R+L=J v. 102

[stateofdissipation]

No, not at all. Not sure where you got that, but I'd be happy to clarify...

He got you suscribing to Valyria having nobles from:

The Snowfyre Chorus

Agreed. As I said in response to J. Stargaryen, I don't think "Valyrian Noble" goes far enough. For one thing, Valyrian Nobles were almost certainly either male or female. Whereas dragons, according to Aemon, are "neither male nor female... but now one and now the other."

He got the Valyrians did not have nobles from

The Freehold of Valyria is correct. Valyria at the zenith of its power was neither a kingdom nor an empire... or at least it had neither a king nor an emperor. It was more akin to the old Roman Republic, I suppose. In theory, the franchise included all "free holders," that is freeborn landowners. Of course in practice wealthy, highborn, and sorcerously powerful families came to dominate.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2999/

[MtnLion]

No, not at all. Not sure where you got that, but I'd be happy to clarify...

You say that you believe that the scroll said "Dragon" instead of "Prince". It doesn't make sense if it is a Valyrian translation, since Vayria had no princes or kings. The scroll indeed points to royalty, not a creature. Also, the Woods Witch verified that it is a male, in my opinion, and it will stay firmly that way.

[mambru]

Well I see it more as part of the KotLT incident...which IMO is a very big part of the QoLaB incident. He rode right back to Elia afterwards. He might have been sexually attracted to L, but that's not a sin. He went back to his wife and fathered a son.

It's not a sin in the legal sense, certainly. But it's a sin against his wife's dignity to insult her publically with the expression of that sexual attraction in front of a crowd of their peers. And according to Lyanna's own view (expressed prior to the tournament) that a husband who does not keep to his own bed is not being a good husband, it is also a sin...since by openly giving an extravagant token of romantic appreciation in public, you are expressing your willingness to go to someone else's bed besides your wife - even though Elia at that time was his perfectly fertile and functioning wife whom he was still having sex with at the time. But if Lyanna eventually went willingly with Rhaegar, it means she eventually accepted his overtures, even if they started with him acting like the same dog she'd condemned Robert for behaving like.

So I do think Lyanna was being a bit of a hypocrite in eventually accepting Rhaegar despite him displaying the same behavior she'd condemned in Robert. The only reason I'm bringing it up to begin with is that the idea of Lyanna being a woman of absolutely unyielding principles who would NEVER do anything wrong - and therefore she must've insisted on a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar, because Putting A Ring On It makes everything all right - doesn't seem backed up by the text, to me.

[Alia of the knife]

With all due respect, I think that no matter how honorable Rhaegar may have been, the idea that either he or Elia would have a choice on whether she would have children, especially based upon her health, is a fallacy.

I think Elia would have been desperate to become pregnant. In the Medieval world, fair or not, the sole function of a woman, (and even a man), in Rhaegar and Elias positions would be to secure the dynasty. (Even the likes of Loras, Renly and Joncon would not have a choice about securing the continuation of their bloodline even if they never visited their wifes bed again after begetting the heir).

The main value a woman brings with her is alliance/power, (or the perception of it), and most importantly her fertility. Her inability to secure the next dynasty would be the death knell of her influence and power at court, but particularly in the eyes of her husband, since, and again, fair or not, the woman was held most accountable for her ability to do so.

One of the main themes regarding Elia is the issue of her health, so when Joncon says she wasn't worthy, while a good bit might have been born of jealousy, I think her fertility and health was the main thing he was speaking to.

