LGBTQI - youtube is awesome!

[Weeping Sore]

At a dinner party and the host relates a story about a trip where they arrived late at a chateau in Europe and there was no one there to meet them. Then a "large" woman came in the middle of the night to let them in, and it turned out it was "really a man". I was waiting for more details or insight on this person they met, but no, that was it, /anecdote. A punchline, in other words. Then the subject changed before I had the chance to formulate a response, which would have surely been emotional and finished with me leaving the room.

The host is about 20 years my senior, but is usually pretty sensitive (his daughter is openly gay, and he has a great relationship with her). So it was just pure ignorance, but I just felt like it pushed me back a step; I felt terribly depressed by the idea that for many people, I am/will be a punchline if I continue in the direction I'm going.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Sometimes people say things because they think they are expected to say things.

ETA: I shouldn't post from my phone.

[TerraPrime]

Weeping Sore:

There will always be people who are not educated on the issue. Even for LBG issues, which had over 5 decades of activism behind it, we still get comments that stemmed not from malice but from ignorance. Heck, look at the progress in fighting against racism and the type of ignorant comment people still get.

I know it must be hurtful to realize that to some people, your state of being will continue to be a joke of sorts. It is a completely valid reaction to that sort of dismissal.

If anything positive could come out of this experience, it might be that you can maybe write an email to that host and explain why that anecdote, as presented, isn't a sensitive thing to say about people with non-traditional gender presentations. You need not out yourself at all. You can simply say that you've learned about it from friends who are transgender that stories like that make them feel belittled and marginalized. Write with empathy and with conviction to share and educate, and with luck, he will see that it is an issue and deals with it. Or you might not want to have this conversation with that person, but maybe use this experience to inform yourself what you want to do next time something like this comes up (because, you know, it will).

I am just making a suggestion on something that you can do to make yourself feel better about this encounter. It might not be the right step for you to take at this time, or ever, and that's perfectly okay too.

[Weeping Sore]

@Terra- You're right - and I have a feeling the host would actually be receptive to such an email.

@Robin- That's a pretty perceptive take, there was something obligatory about treating the encounter as a joke.

[Robin Of House Hill]

@Terra- You're right - and I have a feeling the host would actually be receptive to such an email.

@Robin- That's a pretty perceptive take, there was something obligatory about treating the encounter as a joke.

WS,

There's also an element of, "I'm expected by others to act this way."

I comment more later, but at the moment I have to finish watching a movie that is very difficult for me to watch...because I know how it ends and why.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I like the idea of the email. If you are worried he might wonder why you mentioned it, you can always say you once knew someone who would have been very hurt by what he said. I recall someone using that idea.

BTW, the movie I was watching, earlier was Soldier's Girl.There are lot of things about it that I have difficulty with, but surprisingly, I found it very well done.

[Weeping Sore]

@Robin- Thanks, again. And I do think the host would take it well; I was more upset with myself at being caught flat-footed and not responding at the time- also just having a hard time in social situations in general right now.

[Roose Seal]

What do you girls think of Transparent?
I've been trying to watch but i just can't get into it.
I watched the pilot a while back but i just started watching the actual show and I'm really not convinced. It feels more like they're telling the story of how the kids react to Moira's coming out, rather than telling Moira's story. As such, it feels like Moira is more of a pretext to tell the other characters' story rather than a fully-developed character of her own.
Granted i'm only on episode 4 so it could change, but it's really not making me want to watch the rest.
Also, the three kids are kind of obnoxious, they really come off as your typical quirky indie-flick stock character.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'm surprised I found myself liking it. Look at it this way. Everything is interrelated. Maura's lifelong dilemma has prevented her from providing the parental attention her kids needed, which, in part, contributes to their quirks. I think the idea is to have Maura grow into her new life.

The show uses comedy and by spreading it around, it doesn't make Maura the central figure of that comedy.. Beyond that, I won't say because I don't want to do spoilers. I'll only say that I've watched it twice, the second time with my better half and that I'm looking forward to next season.

ETA: It also addresses a boatload of issues.

