R+L=J v. 102

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If prophecy is going to fuck with anyone, the issue may not actually be about the identity of the promised savior, but about the things he/she has to do, or rather, whether he/she will accept his/her destiny. That will be a lot more interesting that the question who is supposed to be the savior from the point of view of some dead people with very unclear visions about the things to come, don't you think...?

Yes indeed, much more interesting. Well said!

I'm just going to go ahead and say it:

There is no way that I'll believe that a dragon is a prophesied hero that will save the world. That's just ridiculous and makes no narrative sense whatsoever.

Do you not think Jon might qualify as a dragon? Or Dany?

.

[RumHam]

...well, you know, it could be a sword. Just maybe XD

Everyone is expecting an actual sword. The forging of the original sword is described in detail. Azor Azai Reborn is called a 'warrior'. Dragon Steel kills the others. Jon is an excellent swordsman who has a special sword and has practiced very hard to hone his skills. Jon has a dream about holding a flaming sword.

I think it will be an actual sword.

But even if Jon is the best swordsman ever and his modern Lightbringer sword cuts through others like butter you have to ask yourself, will this turn the tide of a war? Even if he also had armor that made him invincible it's hard to believe that one man with one awesome sword could defeat the coming long night just by virtue of having "Lightbringer."

[sj4iy]

But even if Jon is the best swordsman ever and his modern Lightbringer sword cuts through others like butter you have to ask yourself, will this turn the tide of a war? Even if he also had armor that made him invincible it's hard to believe that one man with one awesome sword could defeat the coming long night just by virtue of having "Lightbringer."

I never said the dragons wouldn't be important. I just don't think they fit the 'Lightbringer' prophesies.

And whether it's dragons or swords, neither of them will turn the tide on a war without thousands of people fighting alongside with them.

[sj4iy]

Do you not think Jon might qualify as a dragon? Or Dany?

They are both dragons. But the words 'prince' and 'princess' work just as well for both of them without having to change anything at all.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes that makes sense, but a dragon on its own, sans rider or warg, doesn't. And even then, is it the dragon or is Jon warged as dragon.

(Sorry just getting to this, my phone ran out of juice while I was at beach),

If I had to guess what this might look like, I will use another work very similar to this one, and again it's "Dune." Leto Atreides and Jon share many similar parallels as does Rhaegar and Paul Atreides.

"Thus, after spending time amongst a variety of fringe Fremen elements, including The Preacher, Leto accepted sand trout upon his body and began the conversion into a human-sandworm hybrid. This transformation (which, at the beginning, was essentially a form of exoskeleton), boosted Leto's strength, reflexes and speed immensely, and he was able to move across large distances on foot."- Dune Wiki

Shai Halud, or the desert worm holds the same power and "magic" that the dragons do in Martins world. Leto morphed into the creature in order to follow "golden path," or his destiny.

Dany woke the dragons, but Jon may hold the power to become one, resting them from Danys control, which he may need to if she ends up taking a darker path.

If Jon wargs a dragon, given the magic nature of the both families bloodlines it means that he doesn't simply "control" the dragon but becomes one with it where the two are almost indistinguishable, thus putting man and creature on a more equal footing.

But, as sixskins warns, if it goes too far then the possibility is that the man is lost.

(Of course Jon needs to find out who/what he is first).

BTW, I'm not saying this happened, but, I'm open to the possibility.

First, the app is accurate up to certain point. it says Jon's place of death and that he's Ned's son. It says the true that it's believed. With that in mind, maybe is thought or assumed, that Arthur and Oswell were part of Rhaegar's plan of abducting her. Because, the app also said "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" and we know that is pretty much not true at all.

If that bit of info has a bit of true, I'd say is Rhaegar and his KG actually looking for her, not abducting her.

Yes, Brandon heard the rumours, and there is a chance that was ONLY a rumour, and his actions turned the rumour into the half truth we all know now.

Now, what was Rhaegar doing? Maybe, he was still on his way to Dorne when he received the news of what was happening in KL. If his original intentions were actually being away from Varys, and his meeting with Lyanna happened after that, it kinda fits.