An excerpt from "Elizabeth of York, a Tudor Queen and her World:"

" The bodies of Queens,"(or would-be Queens), "were effectively public property, for their fertility was of prime importance to the nation and a legitimate object of speculation in courts, diplomatic circles noble households, taverns, and humble hovels. The swift arrival of an heir would go far toward assuring the stability of the Tudor dynasty, and it would immeasurably increase Elizabeth's standing with her husband the King, and the country at large." - Alison Weir

If Lyanna as second wife produced a son on her first pregnancy, or even twin boys, then her value begins to increase in the eyes of Rhaegar beyond just his heart, possibly taking the view that his actions were smiled upon by "providence" after all, and her value increases in the eyes of court as well. If a second pregnancy produces another male, then even Tywin has to throw his hands up in defeat and look to Viserys for Cersei, plotting from there.

But for Elia, her influence will begin to wain. I would not be surprised if their relationship did not become more stressed as time went along and no heir was produced no matter what was I'm sure a high regard and "fondness" for her on his part.

Do we know how quickly Elia became pregnant after her marriage to Rhaegar, for wasn't Rhaenys around two when he died at twenty-four?

[MtnLion]

1. It's not a sin in the legal sense, certainly.

But it's a sin against his wife's dignity to insult her publically with the expression of that sexual attraction in front of a crowd of their peers.

And according to Lyanna's own view (expressed prior to the tournament)

that a husband who does not keep to his own bed is not being a good husband,

it is also a sin...since by openly giving an extravagant token of romantic appreciation in public, you are expressing your willingness to go to someone else's bed

besides your wife - even though Elia at that time was his perfectly fertile and functioning wife whom he was still having sex with at the time.

But if Lyanna eventually went willingly with Rhaegar, it means she eventually accepted his overtures,

even if they started with him acting like the same dog she'd condemned Robert for behaving like.

1. I am not sure what "It" is, so I will pass on this statement.

Gotta go with this one, though I would not label it a "sin" so much as just an insult.

Lyanna's view was expressed at Winterfell. She expressed it to Ned who went directly to Harrenhal from the Eyrie. She expressed her opinion after the Tourney at Harrenhal, when Ned was relaying Robert's acceptance of the offer to Rickard.

Love is sweet, Ned, but it does not change a man's behavior. Nothing about husband and wife, there.

Who was the original QoLaB at the openning of the tourney. Who were the initial holders of the crown, and who did they intend to award it to? It is not a sexual symbol! It is a token of admiration. Last I heard awarding a lady with a prize was not necessarily a sexual act! Even Barristan notes that it would not have been a sexual expression if he had been able to defeat Rhaegar and award the crown to Ashara. ;)

Where do you get the inside information from Elia's bedroom? I would say that Rhaenys is six months old at about the time of the tourney, and I doubt there was much sex going on before the tourney, even though Elia was bedridden. (Or maybe that is how you take bedridden?)

It is not certain that it was not Rhaegar who went willingly along with Lyanna's plans . . .

I think that some of the views you express are a little distorted. Care to support this with textual refereces? I think not . . .

[BearQueen87]

It's not a sin in the legal sense, certainly. But it's a sin against his wife's dignity to insult her publically with the expression of that sexual attraction in front of a crowd of their peers. And according to Lyanna's own view (expressed prior to the tournament) that a husband who does not keep to his own bed is not being a good husband, it is also a sin...since by openly giving an extravagant token of romantic appreciation in public, you are expressing your willingness to go to someone else's bed besides your wife - even though Elia at that time was his perfectly fertile and functioning wife whom he was still having sex with at the time. But if Lyanna eventually went willingly with Rhaegar, it means she eventually accepted his overtures, even if they started with him acting like the same dog she'd condemned Robert for behaving like.

Well, something I've been saying for a long time now is that Elia knew what was going on, that Rhaegar explained everything either before or after. Elia is so silent thus far that I think there's more to her story. That may resolve some of the morality issues.

[sj4iy]

Well, something I've been saying for a long time now is that Elia knew what was going on, that Rhaegar explained everything either before or after. Elia is so silent thus far that I think there's more to her story. That may resolve some of the morality issues.

Yeah, for a woman scorned, we've heard absolutely nothing about her anger. It's very strange.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, for a woman scorned, we've heard absolutely nothing about her anger. It's very strange.