[emberling]

I have not watched it, but there seems to be a loose general consensus in my social circles; based on the recaps I've read, for what those are worth, I expect I'd feel this same way about it it I watched it:

a ) it is Very Good Television, whatever that means

b ) It is a story by, for, and about cis people (with the possible exception of Ali)

c ) "Transparent is a show about how difficult it is to be a cis person who knows a trans person and can’t just cut them out of your life." (@tomleger)

This past weekend apparently the show's creator posted some really awful "haha, look at this inherently funny trans person" joke? I don't know, I just caught the edges of it and didn't delve any deeper. Apparently related to some celebrity rumored to be trans that I am deliberately uninterested in. Bottom line is I think it's good that the show exists and it's basically respectful, it's positive progress. But in a sense that's grading on a curve and without the curve pretty much everything for trans people and, for that matter, cis women, PoC, disabled etc etc. is still horseshit. We're upgraded from "punchline" to "plot device," the vaunted status that damsels in distress and magical negroes have enjoyed for decades. Wooooo, pass the champagne.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Short version.

Someone sent Jill Soloway a graphic which looked similar to the one used to advertise Transparent, but substituted images of Bruce Jenner. Because of its similarity to the show, she thought it interesting, However, she stated that if anyone felt it was wrong, she would remove it. I and a number of others told her it was wrong. She posted an apology and removed the graphic from her page.

Unfortunately, by that time, enough screen captures of the post had been made and the "community" went on a rampage. The same people who keep saying that cisgender people can't possibly understand what it is like to be trans in this world, were pissed off because a cis person didn't understand what it is like to be trans in this world. Catch-22.

So, while at least four trans women have been murdered in the US in the past three weeks, everyone is upset over an incident that has already been dealt with and apologized for.

As for Tom Leger's comment on Twitter, I think it is a slap in the face to the trans actors on the show.

[Roose Seal]

Oops Maura, not Moira.

Thank you for your opinion!

a ) it is Very Good Television, whatever that means

Jill Soloway wrote a number of episodes for Six Feet Under, which is considered by many to be the pinnacle of family dramas (I find the first 2 seasons great the then the show disappears up its own navel, but whatever).
I can definitely see what they mean, it's really trying very hard to be a "good" show... so much that a lot of the dialogue and situations come across as extremely forced, imo.

I agree the show does address some issues that are very important..
But the show not so subtly implies that Maura's struggle is the reason why the kids are so weird. While that may well be possible, it still shifts the focus off Maura and on to the kids.

I do think that tweet (the Tom Leger one) is a little insulting to the trans actors in the show , but I feel like there is some truth to it. It's not so much a show about being a transwoman as a show about having a transwoman in your family.
So the show goes from "how hard is it to come out as trans late in your life" to "how hard is it to have a family member come out as trans late in their life"

Again, I am only on episode 4 but that's the feeling I got. Maybe the show will prove me wrong after that.

When I said the kids are kind of obnoxious, I meant as characters.. I understand why they made them that way but I just can't find myself to care about them - at all-. Then again I have a strong aversion to the 'quirky liberal rich kid' type of characters you often see in those kind of shows/movies (Girls comes to mind, since the younger girl is also in that show)

There's one recurring complaint I don't necessarily agree with however (but I understand where it comes from), is that they chose a cis-male to play Maura. Now were this character younger, I'd definitely agree.. but to find a 70 y/o pre-transition transwoman who is also an actress and who would be available for shooting must not be an easy feat. One could also argue that they could've hired a transwoman and use make-up to portray her pre-transition.
Did they even try to not cast a cis-male? I don't know (knowing casting practices, they probably didn't but who knows) - but in the end, I guess understand the decision?

And Tambor plays the part well and with lots of subtlety and respect imo. So there's that.
This is not nearly as problematic (to me. Again, I understand the complaints) as, say Jared Leto in DBC.

all in all, i'll keep watching cause that's all there is.. but I feel like there was a better way to do this?

on another topic, Looking continues to be pretty cringe-worthy.

[karaddin]

I agree with the comparison to Leto in DBC, That, and the tired old trans sex worker trope, were enough to put me off watching it and be pissed enough at those involved that I still haven't watched True Detective because of Mcconaughey.

