R+L=J v. 102

[Haven19]

I think R+L=J is a very plausible theory. It just makes so much sense.. This isn't just something that I happened to come across either, it was actually my own thought which occurred to me while I was studying Robert's Rebellion one day, so I decided to look it up and found that other fans were WAY ahead of me.
However, if R+L=J turns out not to be the case and Jon isn't the son of Ice & Fire, then we'll be in for a whole other surprise when learning the answers to all these mysterious questions like "What lie has Ned been living for 14 years? What did Lyanna make Ned promise her? And how do we find these answers out with Lyanna & Ned both dead?"

[sj4iy]

<snip>

...how is a dragon going to lead humanity against the Others?

[BearQueen87]

It is equally possible that the prophecy will be fulfilled by an actual dragon - with great leathery wings, scales, and breath of flame. That's not a conclusion that Aemon (or Rhaegar) would have anticipated years ago, when everyone knew that the dragons were dead. But it is absolutely a possibility in this story, now that magic (and dragons themselves) have returned to the world.

This is where you loose me. How can a literal dragon be TP(D)TWP? If the role of TPTWP is go against the Others in the War for the Dawn, then the dragon--while a smart beast, I'm sure--needs a rider to direct it. It's not going to go flying toward the Wall to fight of its own accord. And even then, it's a weapon in the hands of whomever is riding it. Hence why some think the dragon is really Lightbringer.

And what about the idea that TPTWP needs to be from Aerys and Rhaella's line. I know Dany calls herself the mother of dragons, but her 3 kiddies aren't actually genetically linked to Aerys and Rhaella, right?

[BearQueen87]

I think R+L=J is a very plausible theory. It just makes so much sense.. This isn't just something that I happened to come across either, it was actually my own thought which occurred to me while I was studying Robert's Rebellion one day, so I decided to look it up and found that other fans were WAY ahead of me.

However, if R+L=J turns out not to be the case and Jon isn't the son of Ice & Fire, then we'll be in for a whole other surprise when learning the answers to all these mysterious questions like "What lie has Ned been living for 14 years? What did Lyanna make Ned promise her? And how do we find these answers out with Lyanna & Ned both dead?"

Welcome to RLJ and welcome to the boards!

As to your last point, at this stage in the game, I really have very little fear that RLJ is going to be false.

[Alia of the knife]

If Jon has both Dragon and warg in his bloodline, the ability to become one literally, with a dragon, giving it human intelligence, I'd say replaces sorcery very effectively.

[BearQueen87]

If Jon has both Dragon and warg in his bloodline, the ability to become one literally, with a dragon, giving it human intelligence, I'd say replaces sorcery very effectively.

Yes that makes sense, but a dragon on its own, sans rider or warg, doesn't. And even then, is it the dragon or is Jon warged as dragon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Question, inspired by another thread.

Does the timeline fits for Lyanna not being with Rhaegar by the time Brandon went for him to KL?

What I mean is that, what if Lyanna was actually not with Rhaegar at all, and when he heard the news of Brandon being imprisoned and Rickard being summoned, he actually left ToJ to go and find her because, unlike Brandon, he realised the priority there was to keep the girl safe from danger?

ETA: the app says something like he took Dayne and Whent to retrieve her, right? maybe he did, but not from Winterfell.

[stateofdissipation]

Ah, I see. At least, I think I see. Let's see... :idea:

So far, nobody in the conversation has spoken Valyrian. You and I are corresponding in English. Maester Aemon spoke of this prophecy in the Common Tongue. George Martin recounts that speech to us in English. So I would not assume that the word "prince" was included in a Valyrian translation. More likely, the Valyrian translation itself used the word dragon... and then 2 things happened to confuse the issue:

1. the Valyrian word for "dragon" was a gendered noun (masculine); and

the word "dragon" was used as a metonym for the Valyrian dragonlords themselves

Under those conditions, for Valyrians, the word dragon would have been a term associated with politically powerful families and individuals - particularly men. And we see this with the Targaryens, once they come to Westeros. By the time Dunk and Egg are traipsing around, once the actual dragons have died off, the only practical use of the word dragon is this one: it becomes nearly synonymous Targaryen prince:

From Mystery Knight:

Spoiler

"And who are you to tell the King's Hand what to do?"

Egg did not flinch. "You know who I am, cousin."

"Your squire is insolent, ser," Lord Rivers said to Dunk. "You ought to beat that out of him."

"I've tried, m’lord. He's a prince, though."

"What he is," said Bloodraven, “Is a dragon...

The phrase "Valyrian noble" was J. Stargaryen's suggestion for an acceptable phrase that would (1) replace the word "prince;" and (2) allow for Maester Aemon's decision that the word "princess" would work just as well. It was not my suggestion, and I don't think it works. Martin's emphasis on the republican nature of the Valyrian Freehold (and the absence of kings and emporers) might will support my point. But the primary reason "Valyrian noble" doesn't work is that Aemon's revelation is primarily one based on observations of dragon biology (or dragon gender identity). It's not a revelation based solely on issues of grammatical gender.