I've always found it odd that we had Elia's brother, with whom she was very close, appear in ASOS and not breathe one word about Elia's overall emotional state concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Re: everything Alia wrote. I know we've had this conversation before. I don't disagree with anything you said; that is totally how politics would work; I just think that throwing in prophecy, Rhaegar's supposed honor (cue Mambru throwing something at me), and Elia's own silence thus far means that the normative political ways are going to be pushed out the window.

[Alia of the knife]

Everyone has their methods for deciphering the clues, and don't get me wrong, I have my favorites with Lyanna and Arya, but I try to stay neutral and observe the motivations of the author to try to follow the breadcrumbs, and certainly history is one of them, as well as Martin's own views on prophecy and matters of human nature.

Martin has stated what is most important to him to write about.

I do agree the silence of some of the characters are intriguing, but I tread carefully with it bbecause it could be that the reveal is what determines the lack of reaction.

Martin did say the Martells were angry at Elias treatment, hence their less than enthusiastic response.

(And it would seem TV Oberyn was not very happy).

ALL smiles died, I would assume that meant not only Elias, but Lyannas as well.

[BearQueen87]

Martin has stated what is most important to him to write about.

I do agree the silence of some of the characters are intriguing, but I tread carefully with it bbecause it could be that the reveal is what determines the lack of reaction.

Martin did say the Martells were angry at Elias treatment, hence their less than enthusiastic response.

ALL smiles died, I would assume that meant not only Elias, but Lyannas as well.

I assume by "most important" you mean the conflicts of the heart? Even if Elia was in the know about Rhaegar and Lyanna (and prophecy) and was accepting of it, I don't think she was without conflict. As you've rightly pointed out many times, Elia still has a duty to her family and their position. Her conflict may not be of a romantic nature--ie: the spurned wife who's husband is off with another lady--but in trying to get her two brothers to understand that all this was planned and that Rhaegar himself knows what he's doing. Perhaps implausible given how Planetos politics work, I know.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Seems to me that riding past your own (still fertile and nonoffending) wife to deposit the Queen of Love and Beauty Wreath on another woman (or girl's) lap is certainly an open expression of romantic interest (with the possible increase of beds involved). The observers took it as such. Barristan took it as the beginning of the whole trouble - he even thinks to himself that IF ONLY he'd kicked Rhaegar's ass in that tournament the whole war might have been averted. That's how much significance he attaches to it as the beginning of their romance. And even if that romance did NOT continue in private till after the birth of Aegon (which I don't believe), the fact that we think Lyanna was still open to a romance with Rhaegar after he gave her that wreath means that she was likely emotionally moved and attracted to him, instead of writing him off in her thoughts with, "Oh, gods, what a sleazebag, his wife is right there. I thought he was different from Robert after that lovely song." Which, again, shows a bit of hypocrisy on her part.

It says, "She would bear no more children." It could mean either that another pregnancy would kill her, or that she had simply been rendered barren by the rigors of the last one. Either way, it wasn't true that she was infertile at the time of Harrenhal, and so it doesn't absolve Lyanna of the charge of being a bit of a hypocrite (not that I'm saying that's a mortal sin. I doubt any us can say we've NEVER been a bit of a hypocrite at some time in our lives).

The exact and full quote is

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

I bolded the important part.

• Rhaenys' birth was bad

Aegon's birth almost killed

Hmm... what would a third birth do to her?

1. I am not sure what "It" is, so I will pass on this statement.

Gotta go with this one, though I would not label it a "sin" so much as just an insult.

Lyanna's view was expressed at Winterfell. She expressed it to Ned who went directly to Harrenhal from the Eyrie. She expressed her opinion after the Tourney at Harrenhal, when Ned was relaying Robert's acceptance of the offer to Rickard.

Love is sweet, Ned, but it does not change a man's behavior. Nothing about husband and wife, there.