Personally I also feel that there are a couple of things I've seen from Tambor that make me wonder if he even is really cis or just someone who is never going to come out and transition. He certainly brings a sensibility to Maura that I feel does the character justice, even as the cis male as trans character thing still bothers me. I'm only only ep6, it hasn't been a great last few months for me and I haven't found myself in a healthy enough head space to watch any more of it, as there are moments that are...confronting and difficult.

[Weeping Sore]

I still don't really understand criticism of Leto's performance in DBC, though I agree the character is cliched and under-written. Some pretty stupid things came out of Leto's mouth at the awards shows and press junkets, but the performance itself was very sensitive and committed, IMO.

It's strange, Leto went out of his way to try to joke about the role, trying to distance himself, yet he didn't cut his long hair, which would be the obvious careerist move to underline his manliness. Also the cuts of his suits at the time oddly emphasized a feminine waist-to-hips ratio. So I think there may have been some genuine confusion arising either from his/her innate self or lingering identification with the role; I'm inclined to cut him some slack. To those who would say the performance was too focused on "dressing up" I'd submit that Leto's strongest scene had his character dressing up in male drag to beg her father for money. Heartbreaking.

On a different note, I'm wondering if anyone is watching Lee Daniels' Empire, which might end up being a really important LGBT-friendly show because of its huge minority audience, at least here in the U.S. The largest plotline involves a mother fighting for her gay son's career against the wishes of his abusive, homophobic father. There is almost zero nuance, but this show has a 72% share of black women 35-54, for example.

[karaddin]

The issue is that it's a post transition trans woman, and they cast a cis MAN to play the role. It's bad enough that they never even considered trans actresses (that's what the director said), but a trans woman is a woman, the role should at least be played by a cis woman and I'm still not happy with that - we need representation.

And we are starting to get it, I'm really looking forward to a rom com called Boy Meets Girl doing the film festival rounds where the director cast a trans woman from trawling youtube vlogs, then finding one he thought would be able to act. Sense 8 is going to have a trans character played by a trans actress. If some can do this, more can.

ETA: And the stupid stuff that came out of his mouth was the nail in the coffin for me.

[Weeping Sore]

Well, I get having a problem with the writing and casting, just not the performance. And as for the stupid things Leto's said, he just does just seem to be a bit stupid.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Okay, let's take a look at the times a trans character has been portrayed by cis actor.

Transamerica: Felicity Huffman, a cis woman portrayed Bree, a trans woman. Most trans women reacted negatively to a timid, hyper-feminized trans woman, whose character was the focus of bad joke after bad joke, The probem is that I've known trans women who were exactly like Bree.

Boys Don't Cry: Hillary Swank, a cis woman portrayed Brandon Teena, a trans man. I didn't hear much negativity about this one, though I cringed at the concept of any trans person exercising so little caution.

Soldier's Girl: Lee Pace, a cis man portrayed Calpernia Addams, a trans woman, who at the time, was pre-op and appearing in drag shows. I guess no one saw it, because I don't remember anyone getting upset about it. My opinion only, butI thought Lee Pace did a brilliant portrayal. I will also point out that as far as I know, it is the only mainstream movie to deal with someone who is pre-op in sexual situations.

Dallas Buyers Club: Jared Leto, a cis man portrayed Rayon, a trans woman. Everyone went nuts! Not only was it, "transface", but OMG, a trans woman who was a drug addict and sex worker. Hell no! There can't possibly be any of those, can there? After saying it was such an evil portrayal, everyone then got upset because Leto wouldn't say the word, 'transgender', during his Oscar acceptance speech. Don't want him portraying a trans person, but insulted he didn't mention trans people. Hmmm.

Orange Is The New Black: Laverne Cox, a trans woman, portrays Sophia Burset, a trans woman. We all are ecstatic. That she portrays a convicted felon who committed credit card fraud to finance her reassignment surgery, no one is upset. After all, it was for a good cause.

Transparent: Jeffrey Tambor, a cis man, portrays Maura Pfefferman a trans woman. It gets mixed reviews. On one side complaints of transface and on the other, praise because it portrays a trans woman in a favorable light. My only complaint is Maura's fashion choices, but to be honest, I know a trans woman who dresses exactly the same way.

We all are overjoyed when Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, or Carmen Carrera are seen on TV, because they "good" representatives of trans women. Right! They're beautiful, and pretty high on the scale of cis-normativity. But, how would we feel about a public appearance of a trans woman who was overweight, whose features were not cis-normative feminine and had a voice like a fog horn?