“No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.... What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." (4.35, SAMWELL)

Aemon sees that "the language misled" scholars into making unfounded translational assumptions about gender. But the reason those assumptions are wrong is because dragons are "neither male nor female."

I do think Aemon draws the wrong conclusion in the end. Or, rather, that he doesn't quite reach the full implications of his own reasoning. It's not that Dany couldn't be "the dragon that was promised" - she definitely could. It's that the prophecy isn't necessarily referring to a human at all - and the choices for interpretation are not limited to only (a) Prince of Targaryen blood; or ( B) Princess of Targaryen blood. It is equally possible that the prophecy will be fulfilled by an actual dragon - with great leathery wings, scales, and breath of flame. That's not a conclusion that Aemon (or Rhaegar) would have anticipated years ago, when everyone knew that the dragons were dead. But it is absolutely a possibility in this story, now that magic (and dragons themselves) have returned to the world.

In the end, I like to think that Aemon would have arrived at something close to this conclusion himself, had he lived long enough to see the dragons, and to hear Dany's story. Because, as he says himself, "the dragons prove it." What he might not have understood - in part, because I'm not sure I myself understand the process - is the idea that the Dragon that was Promised may have been Rhaego.

Ah, I see. At least, I think I see. Let's see... :idea:

You asked or commented that you did not know where a statement came from.... it had two parts your older post and a SSM... I provided both just to be sure..

“No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.... What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." (4.35, SAMWELL)

Apparently finding the prophecy is not that remarkable.... it has been studied for at least a thousand years.

Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. no one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"--aSoS chapter 8

The prophecy was known, Rhaegar apparently "found" something that led him to believe that he was the prince that was promised. That may or may not have been the prophecy itself. It was clearly related to the prophecy.

There are lots and lots of problems with ancient history... for example Cleopatra was born closer to the moon landing than the creation of the great pyramids. The maesters speak of history having knights fighting battles a thousand years before there were knights. The major religions (marriage) and political practices (nobility and titles) have changed significantly... in the last few thousand years. Would one expect a prophecy from ancient Egypt to include a road map of the route between San Francisco and New York City? or Presidents and Prime Ministers?

To assume it was written in terms of the present structure of westeros appears to be foolish.

[RumHam]

Yes that makes sense, but a dragon on its own, sans rider or warg, doesn't. And even then, is it the dragon or is Jon warged as dragon.

I guess Jon could survive his current predicament somehow, then die later on and have his second life in one of the dragons. Maybe even keep his consciousness cause hey magic somehow.

[BearQueen87]

Question, inspired by another thread.

Does the timeline fits for Lyanna not being with Rhaegar by the time Brandon went for him to KL?

What I mean is that, what if Lyanna was actually not with Rhaegar at all, and when he heard the news of Brandon being imprisoned and Rickard being summoned, he actually left ToJ to go and find her because, unlike Brandon, he realised the priority there was to keep the girl safe from danger?

ETA: the app says something like he took Dayne and Whent to retrieve her, right? maybe he did, but not from Winterfell.

I think the app says that Dayne and Whent took Lyanna on Rhaegar's orders (someone correct me if I'm wrong). But yeah, we don't know from where, though I suspect it was near Harrenhal.

As to the rest...I'm not sure. I thought Dayne and Whent met up with Rhaegar pretty soon after the "abduction" and they all went to the TOJ together.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Question, inspired by another thread.

Does the timeline fits for Lyanna not being with Rhaegar by the time Brandon went for him to KL?

What I mean is that, what if Lyanna was actually not with Rhaegar at all, and when he heard the news of Brandon being imprisoned and Rickard being summoned, he actually left ToJ to go and find her because, unlike Brandon, he realised the priority there was to keep the girl safe from danger?

ETA: the app says something like he took Dayne and Whent to retrieve her, right? maybe he did, but not from Winterfell.

Brandon went to KL because of rumours that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna. That means that Lyanna had already disappared.

Why would Rhaegar be at ToJ before taking Lyanna?

I agree that she might have disappeared from a location other than Winterfell. I personally find Winterfell as the place of her disappearance highly unlikely. I suspect it was Harrenhal.

Edit:

Here is the quote form the app

Sometime later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent .

[BearQueen87]

Edit:

Here is the quote form the app

Hmm. That makes it seem like Rhaegar was with Dayne and Whent at the time, not waiting for Lyanna and the 2KG to come to him at some other location.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm. That makes it seem like Rhaegar was with Dayne and Whent at the time, not waiting for Lyanna and the 2KG to come to him at some other location.

It does, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't previously arranged and agreed upon by both parties.