Who was the original QoLaB at the openning of the tourney. Who were the initial holders of the crown, and who did they intend to award it to? It is not a sexual symbol! It is a token of admiration. Last I heard awarding a lady with a prize was not necessarily a sexual act! Even Barristan notes that it would not have been a sexual expression if he had been able to defeat Rhaegar and award the crown to Ashara. ;)

Where do you get the inside information from Elia's bedroom? I would say that Rhaenys is six months old at about the time of the tourney, and I doubt there was much sex going on before the tourney, even though Elia was bedridden. (Or maybe that is how you take bedridden?)

It is not certain that it was not Rhaegar who went willingly along with Lyanna's plans . . .

I think that some of the views you express are a little distorted. Care to support this with textual refereces? I think not . . .

3. It isn't certain that the betrothal took place after the Tourney. It could also have taken place before. Harrenhal is currently the only event where we have Lyanna and Robert together, but there could have been other events. After the tourney, the weather might have turned to winter again too quickly for Ned to discuss the matter with Robert and return to Winterfell, and then make it back to the Eyrie again safely.

5. That would be Lady Shella Whent's daughter, whose name we have yet to learn.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

You say that you believe that the scroll said "Dragon" instead of "Prince". It doesn't make sense if it is a Valyrian translation, since Vayria had no princes or kings. The scroll indeed points to royalty, not a creature. Also, the Woods Witch verified that it is a male, in my opinion, and it will stay firmly that way.

According to "Sons of the Dragon" Valyria had princes.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-sons-of-the-dragon-reading-at-loncon-today/page-6

Incest was never tolerated by the Faith of the Seven. The Valyrians practiced incest. The dragonlords led the way, but the custom was not restricted to them. Sister to brother was supposed to be ideal, failing that uncle, aunts, nieces, nephews or cousins were chosen. Sorcerer princes also practiced polygamy, but that was not as common as incest.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

According to "Sons of the Dragon" Valyria had princes.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-sons-of-the-dragon-reading-at-loncon-today/page-6

Perhaps princes like Dorne has princes.. and Nymeria, the princess of the Rhoynar, and Prince Garin, and such..

[mambru]

It is not a sexual symbol! It is a token of admiration. Last I heard awarding a lady with a prize was not necessarily a sexual act! Even Barristan notes that it would not have been a sexual expression if he had been able to defeat Rhaegar and award the crown to Ashara. ;)

In our culture, giving flowers is not necessarily a sexual symbol...even on Valentine's day. But stepping past your wife and giving flowers to the prettiest girl in the room on Valentine's day? Will probably get you in trouble.

I'm...pretty sure I never called awarding the wreath a sex act in itself. I said it was a display of romantic, sexual interest. Barristan was certainly interested romantically in Ashara Dayne, as we judge from his thoughts - even if he intended to keep chaste, we can see the romance in his thoughts, and his desire that Ashara know of it, even if he never dared act on it. Though even that's not an absolute impossibility - haven't we heard that Lewyn Martell, one of the Last True KG, had a paramour? And didn't Barristan wistfully think to himself that IF ONLY he had kicked Rhaegar's ass and won that damned tournament and given Ashara the wreath she might have turned to HIM instead of Stark (with whom she apparently DID have a sexual relationship?)

Where do you get the inside information from Elia's bedroom? I would say that Rhaenys is six months old at about the time of the tourney, and I doubt there was much sex going on before the tourney, even though Elia was bedridden. (Or maybe that is how you take bedridden?)

Elia probably got pregnant soon after the tourney. That necessarily requires sex of some kind, don't you think? Therefore at the time of the tourney Elia was not known to be barren or otherwise reproductively inadequate - and therefore in expressing his romantic interest toward Lyanna at that time, Rhaegar IS NOT sticking to one bed, since he is in a sense making a romantic invitation to another woman in front of his wife while still having conjugal relations with that wife. He cannot know, nor can Lyanna, that Elia will be unfit for further children after the birth of Aegon, since the birth of Aegon is still months in the future.