Lastly, which is better, a show or movie with a well known actor who gets an audience that is cis, or a little known trans actor who draws only a trans audience?

[Roose Seal]

Okay, let's take a look at the times a trans character has been portrayed by cis actor.

Transamerica: Felicity Huffman, a cis woman portrayed Bree, a trans woman. Most trans women reacted negatively to a timid, hyper-feminized trans woman, whose character was the focus of bad joke after bad joke, The probem is that I've known trans women who were exactly like Bree.

Boys Don't Cry: Hillary Swank, a cis woman portrayed Brandon Teena, a trans man. I didn't hear much negativity about this one, though I cringed at the concept of any trans person exercising so little caution.

Soldier's Girl: Lee Pace, a cis man portrayed Calpernia Addams, a trans woman, who at the time, was pre-op and appearing in drag shows. I guess no one saw it, because I don't remember anyone getting upset about it. My opinion only, butI thought Lee Pace did a brilliant portrayal. I will also point out that as far as I know, it is the only mainstream movie to deal with someone who is pre-op in sexual situations.

Dallas Buyers Club: Jared Leto, a cis man portrayed Rayon, a trans woman. Everyone went nuts! Not only was it, "transface", but OMG, a trans woman who was a drug addict and sex worker. Hell no! There can't possibly be any of those, can there? After saying it was such an evil portrayal, everyone then got upset because Leto wouldn't say the word, 'transgender', during his Oscar acceptance speech. Don't want him portraying a trans person, but insulted he didn't mention trans people. Hmmm.

Orange Is The New Black: Laverne Cox, a trans woman, portrays Sophia Burset, a trans woman. We all are ecstatic. That she portrays a convicted felon who committed credit card fraud to finance her reassignment surgery, no one is upset. After all, it was for a good cause.

Transparent: Jeffrey Tambor, a cis man, portrays Maura Pfefferman a trans woman. It gets mixed reviews. On one side complaints of transface and on the other, praise because it portrays a trans woman in a favorable light. My only complaint is Maura's fashion choices, but to be honest, I know a trans woman who dresses exactly the same way.

We all are overjoyed when Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, or Carmen Carrera are seen on TV, because they "good" representatives of trans women. Right! They're beautiful, and pretty high on the scale of cis-normativity. But, how would we feel about a public appearance of a trans woman who was overweight, whose features were not cis-normative feminine and had a voice like a fog horn?

Lastly, which is better, a show or movie with a well known actor who gets an audience that is cis, or a little known trans actor who draws only a trans audience?

From what I gathered, criticism about Rayon was not about the character herself, or even Leto's performance (which, admittedly, was really good) but the fact that Leto was so dumb about the subject in interviews and the team's response to "why didn't you cast a transwoman?", which was pretty appalling.

I think it's more like we're happy that trans characters are played by actual trans actors. Yes they're very glamorous and not necessarily representive of the "average" trans person.. but then again are mainstream cis actors really representive of the "average" cis person?

If anything, OITNB has shown that a trans character portrayed by an actual trans can be very well received by the public, so I really don't think it's an either/or situation.

Also, I'd argue that I'd prefer shows about the LGBT community to be targetted to the actual LGBT community instead of pandering to a voyeuristic straight audience looking for "edgy" content. I know shows need an audience to survive, but I want shows for people who need representation to survive, not for cishets in need of a little saturday night escapism.

I, for one, love Maura's fashion choices haha

[brook]

It's strange, Leto went out of his way to try to joke about the role, trying to distance himself, yet he didn't cut his long hair, which would be the obvious careerist move to underline his manliness.

No agent worth his salt would let Leto cut his hair. Playing up his manliness is all well and good but it's the pretty that gets him roles.

Okay, let's take a look at the times a trans character has been portrayed by cis actor.

Transamerica: Felicity Huffman, a cis woman portrayed Bree, a trans woman. Most trans women reacted negatively to a timid, hyper-feminized trans woman, whose character was the focus of bad joke after bad joke, The probem is that I've known trans women who were exactly like Bree.

Boys Don't Cry: Hillary Swank, a cis woman portrayed Brandon Teena, a trans man. I didn't hear much negativity about this one, though I cringed at the concept of any trans person exercising so little caution.