People assumes:

- Rhaegar took Lyanna because he wanted to have another kid.

- Lyanna accepted, selfishly

What I believe could have happened

- Rhaegar left to plan taking down his father away from Varys.

- Brandon believes something isn't true. He goes to KL.

- Rhaegar finds out about it, and decided to try to find her before continuing to Dorne, because, after all, we're talking about a missing Lady here, a lady he knew and realised it was a good person.

If that happened, then he couldn't either take her back to her family, specially if they finally got to Dorne by the time Rickard and Brandon were dead, and Ned was wanted by the King. By the time they got to Dorne, marriages, sex, prophecies, babies and everything related just happen.

And I think this could be a chance, because, without using the word "white-washing", it kinda release them from any selfish action, and it fits Rhaegar's personality the most. It also fits Ned's words of saying she and Brandon got wolf blood: maybe Lyanna simply said "fuck Robert" and tried to run away (a la Alys Karstark) and Brandon assumed the worst out of concern.

I tend to think that Lyanna was staying at Harrenhal, (perhaps by Rhaegars discreet request), where she could be watched by the Whents, so by the time Brandons wedding came along, (and assuming hers would follow soon after. as well as coinciding with the news Elia was barren), he chose that time to go after her.

I don't think its outside the realm of possibility that when Rhaegar was supposedly paying a visit to Summerhall, he was going to Harrenhal.

I do wonder what ever happened to the young Whent daughter?

Also, the reason that Alys ran, wasn't it to save her birthright, which is why she ran from one marriage and got into another one? I honestly don't remember.

[RumHam]

I never said the dragons wouldn't be important. I just don't think they fit the 'Lightbringer' prophesies.

And whether it's dragons or swords, neither of them will turn the tide on a war without thousands of people fighting alongside with them.

Well see if we accept for a second that lightbringer is the dragons (who Daenerys "drew from the fire" after ((granted unwillingly*)) sacrificing Drogo as the red star bled) then I think their turning the tide of the war makes perfect sense. If anything it's too predictable. The others invade and overrun mankind thinking "dragons don't exist anymore" and then Daenerys shows up with Jon and whoever on the three dragons and they kick ass. Now I don't know that it will go quite that way, maybe someone will go wrong and Daenerys and Drogon will end up wighted on the other side. who knows. But I really doubt Lightbringer is just a sword. (Just like I doubt Azor Ahai is reborn in just one person.)

Edit: *While she did not consciously know what she was doing, she did have those dreams. I think we can all agree that she would not have done that whole dragon hatching ceremony without her dreams. "If I look back, I am lost."

[sj4iy]

Well see if we accept for a second that lightbringer is the dragons (who Daenerys "drew from the fire" after ((granted unwillingly*)) sacrificing Drogo as the red star bled) then I think their turning the tide of the war makes perfect sense. If anything it's too predictable. The others invade and overrun mankind thinking "dragons don't exist anymore" and then Daenerys shows up with Jon and whoever on the three dragons and they kick ass. Now I don't know that it will go quite that way, maybe someone will go wrong and Daenerys and Drogon will end up wighted on the other side. who knows. But I really doubt Lightbringer is just a sword. (Just like I doubt Azor Ahai is reborn in just one person.)

Edit: *While she did not consciously know what she was doing, she did have those dreams. I think we can all agree that she would not have done that whole dragon hatching ceremony without her dreams. "If I look back, I am lost."

Well, I definitely don't think it will be 'just' a sword. It will be a friggen' amazing sword. But a sword nevertheless. I just think there's way too much built up about swords and Jon and Azor Ahai for it to be a metaphor. The clear indication that a person is AAR is that they have a burning sword. I've not seen ONE person in the entire story suggest that dragons = metaphor for sword. Nobody. Surely someone would have put two and two together after 4 books, but nope. So, I'm sticking with the sword theory unless something comes along to radically alter my perception of the prophesy.

