The Fate of the Greyjoys

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

What does it mean to "know" the books? Having read them? No one has a copy of TWOW obviously. All predictions are a form of fanfic, even mine. What we can go by, what I've written about and taught about extensively in my personal life, is characterization (& ASOIAF is all about the characters)-- I find that a much better predictor than your "foreshadowing," such as: Asha was backed against a tree in the fight outside Deepwood therefore she will get backed against the weirwood in the crofters village battle and ipsofacto count as a sacrifice that will resurrect Jon Snow at the wall who we don't even know is dead!?? Sorry for my bluntness but that sounds ludicrous & I literally LOLd.

or Sam is going to improve at archery from some person nobody remembers the name of and that's how Euron, who's been set up as a big threat, is soon to die? Um, no.

Damphair wants to serve God. He'd sooner another IB family take the primacy than be king himself.

As a writer, I understand very much what GRRM says when he talks about his characters and how sometimes they take on a life of their own and go places in the telling that you didn't conceive of. He has great affection for his creations. Even someone like VIc who I think will surprise people in TWOW. Or Theon who some think has no more purpose & is about to die. Those are poor readings of the text IMHO. I think characterization is a much better predictor than contrived foreshadowing & symbolism to make connections.

*And if Vic & Tyrion don't share a scene together the world will be worse for it.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yeah, Sam's not going to kill anyone, especially a dangerous warrior like Euron. That would be as unrealistic and cheesy as if Sam killed an Other. Never gonna happen. And if it did, the book would be a laughingstock, and certainly wouldn't be widely considered the best book of the series. Sam the Slayer. Yeah right.

Oh, is obsidian Euron's weakness as well?

[Lord Reaver]

That is not true, I like the Reader and Dagmer Cleftjaw, you just make that assumption with no evidence to back it up. Damphair is a religious fanatic with no known prophetic visions. As for Euron's children, bastards can't inherit and Theon has no known children,

This is the II we're talking about. Anyone can show up at Kingsmoot and claim the Seastone chair, bastards included.

[Mithras]

They all die, except Theon

This

[Game Of Thrones]

They all die.

[Mithras]

Oh, is obsidian Euron's weakness as well?

or a weirwood arrow in the eye

[John Doe]

He fears nothing.

He fears Euron.

[John Doe]

1) Asha attempts a rescue mission to get Theon to Torren Square, during the battle of ice.. She succeeds but dies in front of the weirwood. Her blood acts as a sacrifice, which Bran/Bloodraven uses to pay for Jon´s life.

2) Euron is killed in Oldtown by Sam

3) Victarion is roasted by Drogon

4) Aeron crowns himself as a priest-king, in an attempt to keep the old way, and is killed when bran drops a hammer of the waters on pyke.

5) Theon goes back to Iron Islands, where he is choosen king by a coalition of "progresive" ironborn (lead by reader and others) to kill the "Old Way". Ends up bending the knee for King Jon

6) He is succeeded by his bastard son.

No way :whip:

[John Doe]

I find that a much better predictor than your "foreshadowing," such as: Asha was backed against a tree in the fight outside Deepwood therefore she will get backed against the weirwood in the crofters village battle and ipsofacto count as a sacrifice that will resurrect Jon Snow at the wall who we don't even know is dead!?? Sorry for my bluntness but that sounds ludicrous & I literally LOLd.

or Sam is going to improve at archery from some person nobody remembers the name of and that's how Euron, who's been set up as a big threat, is soon to die? Um, no.

Damphair wants to serve God. He'd sooner another IB family take the primacy than be king himself.

:agree: :cheers:

[Slender Aimry Hill]

I think / hope something will come of the Captain's daughter's baby.

If Sam kills Euron I will probably go to have to go to rehab to be deWesterosified.

Completely uncertain about Asha - wouldn't be surprised to see her killed in battle, dead in childbirth, hand, or queen. Somewhat hope Ser Worm gets her in the end for hilarity value, though.