Is it possible that Lyanna might not have known the "when" of leaving with Rhaegar, only the fact that "she would eventually, prior to her marriage" leave with Rhaegar?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

BTW, I'm not saying this happened, but, I'm open to the possibility.

Brandon went to KL because of rumours that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna. That means that Lyanna had already disappared.

Why would Rhaegar be at ToJ before taking Lyanna?

I agree that she might have disappeared from a location other than Winterfell. I personally find Winterfell as the place of her disappearance highly unlikely. I suspect it was Harrenhal.

Edit:

Here is the quote form the app

First, the app is accurate up to certain point. it says Jon's place of death and that he's Ned's son. It says the true that it's believed. With that in mind, maybe is thought or assumed, that Arthur and Oswell were part of Rhaegar's plan of abducting her. Because, the app also said "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" and we know that is pretty much not true at all.

If that bit of info has a bit of true, I'd say is Rhaegar and his KG actually looking for her, not abducting her.

Yes, Brandon heard the rumours, and there is a chance that was ONLY a rumour, and his actions turned the rumour into the half truth we all know now.

Now, what was Rhaegar doing? Maybe, he was still on his way to Dorne when he received the news of what was happening in KL. If his original intentions were actually being away from Varys, and his meeting with Lyanna happened after that, it kinda fits.

People assumes:

- Rhaegar took Lyanna because he wanted to have another kid.

- Lyanna accepted, selfishly

What I believe could have happened

- Rhaegar left to plan taking down his father away from Varys.

- Brandon believes something isn't true. He goes to KL.

- Rhaegar finds out about it, and decided to try to find her before continuing to Dorne, because, after all, we're talking about a missing Lady here, a lady he knew and realised it was a good person.

If that happened, then he couldn't either take her back to her family, specially if they finally got to Dorne by the time Rickard and Brandon were dead, and Ned was wanted by the King. By the time they got to Dorne, marriages, sex, prophecies, babies and everything related just happen.

And I think this could be a chance, because, without using the word "white-washing", it kinda release them from any selfish action, and it fits Rhaegar's personality the most. It also fits Ned's words of saying she and Brandon got wolf blood: maybe Lyanna simply said "fuck Robert" and tried to run away (a la Alys Karstark) and Brandon assumed the worst out of concern.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, I doubt that Brandon, upon hearing "Lyanna disappeared" would simply believe that Rhaegar must have had something to do with it.

I think that whoever told Brandon about Lyanna, it must have been someone he trusted.. at least to a certain degree.. Because Brandon might have been rash, but would he truly believe some random guy who walks up to him and tells him "Rhaegar took your sister".?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, I doubt that Brandon, upon hearing "Lyanna disappeared" would simply believe that Rhaegar must have had something to do with it.

I think that whoever told Brandon about Lyanna, it must have been someone he trusted.. at least to a certain degree.. Because Brandon might have been rash, but would he truly believe some random guy who walks up to him and tells him "Rhaegar took your sister".?

But they had "history", so to speak. The infamous crowning.

[BearQueen87]

It does, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't previously arranged and agreed upon by both parties.

Is it possible that Lyanna might not have known the "when" of leaving with Rhaegar, only the fact that "she would eventually, prior to her marriage" leave with Rhaegar?

That makes sense and seems possible.

Well, I doubt that Brandon, upon hearing "Lyanna disappeared" would simply believe that Rhaegar must have had something to do with it.

I think that whoever told Brandon about Lyanna, it must have been someone he trusted.. at least to a certain degree.. Because Brandon might have been rash, but would he truly believe some random guy who walks up to him and tells him "Rhaegar took your sister".?

But if the 2KG took her, then it's not a far stretch for Brandon to assume Rhaegar was behind it.

[lareine]

[BearQueen87]

Lareine, that's the second time I've seen you quote me on Elia but not say anything in response...?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...how is a dragon going to lead humanity against the Others?

How can a literal dragon be TP(D)TWP? If the role of TPTWP is go against the Others in the War for the Dawn...

Is that the role of the dragon that was promised? I'm not so sure... But look - I'm not arguing there's only one way to read or interpret this prophecy. I'm arguing that there are more possibilities than we typically assume. Jon may very well have dragon blood, and he may lead the battle against Mel's Great Other. (Or against the Others, even.) And maybe that fits someone's understanding of what this dragon-prince-that-was-promised is supposed to do. But I bet that's not the only way this stuff plays out. It may not even be the most interesting...

(And it's likely we've only heard half the prophecy anyway, if that!)

Ah, I see. At least, I think I see. Let's see... :idea:

You asked or commented that you did not know where a statement came from.... it had two parts your older post and a SSM... I provided both just to be sure..

Yeah - I got that. I should have said "thanks!" You helped me see where the misunderstanding might have happened... then I had to think how to explain myself more clearly. Thanks!