And if I had to throw out my 'thing I want to see happen', I would think Jon slaying the Great Other/Nights King with a flaming sword would be the MOST awesome thing that could ever happen. Ever. (Story wise, of course).

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

They are both dragons. But the words 'prince' and 'princess' work just as well for both of them without having to change anything at all.

So then, do you think the prophecy actually referred to the Prince, or to the Princess that was Promised? Could it refer to one of the Martells?

Or, did you like the idea of the Valyrian Noble that was Promised? In which case, it might refer to someone from House Velaryon?

.

[RumHam]

Well, I definitely don't think it will be 'just' a sword. It will be a friggen' amazing sword. But a sword nevertheless. I just think there's way too much built up about swords and Jon and Azor Ahai for it to be a metaphor. The clear indication that a person is AAR is that they have a burning sword. I've not seen ONE person in the entire story suggest that dragons = metaphor for sword. Nobody. Surely someone would have put two and two together after 4 books, but nope. So, I'm sticking with the sword theory unless something comes along to radically alter my perception of the prophesy.

I think the idea is that in the case of Lightbringer a sword is a metaphor for dragons. When you take into consideration the translations between various languages this doesn't seem so unlikely. In one language "sword" might be the only word they have for the idea of "weapon." We do know that some of the ancient civilizations used glyphs instead of letters, which complicates matters. I personally think that the prophecy is originally Valyrian, a "dragon dream" thousands of years before Daenys the Dreamer.

[sj4iy]

So then, do you think the prophecy actually referred to the Prince, or to the Princess that was Promised? Could it refer to one of the Martells?

Or, did you like the idea of the Valyian Noble that was Promised? In which case, it might refer to someone from House Velaryon?

Prince. Or Princess. I doubt it's being specific about this bloodline or that bloodline.

And we know for a fact that the Prince that was Promised will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella...but that is a different prophecy.

[sj4iy]

I think the idea is that in the case of Lightbringer a sword is a metaphor for dragons. When you take into consideration the translations between various languages this doesn't seem so unlikely. In one language "sword" might be the only word they have for the idea of "weapon." We do know that some of the ancient civilizations used glyphs instead of letters, which complicates matters. I personally think that the prophecy is originally Valyrian, a "dragon dream" thousands of years before Daenys the Dreamer.

Eh, I'm not going to take translation errors into consideration because we don't know if there even are any to start with. That's making assumptions without any reason to do so.

Everyone's expecting a sword- Aemon, Melisandre, Thoros, Saan, etc. I will expect a sword, too.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If I had to guess what this might look like, I will use another work very similar to this one, and again it's "Dune." Leto Atreides and Jon share many similar parallels as does Rhaegar and Paul Atreides.

"Thus, after spending time amongst a variety of fringe Fremen elements, including The Preacher, Leto accepted sand trout upon his body and began the conversion into a human-sandworm hybrid. This transformation (which, at the beginning, was essentially a form of exoskeleton), boosted Leto's strength, reflexes and speed immensely, and he was able to move across large distances on foot."- Dune Wiki

Shai Halud, or the desert worm holds the same power and "magic" that the dragons do in Martins world. Leto morphed into the creature in order to follow "golden path," or his destiny.

Dany woke the dragons, but Jon may hold the power to become one, resting them from Danys control, which he may need to if she ends up taking a darker path.

If Jon wargs a dragon, given the magic nature of the both families bloodlines it means that he doesn't simply "control" the dragon but becomes one with it where the two are almost indistinguishable, thus putting man and creature on a more equal footing.

But, as sixskins warns, if it goes too far then the possibility is that the man is lost.

(Of course Jon needs to find out who/what he is first).

Oh, I like this. It's been a looong time since I've read Dune, and (so far, at least) it's hard to imagine Martin using "big magic" in that way... but I do like it. And frankly, the magic in Westeros has already begun to take a more active, more obvious role.

[RumHam]

Eh, I'm not going to take translation errors into consideration because we don't know if there even are any to start with. That's making assumptions without any reason to do so.

But we do, the prince vs princess/gender neutral term thing. It then stands to reason there could be other translation errors that result from an "oversimplification" of the original text or mistranslation over the centuries.

