyd started rolling in nearly a decade ago, not long after he left the police academy. The St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department's internal affairs division investigated two allegations of physical abuse against children in 2004 and 2005 but did not sustain them, meaning that the investigation did not reveal sufficient evidence to support the allegations.

Internal affairs did sustain the third serious complaint against Boyd, however. In April 2006, Boyd got into an argument with 12-year-old Jerica Thornton while following the girl and her brother home from school, according to a judge's summary of the investigation.

After a verbal altercation turned physical, Boyd tackled the brother to the ground. When Jerica came to his aid, Boyd struck her in the head with his gun.

Boyd later claimed that he had pistol-whipped the girl "accidentally." Internal affairs disagreed, recommending that Boyd be dropped from the department's rolls.

But instead of firing him, in November 2006, the St. Louis police demoted Boyd to the status of a probationary police officer. They also apparently failed to give him additional supervision -- a mistake that would cost them.

The trouble started in April 2007, when a fight erupted outside Sumner High School and freshman Christopher Dixon took off running. He wasn't a part of the fight, but he was afraid he would be arrested anyway, according to his testimony in a deposition.

Responding to a call, Boyd came upon Dixon leaving the scene. He said in a deposition that he tried to detain Dixon, but he slipped and “inadvertently” hit the boy in the face with his handcuffs.

Dixon offered a different version of events. He claimed that as he left the scene, Boyd drove up in his car and pointed his gun. "Freeze, if you move, I’ll shoot," he shouted, according to Dixon. Boyd then left the car and suddenly whipped his gun across Dixon's nose and left eye.

"I moved my hand from my face," Dixon said. "I just saw blood just pouring out of my face."

When backup came, he overheard two other officers talking about Boyd as though the incident had "happened before or something."

"They just kept saying, 'Boyd again?'" Dixon said.

Doctor glued Dixon's nose back together and gave him stitches. Boyd resigned from the force.

"Just didn't feel like dealing with the red tape and bureaucracy," he said in the deposition, when asked why he resigned.

Just an all around classy force, that Ferguson PD.

[aceluby]

"Just didn't feel like dealing with the red tape and bureaucracy,"

Code words for, "I was having difficulty beating whoever I wanted for whatever reason"

[Glaurung]

At what point in the video can an object be seen? Surely not from the beginning since his hands are in his pockets.

He's got something in his hand, you can see it when he pulls his hands out of his pockets as the police pull up. Admittedly you can't see it in the video posted in this thread, but the CNN footage is clear enough that you can see it. Try this video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/08/21/ac-st-louis-shooting-video.cnn.html

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

He's got something in his hand, you can see it when he pulls his hands out of his pockets as the police pull up. Admittedly you can't see it in the video posted in this thread, but the CNN footage is clear enough that you can see it. Try this video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/08/21/ac-st-louis-shooting-video.cnn.html

OK, that's much cleaner. He has something, probably a small blade. But see, no raised knife, no lunge, cops lie like mother fuckers!

[drkt]

Has anyone ever thought, that a reasonable, law abiding citizen would have said " Yes sir, I will move to the sidewalk immediately!" Police Officers are at risk every time they are within 20 feet of a suspect. I hear too often that they should have super human training, senses, and focus. They have to enforce our laws, that in itself puts them around criminals and danger! I don't know what happened with MB, but I don't see how an officer seated in an SUV could reach out of his vehicle, grab a large person by his neck, pull him into his vehicle, unholster his weapon and fire. Find a 6'3 295 pound friend and try it! Our enforcement officers are not super human. More importantly, stop breaking the law!

[TerraPrime]

Has anyone ever thought, that a reasonable, law abiding citizen would have said " Yes sir, I will move to the sidewalk immediately!" Police Officers are at risk every time they are within 20 feet of a suspect. I hear too often that they should have super human training, senses, and focus. They have to enforce our laws, that in itself puts them around criminals and danger! I don't know what happened with MB, but I don't see how an officer seated in an SUV could reach out of his vehicle, grab a large person by his neck, pull him into his vehicle, unholster his weapon and fire. Find a 6'3 295 pound friend and try it! Our enforcement officers are not super human. More importantly, stop breaking the law!

Good lord. It's like you deliberately made an effort to not be informed.

But thanks for sharing your thoughts on this anyway.

[TerraPrime]

OK, that's much cleaner. He has something, probably a small blade. But see, no raised knife, no lunge, cops lie like mother fuckers!

It's not always about lying. At the heat of the moment, you are making snap judgements. Small movements can seem a lot more significant when you're looking for signs of aggression. I am willing to accept that the judgement was wrong due to adrenaline and fear, rather than the cops lying after the fact.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

It's not always about lying. At the heat of the moment, you are making snap judgements. Small movements can seem a lot more significant when you're looking for signs of aggression. I am willing to accept that the judgement was wrong due to adrenaline and fear, rather than the cops lying after the fact.

They clearly lied about the raised knife in a stabbing motion. They purposely exaggerated the circumstances to justify their actions.

I get the heat of the moment issue, but the deliberate altering of the facts afterwards is a lie and a coverup.

EDIT:

Also, there was no need to lie, at all. They could have said, "Earlier today, two officers, answering to a 911 call, confronted, shot and killed a man with a knife in his hands. The officers ordered him to drop the knife repeatedly, and he continued to approach the police, ignoring their orders. Once the suspect was close enough to be able to lunge, reach and strike an officer, the two responding officers made the correct split second decision to open fire."

See. It's that easy. This would be a truthful statement. It would have been justifiable, and people would likely understand. But they had to exaggerate the situation. Never forget, the cover up can be worse than the crime (not in this case, but I'm sure you get what I mean).

[drkt]

Good lord. It's like you deliberately made an effort to not be informed.

But thanks for sharing your thoughts on this anyway.