[Fire Eater]

What does it mean to "know" the books? Having read them? No one has a copy of TWOW obviously. All predictions are a form of fanfic, even mine. What we can go by, what I've written about and taught about extensively in my personal life, is characterization (& ASOIAF is all about the characters)-- I find that a much better predictor than your "foreshadowing," such as: Asha was backed against a tree in the fight outside Deepwood therefore she will get backed against the weirwood in the crofters village battle and ipsofacto count as a sacrifice that will resurrect Jon Snow at the wall who we don't even know is dead!?? Sorry for my bluntness but that sounds ludicrous & I literally LOLd.

Predictions aren't fanfic given they haven't been disproven, and they are supposed to be what happens inside the canon not outside. Also, may I remind you that people change. Characters have been known to do things when pushed to desperation and surprise us such as Ned making a false confession, Cat freeing Jaime, etc. Calling something "ludicrous" doesn't prove that you're right just that you're being disrespectful. and that you've descended to a form of arguing that we used when we were children, IMO. You could be more respectful Do you like it when others call your theories "ludicrous?"

or Sam is going to improve at archery from some person nobody remembers the name of and that's how Euron, who's been set up as a big threat, is soon to die? Um, no.

Alleras, I remember that name. Sam's archery skills have been given focus throughout AFfC, and I doubt that it is given that kind of attention unless it has an important role to play later in Sam's arc. Euron was just introduced in AFfC, and newly crowned kings tend to last no more than three books, and Euron dying in TWoW would not be out of place. Euron hasn't been set up as big threat. He sent his main strength, the Iron Fleet, away, and the longships are outmatched by Redwyne's dromonds.

I advise you visit the "Moments of Foreshadowing" foreshadowing threads starting with the first before you judge foreshadowing.

Damphair wants to serve God. He'd sooner another IB family take the primacy than be king himself.

As a writer, I understand very much what GRRM says when he talks about his characters and how sometimes they take on a life of their own and go places in the telling that you didn't conceive of. He has great affection for his creations. Even someone like VIc who I think will surprise people in TWOW. Or Theon who some think has no more purpose & is about to die. Those are poor readings of the text IMHO. I think characterization is a much better predictor than contrived foreshadowing & symbolism to make connections.

*And if Vic & Tyrion don't share a scene together the world will be worse for it.

Damphair cares about his House, and if someone like Reader would likely become the liege lord of the Iron Isles then I think Damphair would put himself as king.

Again, characters surprise us, and are not stagnant but changing. Jon is not the same person he was when we first met him, the same for Jaime, Arya, Sansa, etc. Damphair is already rebelling against the chosen king, and before he called a kingsmoot. He is taking an increasingly active role in the affairs of the Iron Isles and House Greyjoy. Could you have predicted based on characterization that Cat would free Jaime? That Jaime would send Brienne on a mission to protect Sansa who he believed killed his son atm? That Jaime will kill Cersei?

I never said Tyrion and Vic would never meet just that Victarion will die in Essos.

This is the II we're talking about. Anyone can show up at Kingsmoot and claim the Seastone chair, bastards included.

Except Euron's bastard sons are only kids, and I doubt the Ironmen will follow boys.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Alleras, I remember that name. Sam's archery skills have been given focus throughout AFfC, and I doubt that it is given that kind of attention unless it has an important role to play later in Sam's arc. Euron was just introduced in AFfC, and newly crowned kings tend to last no more than three books, and Euron dying in TWoW would not be out of place. Euron hasn't been set up as big threat. He sent his main strength, the Iron Fleet, away, and the longships are outmatched by Redwyne's dromonds.

I'd like, respectfully but rather firmly, to disagree with this part of your argument. You see Euron, as far as I can tell, as overrated qua menace; I think he's underrated, except by people well positioned to assess him at his true value (Theon, Asha, Rodrik, Moqorro's prophecy, the prophecy of the Undying, even Loras in his eagerness to go and save the Reach from the new threat.) These characters seem to me to set up Euron as a serious and supernatural threat (much more effectively, I think, for instance, than Aegon). Euron will make (ha ha) waves in some darker way than a mere fleet.

Neither do I think Euron's had the three book innings you describe. He has only been a relatively vestigial political and psychological factor in Feast and Dance (compare to Robb, Joffrey, even, proportionally speaking, Renly! Renly dominated the situation for the brief time he reigned). In any case, I think numerical measurements ('three book reigns' for instance) in a work of imaginative fiction are often seriously prone to being overstretched.

