R+L=J v100

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

The baby needs to suck in order to get the milk to be ejected, but milk production begins quickly, and a child can be breastfed within a small amount of time after birth.

Is there a like button for this post? I wish there was one. I agree.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

How about Dany? :)

Nah. She wanted a genuine girls name. We came up with Autumn Brees

[BearQueen87]

Nah. She wanted a genuine girls name. We came up with Autumn Brees

That's really pretty!

[Ser Duncan the Small]

That's really pretty!

So is she :)

I've heard troubling rumors of a cute guy with long hair and a harp hanging around my place at the time of conception.....

Oh My Old Gods my child is secretly a Targaryen

[Ghost's Shadow]

How about Dany? :)

You mean Kelly C.

Is thread 100 going to be the breast milk thread, then? :lol:

[BearQueen87]

So is she :)

I've heard troubling rumors of a cute guy with long hair and a harp hanging around my place at the time of conception.....

Oh My Old Gods my child is secretly a Targaryen

Everyone is a secret Targ

You mean Kelly C.

Is thread 100 going to be the breast milk thread, then? :lol:

I won't lie, it took saying Kelly C out loud before I got the joke.

And I think thread 100 is the breast milk, joking, crazy people, party thread.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Everyone is a secret Targ

I won't lie, it took saying Kelly C out loud before I got the joke.

And I think thread 100 is the breast milk, joking, crazy people, party thread.

I actually laughed out loud at Kelly C. I didn't get it for quite some time. Well played.

I fell like for thread 101, we should teach newcomers the basics of the theory cause I mean R+L=J 101 might lead some to believe its the beginning of a classroom-esque discussion

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I actually laughed out loud at Kelly C. I didn't get it for quite some time. Well played.

I fell like for thread 101, we should teach newcomers the basics of the theory cause I mean R+L=J 101 might lead some to believe its the beginning of a classroom-esque discussion

Very good.

And what? Lyanna? Arya? Daenerys?

Wylla! Rohanne! :) Congratulations to all the parents here.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is thread 100 going to be the breast milk thread, then? :lol:

Apparently :lol:

[Ser Duncan the Small]

We are closing in on time for thread 101. I don't want this to end :'(

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I wanted to reply about the "preparation" of the corpse, but while I was away an hour you've quickly moved on to breastfeeding :lol: (a subject I know a thing or two about as well ;) )

So... re: the corpse, one word-- beetles.

Re: breastfeeding-- I'm with UVA. I hold fast to the idea that Lyanna would have been nursing Jon herself until very close to her death. Babies can take the breast within moments of birth, and most midwives (using the time hallowed knowledge that would have been present in medieval childbirth) would have the mother put the babe to breast immediately to facilitate the post partum contractions that expel the placenta and reduce the uterus from it's extended pregnant state. Since most of our timeline estimates indicate Lyanna lived a week or even two after birth, I feel confident she would have experienced this bonding with the babe. Remember that puerperal fever does not onset immediately, rather it is an infection that takes over due to the normal trauma of childbirth being complicated by unsanitary conditions. Also, it's made pretty clear that most noble ladies in Westeros do in fact nurse their own children-- Cat, Lysa (ahem) even Cersei. I don't think a wet-nurse would be an automatic go to if a normal birth was anticipated (as it surely was with a healthy young mother) and would only be necessary once her dire condition became apparent. We have examples in story of wet nurses being used only in the case of a mother who has no milk (Edric Dayne) or has died (Dalla) In the case of Dalla's boy, they had Gilly. After the "switch" goat's milk sufficed for Monster until the two nurses from the mountain clans could be brought in.

So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is beetles and goats :p

P.S. I wish I could remember the number of the thread I fondly remember as "the obstetric thread" ... RLJ is certainly no place for the faint of heart or the squeamish ;)

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Very good.

And what? Lyanna? Arya? Daenerys?

Wylla! Rohanne! :) Congratulations to all the parents here.

I tried Nymeria, Ashara, Asha, Allyria, Rhaella, Brienne, Shireen, and I even suggested Winter and Summer. I tried Dawn too, obviously cause my baby is a star and will be the greatest baby that ever lived.

[stateofdissipation]

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."- AFfC p. 21

From this some have determined that Lyanna gave birth.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40

From this some have determined that the cause of death was fever.

Asserting that Lyanna died immediately after the showdown has no basis. Lyanna died after.

The assertion that that there were servants and a wetnurse at the tower is based on an unspecified "they."

[Ser Duncan the Small]

From this some have determined that Lyanna gave birth.

From this some have determined that the cause of death was fever.

Asserting that Lyanna died immediately after the showdown has no basis. Lyanna died after.

The assertion that that there were servants and a wetnurse at the tower is based on an unspecified "they."

Well, not immeditaley, she has the brief conversation with Ned.

But, Ned races to Starfall to bring Dawn to Lady Ashara. He then goes to KL if I'm not mistaken, I actually don't know if this is said in the text. So Lyanna died shortly thereafter, according to some wiki's Lyanna was dying at the ToJ, if she was I don't think Ned would have torn it down until she died. Opinion of course, but logic (my logic) would dictate to have her in a Tower and bring help rather than take her and risk her health furthermore in the elements on the Road too help.

