Salafi Stannis Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well we've all heard GRRM's famous "no character is wholly good or evil" line, but I'm not convinced. One character I believe is likely wholly evil is Ramsay Snow, for obvious reasons, but I understand the opposing argument that he's a complex character and there might just be an iota of good buried deep inside him, wrapped up good in an emotional snuggie of sadism and brutality, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it. But what about the Mountain? He's just a cruel hulking brute, not exactly a complex character, he's just evil and stupid, and no, the "He's loyal to the Lannisters" excuse isn't a good trait. It's not good that he's loyal to a bunch of assholes who order him to murder smallfolk by the dozens and give him free reign to rape and torture as he pleases. Do you disagree? Or is there anyone else you think is wholly good or evil? Or just general thoughts please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think what makes someone wholly good or wholly evil is if they have no reasons for being evil or good. Ramsey's reason to be evil is for his father's approval while the Mountain's is because he has really bad headaches, which can easily make you mad. I'm not saying they're excuses, but they're reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think what makes someone wholly good or wholly evil is if they have no reasons for being evil or good. Ramsey's reason to be evil is for his father's approval while the Mountain's is because he has really bad headaches, which can easily make you mad. I'm not saying they're excuses, but they're reasons. He tortures rapes and murders indiscriminately for his fathers approval? He certainly wants his fathers approval but what he does he does for sick pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 How do we know what Ramsey does when not in sight of the POVs, there where people in history that interchanged moments of torture with moments of charity. If author who envisioned the character says he is not completely evil I think we should take his word, who knows Ramsey may became another Jamie yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowford Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well, I call BS on the concept of good or evil as long as you don't have a defined system of measurement. So there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword of the Morgan Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think both Ramsay and the Mountain are pure evil. Ramsay seeks his father approval, yes, but that just makes him human; it doesn't mean he can't be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think what makes someone wholly good or wholly evil is if they have no reasons for being evil or good. Ramsey's reason to be evil is for his father's approval while the Mountain's is because he has really bad headaches, which can easily make you mad. I'm not saying they're excuses, but they're reasons. So it ain't evil unless it's random and inexplicable? I don't buy it. So Ramsay has his motivation, big deal. So does Sauron. And Voldemort. And Satan. Purely evil characters often have some history that molded them that way, some goals they want to achieve, there is, usually, some logic to them. That in itself is no redeeming quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonnyscouse Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 No character is wholly good, but without doubt there are wholly evil characters, I can't see any good in the Bloody Mummers for another example to go with the OP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodofwinterfell Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I might be wrong - and I don't remember the source - but if I recall correctly, GRRM has said this about his viewpoint characters. That's why he could never write from the Mountain's or Ramsay's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 How do we know what Ramsey does when not in sight of the POVs, there where people in history that interchanged moments of torture with moments of charity. If author who envisioned the character says he is not completely evil I think we should take his word, who knows Ramsey may became another Jamie yet. Sorry, no. And if J.K. Rowling denies "Harry Potter" to be a fantasy series, I'll disregard that, too. Yes, the author might be wrong in the perception of his own creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscrowing Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Wholly evil implies that a character is incapable of good or some small iota of redemption, while a wholly good character would be incapable of hate, killing, subterfuge. Neither are good characteristics for a player in a story.Gregor - we don't ever see much of him apart from this monster of battle and rape - we don't understand his reasons or what drove him to it. It's possible that he is mentally deficient on the aspergers spectrum, combining with his size to make him an excellent tool for brutality. Let's remember that it's stated that Gregor is largely solitary, only leaving his estates to compete in tournaments or when called to battle. He also suffers from debilitating headaches and consumes lots of 'milk of the poly' which is basically morphine some of which might account for his insane temper. Not excuses, but reasons... Ramsay - clearly has his issues, reasons why he is the way he is. Product of a rape, lied to about his parentage, then handed the original Reek as a tutor/servant, who probably warped him in horrible ways. Psychologically speaking, Ramsay is taking his revenge on the world, while also trying to keep afloat in the way he was trained how, trying to identify with his father's house by embracing the concept of flaying.Basically what I'm saying is that while both are undoubtedly bad men, they are not necessarily innately so, being driven to cruelty and violence by the afflictions of their life. By the same token, both should be capable of some semblance of redemption (although this is unlikely in Gregor's case given that he's now an undead thing, possibly without a head), perhaps by saving an innocent and/or asking for forgiveness.Binary characters have no place in a story as complex and a world as well realised as ASoIaF, as all characters have backstories, motivations and reactions to exceptional circumstance that cannot be ruled to a simple scale of good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Everyone in asoiaf is evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm the Party Pooper Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Everyone in asoiaf is evilI will probably give a more comprehensive answer later on, but for now I think this is probably the best input o can give to the discussion : http://gameoflaughs.tumblr.com/post/49975853131/littlefingers-evil-monologue-to-varys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Eh, there's been some cardboard cut-outs of 'bad guys' and 'good guys'. It's going to happen when you have such an expansive world with soooo many characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 "The Villain is the Hero of his own story." There is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 That's way I would like Ramsey POV it would be hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickrs Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 B-But Ramsay is into fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well, if I had to choose the "most evil", recognizing that they have a few good points:1. Petyr Baelish.2. Tywin Lannister3. Ramsay Bolton Most good:1. Davos Seaworth2. Samwell Tarly4. Catelyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandrakeWench Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Good and evil are relative. What seems good to you, might seem evil to me, depending on circumstances. Ergo I'd concur that nobody could possible be wholly good or wholly evil. Good and evil are characterizations that we as humans utilize; such states cannot be clearly defined as, say, black or white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Good and evil are relative. What seems good to you, might seem evil to me, depending on circumstances. Ergo I'd concur that nobody could possible be wholly good or wholly evil. Good and evil are characterizations that we as humans utilize; such states cannot be clearly defined as, say, black or white. Is it? OK, let's argue how exactly letting your dog rape your wife is "relative". I honestly do not see moral ambiguity here, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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