Mostly, though, I must admit, I am desperate for the piece de la resistance of your theory not to be true because I can't bear Sam. I find him dull, hard to believe in, irritating and unoriginal. His every appearance makes me sigh and his every achievement wail. If Martin allows him to whack one of the more promising later plot developments, Euron's rise, under his considerable belt I will be sorely disappointed.

[Fire Eater]

I'd like, respectfully but rather firmly, to disagree with this part of your argument. You see Euron, as far as I can tell, as overrated qua menace; I think he's underrated, except by people well positioned to assess him at his true value (Theon, Asha, Rodrik, Moqorro's prophecy, the prophecy of the Undying, even Loras in his eagerness to go and save the Reach from the new threat.) These characters seem to me to set up Euron as a serious and supernatural threat (much more effectively, I think, for instance, than Aegon). Euron will make (ha ha) waves in some darker way than a mere fleet.

Neither do I think Euron's had the three book innings you describe. He has only been a relatively vestigial political and psychological factor in Feast and Dance (compare to Robb, Joffrey, even, proportionally speaking, Renly! Renly dominated the situation for the brief time he reigned). In any case, I think numerical measurements ('three book reigns' for instance) in a work of imaginative fiction are often seriously prone to being overstretched.

Mostly, though, I must admit, I am desperate for the piece de la resistance of your theory not to be true because I can't bear Sam. I find him dull, hard to believe in, irritating and unoriginal. His every appearance makes me sigh and his every achievement wail. If Martin allows him to whack one of the more promising later plot developments, Euron's rise, under his considerable belt I will be sorely disappointed.

I think his contribution is more to other characters: Asha (who goes in exile to where she is now), Victarion (who is sent to Meereen), Aeron (who is taking a more active role in the Iron Isles) and likely, Sam (who will be in Oldtown when Euron attacks). Nothing in the Undying points to Euron, and I think the grey corpse smiling sadly is too vague to point to a Greyjoy. Euron can't pose a sgnificant threat to Dany, IMO, as he no longer has the horn, and it has been sabotaged. She will also likely have the Iron Fleet. Aegon has only the GC atm, but I doubt Euron is going to be a bigger threat than the guy who Dany will have a second Dance with, the conflict that has been pointed to since AGoT.

As for Sam, he is developing as a character, and I find him believable, given what he has been through at Horn Hill. I understand you feelings towards Sam killing Euron, I don't want Victarion to kill Barristan either, but I think it will happen.

[Caesar Augustus]

Why is everyone saying Piggy will kill Euron? That will never happen. Euron is just going to cook some roast pork. Bye bye Lord Piggy.

[Trickrs]

Sam killing Euron would be hilarious.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

It's an ingenious but frustrating pet theory of Fire Eater's, who has a reputation for vatic success.

I may well have been wrong about the Undying (I have blind spots with prophecies and Daenerys) but I'm fairly sure Dany gets warned to watch out for Euron at some point...

[+cassius]

the whole sam killing euron shit is straight corny

[Mithras]

It looks like you guys haven't heard of Savage Sam Tarly.

[John Doe]

Why is everyone saying Piggy will kill Euron? That will never happen. Euron is just going to cook some roast pork. Bye bye Lord Piggy.

:agree:

[Slender Aimry Hill]

It would be hugely annoying, but it also seems to me structurally unlikely. I think Euron has a lot more juice in him -

- the cryptically Bloodravenesque comments, 'Westeros is dying', 'How do you know whether you can fly till you jump'? He seems a sort of anti-or-proto-Bloodraven/Bran

- the whole question of what the hell is the relationship of the ironborn to the old gods anyway (see also Theon)

- the Faceless Men plot

- the potential supernatural boost Euron could get if he took Oldtown

- the overturning of the kingsmoot

- the brotherly rivalry

I'm sure there are more of these I've neglected. If Euron dies when, where, and how Fire Eater believes, there is no point in any of these hints and set ups. Dalton Greyjoy may have been the Red Kraken, but I've no wish to see his latest successor turn out to be the Red Herring.