LGBTQI - youtube is awesome!

[Lily Valley]

Brook, that's great. The kids have been pretty great. Geez, could we bore them more by talking about local politics?

My son was briefly perturbed to report that his friend who transitioned was, "really pretty". I named several of his female friends who are total knockouts. He nodded and looked thoughtful. I took that to mean he was still reconciling his friend's new identity vs. what his eyes were telling him.. The young lady stayed away for a year during HRT. She came back around looking much different.

[Robin Of House Hill]

While I am not surprised by this, I wish the full text was not by subscription only. The details would be interesting.

CONCLUSIONS: A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I think this article asking the question if trans communities are losing intersex allies in the TERF wars, may be of interest to some. It touches on radical feminism, gender critical perspectives, transphobia and a number of other issues. It is well written, but very long.

[TerraPrime]

Nice article.

[emberling]

Good read. Something that made me uncomfortable though:

Trans people are going to continue to alienate intersex people if they continue to assert the more abstract claim that the entire trans community has the right to call itself intersex, because trans people have an intersex brain, or the brain of one binary sex in the body of the other. This claim deeply alienates intersex people for two reasons. First, the impulse to appropriate the term intersex is based on the presumption that it is better to be deemed an intersex person than a trans person. This indicates a profound ignorance of all the the pain and marginalization intersex people face--in other words, it illustrates nonintersex privilege. And secondly, the people who make this "intersex brain" case generally go on to assert that they deserve free gender transition services, because intersex people get those services for free as children, as society understands in their case that this is medically necessary. This claim presents the central problem against which intersex advocates struggle--forced genital surgery performed on unconsenting children--as both necessary and good.

This is talking about trans-as-intersex as if it's ideology. And that may be the case for the majority of trans-as-intersex proponents that enter intersex communities; I don't have that perspective. The people described here certainly sound odious, and I don't doubt that they exist. There's a great deal of pressure on trans people to 'justify' our transition, because society at large isn't ready to accept malleable gender as a part of personal autonomy. That means there's a lot of temptation to appropriate intersexuality. I'm sure most of us (I certainly did) experienced early in our lives a sense that we were somehow deformed or 'other' down there, and since it's taboo, we don't see enough examples to compare with to see whether or not we're 'normal'. (Are there supposed to be two holes? Everyone talks as if there's only one.)

But the claim is this: DSD can occur in dimorphic areas of the brain, causing gender dysphoria. That isn't an ideological claim, it's a scientific one. It hasn't been, to my knowledge, demonstrated definitively - but it seems the most likely interpretation of the data we have. It could be demonstrated in the future; there is a good chance that it will be.

I accept that intersex as an identity and political group does not necessarily need to include all differences of sexual development. But to my eye, it's already a fairly large tent. Not everyone accepted as intersex faces the possibility of nonconsensual genital surgery. Not everyone accepted as intersex has visible difference from the norm. Not everyone accepted as intersex has differences other than the physical configurations of certain body parts. I accept that I may be speaking from ignorance here, but it appears to me that the common factor that is judged to provide legitimate intersex identity is simply whether one has some kind of atypical development of sexual traits. Is it important to combine chromosomal and genital differences but segregate these from other differences? If there is such a distinction, I'd be very interested to hear it. (Maybe it's simply that the brain structure isn't currently testable pre-mortem - that would make some sense; it could be impossible for any individual, living trans person to identify legitimately as intersex solely due to being trans, because their condition hasn't been proven. That's not what's being argued though.)

The complaint about cis/trans dichotomy is interesting. I think it depends on how one defines those two. I see it getting murky often when people try to define 'cis' and 'trans' both affirmatively - I see cis people reject 'cis,' defined as 'feeling in concordance with one's gender identity,' because they don't recognize the presence of a gender identity. Which makes sense, since 'gender identity' is a weird construct that conflates a bunch of stuff, which some people feel strongly and others (i.e. myself) don't feel at all in a way that matches the usual rhetoric.

