BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 When?From MtnLion “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Perhaps: “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. (therefore good enough to fulfil our requirement of ensuring the king's safety when we are absent, a suitable answer to "Will they (he) keep him safe?" Expaining himself why he didn't sail with his king, maybe? Perhaps he felt obliged to point out that he hadn't reneged on his duty with the good and true Ser Willem to take over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” This is not a offer to surrender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Expaining himself why he didn't sail with his king, maybe? Perhaps he felt obliged to point out that he hadn't reneged on his duty with the good and true Ser Willem to take over? Possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 From MtnLion Sorry, it's a GRRM quote that I want. With all due respect, MtnLion's interpretation of the quote is just that, interpretation. I just checked on my edition. No such offer there. Might have been the publishing house messing up. But reading the responses, it wasn't. I mean, next time you might want to point me at the crowning of QoLaB being the equivalent of nowadays beauty contest. That's also something MtnLion wrote. Just interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there. That is an assumption, nothing in that quote is an offer of surrendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” This is not a offer to surrender *shrug* It's a matter of interpretation, I acknowledge that. Just pointing out why some think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Sorry, it was a GRRM quote that I want. With all due respect, MtnLion's interpretation of the quote is just that, interpretation. I just checked on my edition. No such offer there. Might have been the publishing house messing up. But reading the responses, it wasn't. Lol oh ok. That's what I just said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 *shrug* It's a matter of interpretation, I acknowledge that. Just pointing out why some think that. Well everything is really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Possible And it wasn't Oswell who said, "But not of the Kingsguard." Oswell and Gerold were different people, each with their own feelings. Oswell might have kept on praising Ser Willem if Gerold hadn't wanted to say his line. He just interrupted his sworn brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 So lets assume they didn't know about Viserys and just found out from Ned, do they just leave? do they say "Hey, we don't want to fight you know, come find us on Dragonstone later"? And if they do does Ned let them go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Well everything is really. We agree on something at long last! LOL. This has been gong on for like...15 threads now. None of us are going to bend (the knee) to the others opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Oh FGS, now we're going to parse every single word of this dream and be like "Oh man, he didn't use those EXACT words!" even though the meaning is completely clear. Ned doesn't want a fight. This is obvious. He's up against 3 of the best KG knights in history, and even with 7 men, they nearly lost. It's not a certain outcome, so of course he's going to give them other options. He's giving the KG several chances to avoid a fight by either bending the knee (as the others did) or going to Dragonstone with Viserys. He doesn't have to spell it out for us to catch the meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 And it wasn't Oswell who said, "But not of the Kingsguard." Oswell and Gerold were different people, each with their own feelings. Oswell might have kept on praising Ser Willem if Gerold hadn't wanted to say his line. He just interrupted his sworn brother. Whenever I read that portion I always imagined Hightower speaking immediately after Whent with no time for Whent to continue speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Worth requoting this in such a fast moving thread: “Stand by your seat, ser.” Kettleblack complied. The other Sworn Brothers filed in one by one. “Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?” “My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied. “And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers. “Will they keep him safe?” “They will, my lord.” “Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured.A specific ritual requirement to ensure that the king is in safe hands when there are no Kingsguard with him, in this case fulfilled by the brothers of a kingsguard. Ser Willem Darry was brother to a kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Oh FGS, now we're going to parse every single word of this dream and be like "Oh man, he didn't use those EXACT words!" even though the meaning is completely clear.Ned doesn't want a fight. This is obvious. He's up against 3 of the best KG knights in history, and even with 7 men, they nearly lost. It's not a certain outcome, so of course he's going to give them other options. He's giving the KG several chances to avoid a fight by either bending the knee (as the others did) or going to Dragonstone with Viserys. He doesn't have to spell it out for us to catch the meaning.Ned didn't want a threat to Robert's rule either. Bending the knee (accepting Robert Baratheon, First of His Name) is not the same as offering the KG to join Viserys and his mother on Dragonstone, to help Rhaella organize her forces more effectively. No matter who their king was, as long as it was a Targaryen king, they should not be allowed near the Queen Dowager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Worth requoting this in such a fast moving thread: A specific ritual requirement to ensure that the king is in safe hands when there are no Kingsguard with him, in this case fulfilled by the brothers of a kingsguard.Ser Willem Darry was brother to a kingsguard. The KG are in the same building. The KG are only going to be absent for 30 mins. The realm isn't at war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The KG are in the same building. The KG are only going to be absent for 30 mins. The realm isn't at war. The difference in sutiations hasn't bothered you in the past, with Rhaegar, Maegor and polygamy. Give some consideration to the thought that variance in situations doesn't only apply to Rhaegar's plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Oh FGS, now we're going to parse every single word of this dream and be like "Oh man, he didn't use those EXACT words!" even though the meaning is completely clear.Ned doesn't want a fight. This is obvious. He's giving the KG several chances to avoid a fight by either bending the knee (as the others did) or going to Dragonstone with Viserys. He doesn't have to spell it out for us to catch the meaning.You are doing exactly that. "They said we made a vow". There is NO offer to leave freely. He said he thought that he was with Viserys on Dragonstone meaning "oh shit I didn't expect to see you here". Since when is that interpreted as you can go guard our(my kings) enemy now? It just happens to fit so perfectly with your theory that it couldn't possibly mean anything else but what you interpreted it as. It could mean many things so can't be used as "proof" for either side. They only offer that could possibly be there is the surrender, which is not the same as "please go and protect my enemy". It was(possibly) an offer to bend the knee to the new king(Robert) and they didn't want to. That is not proof that Jon(assuming R+L=J) is legit or the king. And seeing as Ned didn't offer them to leave freely unharmed, they have no choice but to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The KG are in the same building. The KG are only going to be absent for 30 mins. The realm isn't at war. the remaining KG are all together(and could of possibly been in the ToJ for the purposes of the ritual) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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