[mambru]

Do I think that the 3KG felt bad that they were going to have to kill Lyanna's brother? Yes. Do I think they stopped and thought really long and hard about the moral implications of doing that? Nope. Why? Because King Jon needs protecting, and We! Are! Kingsguard!

But charging straight into a battle is a command decision when their place as a Kingsguard is to OBEY. A king, a commander-in-chief, can decide to order a charge, of course. He can also decide to try to parley before battle, to see if an enemy can be turned into an ally and obviate the need for any battle - especially a battle whose outcome is in considerable doubt, one which - even if 'successful' - will kill the last Lord Paramount who would conceivably help the King and provoke the vengeful counterstroke of that Lord Paramount's army - when the King has an "army" of three to his name.

A king may choose to flee into exile. A king may even choose to abdicate. It's not up to the KG to judge the king's decisions - only obey them. And if the king can't speak for himself (as baby Jon cannot) - it is up to the Royal family to make the decisions, not the KG. Barristan humbly obeyed Cersei and let her tear up a legitimate order by Robert to make Ned Regent. Jaime obeyed Cersei's order to leave KL and leave the KG and the protection of King Tommen in the arrogant rookie hands of Kettleblack. Even GRRM said himself that if Rhaegar (also Royal Family, not the King) ordered the KG to stay away from the King in the middle of the war, they would obey him. The KG disobeying Lyanna would fly in the face of these precedents...which seems to indicate that they didn't consider Lyanna Royal family - therefore Jon not the King.

Designating someone an enemy of the new King to be immediately massacred is a political decision, not a military one.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So.... Lyanna gave birth dragons and breastfed them?

If yuo don't like Kelly C, you could name a baby Mely Sanders.

had two children, and breastfed both.

I thought you were a guy D:!

[mambru]

It helps with the rest of what Jon says and hears in the books, that's a thing. And it helps understanding he might have been Targaryen King when he was a "suckling babe", And may account for three kingsguards at the cradle. It helps, but if that was wrong, the rest of R+L would all still be valid and still quite important as a key to the overall story.

I agree, but lots of people on this thread seem to see the concepts of "Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna" and "Jon is the legitimate son of the polygamous marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna and therefore he's not only TPTWP but the Targaryen King of Westeros" as inextricably wedded (so to speak)...when one doesn't necessarily follow the other.

That might be a good idea, yes. Maybe you want to write it?

Hmm...thing is, I DO believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are most likely the parents of Jon (though stateofdissipation's objection that it's only Ned's kids who are supposed to be wargs did give me a bit of pause). I just object to the idea that they were necessarily married, when I don't think it was either necessary or likely...though some of my objections might apply to the more general argument. I can try to see if I can put my "con" observations into micro-capsule form (take two every evening with a glass of skepticism).

[Kingmonkey]

I tried for Arya too, but Lyanna was a better prospect. I even went Daenerys but she thought that was way out there.

In 2013 in the UK, 4 babies were named Daenerys, so yeah that's pretty out there. Even Sansa gets one more. Khaleesi was way more common with 50. Too few Lyannas to be on the tool I checked (has to be at least 3), but 187 Aryas made Arya the 257th most common girl's name for the year. Same number as there were Josephines, twice as many as Joannas, 5 times as common as Christine. That's not out there at all!

[Ser Duncan the Small]

But charging straight into a battle is a command decision when their place as a Kingsguard is to OBEY. A king, a commander-in-chief, can decide to order a charge, of course. He can also decide to try to parley before battle, to see if an enemy can be turned into an ally and obviate the need for any battle - especially a battle whose outcome is in considerable doubt, one which - even if 'successful' - will kill the last Lord Paramount who would conceivably help the King and provoke the vengeful counterstroke of that Lord Paramount's army - when the King has an "army" of three to his name.

A king may choose to flee into exile. A king may even choose to abdicate. It's not up to the KG to judge the king's decisions - only obey them. And if the king can't speak for himself (as baby Jon cannot) - it is up to the Royal family to make the decisions, not the KG. Barristan humbly obeyed Cersei and let her tear up a legitimate order by Robert to make Ned Regent. Jaime obeyed Cersei's order to leave KL and leave the KG and the protection of King Tommen in the arrogant rookie hands of Kettleblack. Even GRRM said himself that if Rhaegar (also Royal Family, not the King) ordered the KG to stay away from the King in the middle of the war, they would obey him. The KG disobeying Lyanna would fly in the face of these precedents...which seems to indicate that they didn't consider Lyanna Royal family - therefore Jon not the King.

Designating someone an enemy of the new King to be immediately massacred is a political decision, not a military one.

Well, he's an enemy to the Targaryen line I would say. What occurred to Rhaegars other children might have played a role in them not wanting Jon to fall into Rebel hands. Regardless of it being Neds sister and/or nephew.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

In 2013 in the UK, 4 babies were named Daenerys, so yeah that's pretty out there. Even Sansa gets one more. Khaleesi was way more common with 50. Too few Lyannas to be on the tool I checked (has to be at least 3), but 187 Aryas made Arya the 257th most common girl's name for the year. Same number as there were Josephines, twice as many as Joannas, 5 times as common as Christine. That's not out there at all!

The UK, I live in America. Well Alaska, still the US but I like to think we're seperate