I usually think of cis and trans in terms of one's relation to social transition, physical transition, and gender dysphoria. Having any of those things qualifies one to identify as trans; having none of them makes one cis; having some measure of them but being ambivalent to the trans label makes one 'undecided' or 'questioning' or 'queer' or, if one prefers, cis. The usual framework I see acknowledges that some cis people receive trans-based discrimination / lack elements of cis privilege, and some trans people receive elements of cis privilege. This doesn't necessarily require a new category for these people. And it's hardly just an intersex thing. Plenty of cis, non-intersex women with muscles or more rugged masculine-typical jawlines get called 'tranny' and such.

I don't know, I don't mean to deny that there's a problem but I'm skeptical that some kind of trichotomy makes sense rather than simply acknowledging that dichotomies are often fuzzy. Seems like it's nonconsensually third-gendering people.

[Robin Of House Hill]

emberling,

I can't honestly recall anyone in the trans community, laying claim to the intersex label. If anyone has any links to where the claim is being made, I'd appreciate it.

It appears from the article, that part of the problem is that lake the trans community, the intersex community has the problem of the same term being applied to disparate conditions. Obviously, anomalous chromosomal conditions are not the same as atypical development of genitalia, or endocrinological conditions.

My next question is, were trans and intersex ever really allies?

[Maltaran]

I saw an article somewhere the other day about a trans woman who has now decided that s/he wants to go back to being a man again. I can't remember where this was- it was some tabloid click bait because this person is on benefits, got the transition surgery on the NHS and now wants the reversal from them as well. However, it made me curious - how often does this happen when someone decides that transitioning was a mistake and goes back to their original gender?

[karaddin]

I don't have the stats on post transition but no surgery, but regret on SRS is lower than any other surgery that it's compared to (the comparison is problematic as it's compared to cosmetic surgeries and it is not one) and I think it's around 3%. I tried to search for it, but google seems to be giving me a bunch of TERF bullshit. Regret for transition in general is very rare, and it's brought up as a red herring to deny us care so it's a pretty sensitive subject. Those who do detransition are in my opinion either incorrect about being trans in the first place, or have substantial psychological issues including internalised transphobia that they are unable to get past, unfortunately they sometimes end up extremely rabid anti trans types as they blame trans people for their own choices.

There is one particularly awful one in the Brennan/Jeffreys TERF group that really pissed me off speaking at the TERF conference wearing a "I survived testosterone poisoning" t-shirt, which was made by trans women for trans women.

There was a high profile example of an ABC (American) producer Dawn Ennis who publicly claimed a bout of amnesia had caused the whole thing and detransitioned last year, it was naturally seized upon by those who hate us and shouted from the roof tops. In June this year she admitted she really is trans and transitioned again, but I saw fuck all coverage of that. She was also fired for this.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I saw the article, yesterday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2776090/Transsexual-10-000-surgery-NHS-wants-man-again.html?ns_camp

While obviously, the Mail is exploiting this, if there is any truth in the article, then this is a clear indication that medical, "gate keeping", which people complain about, failed...miserably.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'm on a rant over this.

Forget about the misgendering, for a moment. Unless there is reason to believe the victim was targeted for being a transgender person, why bring the subject up, at all?

http://ktla.com/2014/10/02/transgender-woman-shot-seriously-wounded-in-east-hollywood-police-say/

ETA: I've seen the footage. She had a violent confrontation with 3 males, broke free and was running across the street, when she was shot from behind.

But that damned KTLA took down their original video, which got me angry and substituted one, which had some actual facts.

[karaddin]

I saw this rather lengthy NYT piece today about trans men and FAAB non-binary folk at women's only colleges in the US, mostly focusing on Wellesley college. I have some pretty complicated feelings on the matter as it's a difficult area to say exactly what the rules should be, however excluding trans women while allowing trans men is utterly fucked. I think the policy should be something similar to what Wills College has, trans women allowed, all spectrum of FAAB allowed up until legal transition occurs.

I think the comments from some of the trans men in there about changing language, the assumption that students are women etc at a womens college is really going too far, there aren't very many places in the world like these and those assumptions are a key part of what they are trying to do. If you are a trans man, you are a man and shouldn't be at a womens college. If you are non-binary and find being referred to as a woman so triggering that it kicks off your dysphoria, you once again probably shouldn't be at a womens college where your very attendance is proclaiming to the world that you are a woman - coed colleges would be much more appropriate for you, and the argument for gender neutrality in the teaching approach there is very much legitimate.