[mambru]

That is a distortion, it is not turned to, it is looked to. Corrected it for you. The other is suggesting that Ashara had a sexual relationship with a Stark, when all we have is a suggestion that she looked to Stark (as in house Stark) for something that Barristan wished she had looked to him for. He has just restated his chastity, too.

"But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come of telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she had looked to me instead of Stark?"

So we're told very clearly that Ashara had had a sexual relationship at Harrenhal with someone who had seduced her, dishonored her and gotten her pregnant. We're told very clearly that Barristan loved Ashara. And we're told very clearly that he regrets not expressing his feelings through that wreath. Barristan sees that gift as an expression of love - and IMO, he believes that if he HAD expressed his love through that gift, she would have looked to him instead of Stark - looked for what she had sought from Stark - romantic love. I'd say it's pretty clear that Barristan thinks she had been seduced into a sexual relationship with romancing by a Stark, and wished he himself had been the one to draw her gaze instead into a romantic relationship - with the romantic gesture of crowning HER queen of love and beauty. So I do think I have a strong textual basis for saying the gesture is erotically charged.

Oh, heavens! Was every award of a crown to the new Miss USA, Miss Universe, etc. always a romantic gesture? :P

Are the judges "publically declaring his romantic interest in her"?

Dude, this isn't the Miss Universe competition, and Rhaegar isn't Donald Trump (otherwise I'd find him more offputting than I already do.) It is not purported to be an objective judging of appearance alone. It's the "Queen of Love and Beauty." Men can give them to their sisters as a gesture of love, to their hostess or female royalty as a gesture of courtesy. But single men often give them to women they fancy as a romantic gesture (see Barristan above, and Jorah Mormont, and others). But Rhaegar is married. Rhaegar could have given the wreath to the hostess as a gesture of courtesy, to his wife as a gesture of conjugal love (which is politeness to affirm in public). Instead he rudely disregarded both those claims and gave it to Lyanna - which certainly shocked the spectators. Why should it shock them if this is supposed to be a dispassionate, objective beauty contest? IMO, it isn't; and by crowning Lyanna the Queen of LOVE and Beauty, above the claim of the woman who's supposed to have his love he's declaring a romantic interest in Lyanna.

So, do tell me where Lyanna "condemned Robert for behaving like a dog".

Lyanna expressed disapproval of Robert's likelihood of not keeping to one bed. Does "tomcatting" suit you better as a paraphrase?

Now I remember why I ignore you. Another distortion. If the child is legitmate, he is a Targaryen, not a Stark.

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant a legitimate Targaryen half-brother of Stark descent (Jon), who would be a threat to his older Targaryen half-brother of Martell descent (Aegon), because Rickard Stark (described as ambitious) could use the resources of himself and his allies to press the claim of Jon over Aegon.

Do you not think that Rhaegar intended to honor Lyanna's bravery and skill as the KotLT?

As I said before, I think that if a woman has honed her martial skill in secret and wants to keep it that way, a gift of, say, a sword of Valyrian steel in secret would be much more a propos in honoring her bravery and skill than publically honoring her for Love and Beauty (qualities that have nothing to do with bravery and skill), thus putting an awkward spotlight on her as having drawn the inappropriate attention of a married man, and misogynist gossip would mark her as having somehow led him on.

[sj4iy]

But we do, the prince vs princess/gender neutral term thing. It then stands to reason there could be other translation errors that result from an "oversimplification" of the original text or mistranslation over the centuries.

Yes, but I don't like to make assumptions without basis. We could assume everything is mistranslated if we wanted to...but all we'd be doing is changing it based on our own opinions, because we would have nothing to base our changes off of.

We have seen the characters change the wording around of the different prophecies...'bleeding star' to 'bleeding stars' to 'red star', etc. So which is the real one? We don't know...we CAN'T know without more information. Hence why I won't take translation errors into account without a reason to do so.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm a bit scientific in my approach XD

[Haven19]

Welcome to RLJ and welcome to the boards!