Therefore in accepting Rhaegar romantically, Lyanna IS accepting a man who displayed interest in the same tomcatting behavior she condemned in Robert. So Lyanna's principles are NOT completely unyielding - which was the only point I wanted to make in bringing up the subject.

I think that some of the views you express are a little distorted. Care to support this with textual refereces? I think not . . .

Why, MtnLion, you judge me over-hastily. When, in our previous disagreements, have I ever refused to back up my views with textual references? Happily will I back up my "distorted" views with textual references, as soon as you explain what you mean by "distorted" views, or "this."

[Jon Weirgaryen]

In our culture, giving flowers is not necessarily a sexual symbol...even on Valentine's day.

What culture is that? It would be true for German culture - but when I asked for forgiveness for not bringing a Polish dancing partner flowers when we were going out dancing on Valentine's day, I was taught that by no means would I be allowed to give flowers to someone on Valentine's day, if I did not pursue romantic intentions. So it differs from here to there.

In our culture, giving flowers is not necessarily a sexual symbol...even on Valentine's day. But stepping past your wife and giving flowers to the prettiest girl in the room on Valentine's day? Will probably get you in trouble.

[...] - and therefore in expressing his romantic interest toward Lyanna at that time, Rhaegar IS NOT sticking to one bed, since he is in a sense making a romantic invitation to another woman in front of his wife while still having conjugal relations with that wife.

Strangely enough we don't see Ser Loras ravaging Sansa after he gives her the rose at the Tourney of the Hand nor do we learn of Renly freaking out.

[BearQueen87]

Elia probably got pregnant soon after the tourney. That necessarily requires sex of some kind, don't you think? Therefore at the time of the tourney Elia was not known to be barren or otherwise reproductively inadequate - and therefore in expressing his romantic interest toward Lyanna at that time, Rhaegar IS NOT sticking to one bed, since he is in a sense making a romantic invitation to another woman in front of his wife while still having conjugal relations with that wife. He cannot know, nor can Lyanna, that Elia will be unfit for further children after the birth of Aegon, since the birth of Aegon is still months in the future.

Nitpick: Elia was bed ridden for half a year after Rhaenys. She was obviously not healthy when it came to bearing children. So inadequate might be a step too far, but she wasn't The Mother Goddess either.

[mambru]

Strangely enough we don't see Ser Loras ravaging Sansa after he gives her the rose at the Tourney of the Hand nor do we learn of Renly freaking out.

He gave flowers to all the girls. That's not the crowning Sansa the Queen of Love and Beauty. (And it's worth noting that Sansa did clutch on to the scant clue that he gave her a RED rose to mean that maybe he WAS expressing romantic interest). And surely you don't believe it would matter to Renly whether Loras gave a mere woman the crown of Love and Beauty? I mean, Loras didn't freak out when Renly married his sister in front of him...he even helpfully carried naked Margaery to the wedding bed himself.

Surely you agree that lovers Renly and Loras are somewhat different from married Royals Rhaegar and Elia?

[Alia of the knife]

If Elia had been able to bear more children, there is no reason for the author to leave it out when he could have the Maesters say she could still do so, but her life would be forfeit.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

He gave flowers to all the girls. That's not the crowning Sansa the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Not quite. He tossed a white roses to maids in the crowd, but only to Sansa he rode up and gave a red rose, looking at her. No QoLaB laurel, it is true, but none is mentioned for that tourney.

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you."

[BearQueen87]

Not quite. He tossed a white roses to maids in the crowd, but only to Sansa he rode up and gave a red rose, looking at her. No QoLaB laurel, it is true, but none is mentioned for that tourney.

J. Stargaryen has a lot to say about how this Sansa/ Loras moment is actually a parallel to HH tourney. (I'll try refind that thread)