In particular I perhaps should feel sorry for someone who has internalised transphobia and has a truckload of transmisogyny that would make this comment

Others are wary of opening Wellesley’s doors too quickly — including one of Wellesley’s trans men, who asked not to be named because he knew how unpopular his stance would be. He said that Wellesley should accept only trans women who have begun sex-changing medical treatment or have legally changed their names or sex on their driver’s licenses or birth certificates. “I know that’s a lot to ask of an 18-year-old just applying to college,” he said, “but at the same time, Wellesley needs to maintain its integrity as a safe space for women. What if someone who is male-bodied comes here genuinely identified as female, and then decides after a year or two that they identify as male — and wants to stay at Wellesley? How’s that different from admitting a biological male who identifies as a man? Trans men are a different case; we were raised female, we know what it’s like to be treated as females and we have been discriminated against as females. We get what life has been like for women.”

But all I see is an asshole man that is trying to shit all over women, trans and cis, and demand access to their spaces. Fuck him.

I don't really understand the desire to stay in womens spaces as a trans guy, although I would absolutely understand and be on board with them fighting for access to men's spaces, but to me staying in the old space would feel like denying my identity and it seems like that is exactly what it does to them.

I hope this doesn't sound too hostile to trans guys, I'm kinda irritated by the attitude of several of them quoted in this piece but I realise they aren't representative of all trans guys and that the ones who do demand they retain access to these spaces tend to be a lot more visible than the majority who are just living their lives.

Also it blows my mind that TERFs think trans women are this huge threat to women and feminism to the point of outing and harassing a teen girl just trying to go to school, but are utterly silent on things like

As women’s colleges challenged the conventions of womanhood, they drew a disproportionate number of students who identified as lesbian or bisexual. Today a small but increasing number of students at those schools do not identify as women, raising the question of what it means to be a “women’s college.” Trans students are pushing their schools to play down the women-centric message. At Wellesley, Smith, Mount Holyoke and others, they and their many supporters have successfully lobbied to scrub all female references in student government constitutions, replacing them with gender-neutral language.

Which kinda seems a lot more like an attack on womens institutions than just trying to live your life.

[Crazydog7]

I don't mean to hijack but has anyone ever read Stone Butch Blues? (Jesus those prices have really spiked) I think there is a kindel version of it now,

http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Butch-Blues-A-Novel/dp/1555838537/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413434813&sr=8-1&keywords=stone+butch+blues

But if I could make a top 10 list of best autobiographies I have ever read this would be at the very top it would even beat Pulunkett of Tamney Hall.

[Sivin]

I cry a lot because my physical anatomy does not match my preferred gender and sexuality.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I saw this rather lengthy NYT piece today about trans men and FAAB non-binary folk at women's only colleges in the US, mostly focusing on Wellesley college. I have some pretty complicated feelings on the matter as it's a difficult area to say exactly what the rules should be, however excluding trans women while allowing trans men is utterly fucked. I think the policy should be something similar to what Wills College has, trans women allowed, all spectrum of FAAB allowed up until legal transition occurs.

I think the comments from some of the trans men in there about changing language, the assumption that students are women etc at a womens college is really going too far, there aren't very many places in the world like these and those assumptions are a key part of what they are trying to do. If you are a trans man, you are a man and shouldn't be at a womens college. If you are non-binary and find being referred to as a woman so triggering that it kicks off your dysphoria, you once again probably shouldn't be at a womens college where your very attendance is proclaiming to the world that you are a woman - coed colleges would be much more appropriate for you, and the argument for gender neutrality in the teaching approach there is very much legitimate.

In particular I perhaps should feel sorry for someone who has internalised transphobia and has a truckload of transmisogyny that would make this comment

But all I see is an asshole man that is trying to shit all over women, trans and cis, and demand access to their spaces. Fuck him.

I don't really understand the desire to stay in womens spaces as a trans guy, although I would absolutely understand and be on board with them fighting for access to men's spaces, but to me staying in the old space would feel like denying my identity and it seems like that is exactly what it does to them.