Soldier's Girl: Lee Pace, a cis man portrayed Calpernia Addams, a trans woman, who at the time, was pre-op and appearing in drag shows. I guess no one saw it, because I don't remember anyone getting upset about it. My opinion only, butI thought Lee Pace did a brilliant portrayal. I will also point out that as far as I know, it is the only mainstream movie to deal with someone who is pre-op in sexual situations.

Dallas Buyers Club: Jared Leto, a cis man portrayed Rayon, a trans woman. Everyone went nuts! Not only was it, "transface", but OMG, a trans woman who was a drug addict and sex worker. Hell no! There can't possibly be any of those, can there? After saying it was such an evil portrayal, everyone then got upset because Leto wouldn't say the word, 'transgender', during his Oscar acceptance speech. Don't want him portraying a trans person, but insulted he didn't mention trans people. Hmmm.

Orange Is The New Black: Laverne Cox, a trans woman, portrays Sophia Burset, a trans woman. We all are ecstatic. That she portrays a convicted felon who committed credit card fraud to finance her reassignment surgery, no one is upset. After all, it was for a good cause.

Transparent: Jeffrey Tambor, a cis man, portrays Maura Pfefferman a trans woman. It gets mixed reviews. On one side complaints of transface and on the other, praise because it portrays a trans woman in a favorable light. My only complaint is Maura's fashion choices, but to be honest, I know a trans woman who dresses exactly the same way.

We all are overjoyed when Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, or Carmen Carrera are seen on TV, because they "good" representatives of trans women. Right! They're beautiful, and pretty high on the scale of cis-normativity. But, how would we feel about a public appearance of a trans woman who was overweight, whose features were not cis-normative feminine and had a voice like a fog horn?

Lastly, which is better, a show or movie with a well known actor who gets an audience that is cis, or a little known trans actor who draws only a trans audience?

It's completely the wrong time of the morning for me to attempt to say much about this except that

a) Criticism of the roles themselves is different to criticism of the casting decision which can be different again to criticism of the actor/actress cast (as in if they say something stupid rather than simply were cast in the wrong gender). To use a movie not on your list I can love Priscilla, think it's unfortunate that Bernadette was not played by a woman, recognise other problematic elements and yet still believe that seeing the relationship between Bernadette and Bob playing out as a completely unquestioned heterosexual love story with no questions at all was way ahead of it's time.

As to your second last question. I would feel wonderful about that, but the media being focused on a very narrow beauty standard and unwilling to make space for those that fall outside that is a problem that extends a lot further than just the handful of trans women allowed to take up any real media space.

[emberling]

a) Criticism of the roles themselves is different to criticism of the casting decision which can be different again to criticism of the actor/actress cast (as in if they say something stupid rather than simply were cast in the wrong gender).

Absolutely this. It's bizarre to me that criticism of the show as a whole and the show's creator is being seen as somehow insulting to the trans actors involved. None of them are even given "main cast" billing. Expecting them to fix the unconscious cissexism inherent in the show is way above and beyond the show's job description. And their agreement to work on the show isn't something being criticized - for one, they're actors, not representatives of trans politics. Marginalized actors who are often overlooked. Of course they're going to take a high profile job with a quality show. And for another, by pushing the awareness of talented trans actors as a group, they're making room for future good, high-profile trans roles. "The show is problematic" does not taint everyone associated with the show and it does not erase the aspects that are doing good work.

Comparison: Does saying Avengers had too many dudes and not enough women insult Scarlett Johansson? Does saying Game of Thrones has problematic depiction of rape, or observing the troubling 'white savior' trope at the end of season three, damage Emilia Clarke's honor? Is criticism of "sexposition" a criticism of the actor who played Ros? Not remotely.

Lastly, which is better, a show or movie with a well known actor who gets an audience that is cis, or a little known trans actor who draws only a trans audience?

What the hell does "better" mean? Doing good work from an activist perspective, if that's what we're talking about, often involves making a fuckton of compromises. The show represents the compromise position, the "much-less-awful-than-before." Sometimes you can take that and be overjoyed by it. Sometimes it's a bitter pill and you'd rather just leave it for others to worry about.