As to your last point, at this stage in the game, I really have very little fear that RLJ is going to be false.

Lol I totally agree. I've never been more convinced. And thank you, glad to be here. (Hope I did this quote thing correctly)

[RumHam]

Yes, but I don't like to make assumptions without basis. We could assume everything is mistranslated if we wanted to...but all we'd be doing is changing it based on our own opinions, because we would have nothing to base our changes off of.

We have seen the characters change the wording around of the different prophecies...'bleeding star' to 'bleeding stars' to 'red star', etc. So which is the real one? We don't know...we CAN'T know without more information. Hence why I won't take translation errors into account without a reason to do so.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm a bit scientific in my approach XD

I can certainly respect that. Part of the scientific method is interpreting the evidence objectively. I will entertain the validity of theories that Daenerys is not Azhor Ahai reborn to wake dragons from stone. But you'd have to show me an argument strong enough to counter the fact that she did actually wake dragons from stone while the red star bled. "It's too obvious" is not a good argument. Not in science, and not in literature.

Again, I think it is her and Jon and probably Tyrion or Aegon.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, I like this. It's been a looong time since I've read Dune, and (so far, at least) it's hard to imagine Martin using "big magic" in that way... but I do like it. And frankly, the magic in Westeros has already begun to take a more active, more obvious role.

Yeah, reading Herbert is a little trippy, but I was drawn to Martins work because it is so similar in scope and detail as well as similar themes of mysticism and human conflict, though Herbert offers the same warnings of following the charismatic, "messianic" figure.

(And Leto also marries his sister Ghanima).

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVxjwwQdUg0kAfgpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0a2k5azRvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1NNRTU5M18x?p=leto+the+golden+path&tnr=21&vid=16AC82A1DCC8A3323CC116AC82A1DCC8A3323CC1&l=217&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608012205099257152%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdgKMqwVjg7s&sigr=11a7b4pqc&tt=b&tit=Golden+Path-The+beginning+of+knowledge+is+the+discovery+of+...&sigt=11ufshnic&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dleto%2Bthe%2Bgolden%2Bpath%26type%3DA011US605%26fr%3Dmcafee&sigb=12oq5gkad

[sj4iy]

I can certainly respect that. Part of the scientific method is interpreting the evidence objectively. I will entertain the validity of theories that Daenerys is not Azhor Ahai reborn to wake dragons from stone. But you'd have to show me an argument strong enough to counter the fact that she did actually wake dragons from stone while the red star bled. "It's too obvious" is not a good argument. Not in science, and not in literature.

Again, I think it is her and Jon and probably Tyrion or Aegon.

I completely agree that just based on the checklist of signs, Dany fits Azor Ahai Reborn better than anyone else. And it could very well be her (I absolutely hate the 'it's too obvious' argument because it's meaningless except Agatha Christie novels). But if you take other pieces of evidence into consideration, the situation becomes much murkier. We have Melisandre's vision where she specifically asks to see R'hollor's 'instrument', and is shown Jon Snow. And she mentions that this isn't the first time it has happened, either. We have Jon partially fulfilling the prophecy when he is stabbed. We have Jon's dream about being armored in black ice (which I take to mean obsidian) and holding a flaming swords as he fights the wights. We have bits of foreshadowing like his comment that a sword that makes its own heat would be a 'fine thing on the Wall'.

AAR and TPTWP could very well be the same person or two completely different people. They could BE two people fulfilling the same role. Dany and Jon are, at this point in the story, our only two real contenders based on the evidence. But it's a coin toss right now...and if I had to pick one, I would say it's Jon because of the dream and Melisandre's vision. I think those are our two closest pieces of direct evidence for AAR.

[BearQueen87]

If Jon wargs a dragon, given the magic nature of the both families bloodlines it means that he doesn't simply "control" the dragon but becomes one with it where the two are almost indistinguishable, thus putting man and creature on a more equal footing.

But, as sixskins warns, if it goes too far then the possibility is that the man is lost.

I agree that Jon will most likely warg fire dragon.