I hope this doesn't sound too hostile to trans guys, I'm kinda irritated by the attitude of several of them quoted in this piece but I realise they aren't representative of all trans guys and that the ones who do demand they retain access to these spaces tend to be a lot more visible than the majority who are just living their lives.

Also it blows my mind that TERFs think trans women are this huge threat to women and feminism to the point of outing and harassing a teen girl just trying to go to school, but are utterly silent on things like

Which kinda seems a lot more like an attack on womens institutions than just trying to live your life.

A trans man I know, informs me that there are trans men who cling to the views of rad fem lesbians/TERFs. The, "socialized as male", crap seems to resonate with them. I'll be speaking to him in the next day or two and see if I can get some further insight into this.

[karaddin]

I cry a lot because my physical anatomy does not match my preferred gender and sexuality.

I can't tell if you are sincere, high or trolling. If either of the latter two, and your post comes across as more likely to be one of these, with all due respect please leave the thread. I do spend a lot of time crying specifically because of this exact thing, and it's not exactly easy on my partner trying to hold me while I'm doing it. I don't have much tolerance for people who think they are funny on this issue.

If you are sincere then I'd suggest not conflating gender and sexuality like that, because people are liking to be cynical of where you are going with it.

[Sivin]

I can't tell if you are sincere, high or trolling. If either of the latter two, and your post comes across as more likely to be one of these, with all due respect please leave the thread. I do spend a lot of time crying specifically because of this exact thing, and it's not exactly easy on my partner trying to hold me while I'm doing it. I don't have much tolerance for people who think they are funny on this issue.

If you are sincere then I'd suggest not conflating gender and sexuality like that, because people are liking to be cynical of where you are going with it.

I am extremely intoxicated, and I apologize if I've wronged you or your cause. I was speaking as truthfully as I ever have. I do, in fact, cry often because I can easily envision a life which would be 'normal', but that life will never be mine. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what my gender identity and sexuality means. All I know is that all I've ever wanted is to sit on a couch and be held by a comforting male figure who loves me as surely as a woman as I love him as a man.

[karaddin]

Ok then, sorry for the initial negative response to your post. I'm happy to talk and help however I can although while highly intoxicated probably isn't going to be the best time for you to sort things out.

I find that most people have no fucking idea of what their gender identity is, so simply by feeling any dissonance you have more of an idea than most (for most it simply is there and matches). You've been in the military right? That's a pretty common option for people struggling with this, and the feeling that you could never have the life you'd like to envisage is a *very* common one - it's one I shared. From your last comment it seems like it's also pretty wrapped up in your sexuality for you, so I get why you conflated the two in your earlier post and it can take quite a bit of time to unravel the two and figure out what is coming from where.

I'll stop this post for now, but if you want some links to resources I'm more than happy to help out, or if you just want someone to talk to (here or in PM - both work, there is pretty much no question you could ask me here that I wouldn't be willing to answer in the public forum but you might be more comfortable in PM when you sober up).

[Galactus]

RE: Transition regret.

It should be noted that some (a lot?) of people regret the transition becuase it "didn't go far enough", we used to have a trans man (who drew wonderful art) on the boards who had surgery and then had it reversed because he didn't feel it made him "male enough". And he'd rather stay in a "female" body than be "almost mae" (as he saw it)

EDIT: Since said perosn is no longer on the board, AFAIK I have no idea what pronouns to use in this case.

[karaddin]

That's very much a problem for trans men as their surgery options are still very much less than ideal. Less of an issue with vaginoplasty, but there is absolutely still a risk of unsatisfactory outcomes. I'm sure if that happens to me I'll feel some measure of regret but not because the goal was wrong (inability to climax for example).

[Glaurung]

It isn't rage. I find the comments reassuring. Reassuring that perception of the world is correct.

Not really. Comments sections aren't a true indicator of real life. Comments sections are where the most radical, ignorant, and loud mouthed asshats go to reassure themselves of their ignorance. Sane people don't usually post in the comments sections. Probably a big reason why so many places now are simply doing away with comments sections.