R+L=J v.103

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Imagine that 11 years after the question was asked and answered, the fact that the question was asked and answered still seems to be elusive.

The fact that the answer that was given in 2003 happened to pop back up in aDwD in 2011 has some believing they somehow cancel each other.

the answer GRRM gave in 2003 was not changed at all...

It does make one wonder what the explanation for the kingsguard at the tower of joy was before 1996 and 2011 Especially between 2000 and 2011, when all we had for duties of the kingsguard were keeping the king alive.

Not only that. But there is a curious reprisal of Martin's answer in - of all places - an Areo Hotah chapter of ADWD, published in 2011. Just for comparison, here is Martin's interview response in 2003, with relevant emphasis:

• Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards... serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

And here is an excerpt from the the Hotah Chapter ("The Watcher"), ADWD (2011), again with relevant text highlighted for emphasis:

Areo Hotah ran his hand along the smooth shaft of his longaxe, his ash-and-iron wife, all the while watching. He watched the white knight, Ser Balon Swann, and the others who had come with him. He watched the Sand Snakes, each at a different table. He watched the lords and ladies, the serving men, the old blind seneschal, and the young maester Myles, with his silky beard and servile smile. Standing half in light and half in shadow, he saw all of them. Serve. Protect. Obey. That was his task.

[...]

"This is monstrous," said Lady Nym. "I would not have believed it, not of a Kingsguard knight."

"They are sworn to obey, just as my captain is," the prince said. "I had my doubts as well, but you all saw how Ser Balon balked when I suggested that we go by sea. A ship would have disturbed all the queen's arrangements."

[...]

Later, when Arianne had gone, he put down his longaxe and lifted Prince Doran into his bed. "Until the Mountain crushed my brother's skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings," the prince murmured softly, as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. "Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?"

"That is not for me to say, my prince." Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew.

Adding to the connection, it's worth noting that Hotah's vows are emphasized here in the context of the Dornish reception of Ser Gregor's skull - in other words, a commemoration of vengeance for the deaths of Elia and her children, one of whom was Rhaegar's heir... the same deaths that might have been prevented if the 3/7 of the Kingsguard had not been stationed "far away" at the time of the Trident and the Sack.

[RumHam]

One random red horse, one Khal, one Mirri Maz Duur. How do Viserys and Rhaego come into it?

Quote from Lord Varys in the last thread:

More importantly, the story of the original Azor Ahai forging the original Lightbringer also greatly resembles Daenerys' losses when she sacrificed Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo (or Drogo, Rhaego, and Drogo again) for her dragons in the sense that

- she used to hatch the dragon eggs three times, and only succeeded the third time.

- she sacrificed what she loved the most - pretty much everything she had - to get the dragons.

Azor Ahai pretty much did the same, didn't he?

I think this explanation makes more sense than the other, especially the horse.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking about prophecies:

Daenerys can't be the Stallion who mounts the World, since she is female, whereas a stallion is defined as a male horse...

The prophecy also claims precisely that Drogo's child by Daenerys will be the stallion, not Daenerys herself. There is also nothing about a 'rebirth' in that prophecy, which would allow us to assume that Daenerys became the stallion on the funeral pyre. The stallion, like the Jewish messiah, seems to be a savior figure that is supposed to be coming in the future, not a legendary hero from the past who is supposed to come again.

Even more importantly, the whole point of that prophecy clearly was to show that the best way to prevent prophecies from becoming true is to clear the person who is supposed to fulfill a prophecy before she can do it.

[sj4iy]

Dany didn't "sacrifice" Drogo. He was already dead, a living corpse when she smothered him. She didn't willingly sacrifice her unborn child. She didn't kill Viserys.

Azor Ahai willfully and knowingly sacrificed his wife. He knew that sacrificing the thing he lived best in the world was the only way to defeat the darkness. Dany didn't do that. That's why I don't see it as the same at all.

[RumHam]

Daenerys can't be the Stallion who mounts the World, since she is female, whereas a stallion is defined as a male horse...

We learned long ago that horses in Martin's world are neither male nor female, but interchangeable as flame.

Sometimes the eyes of some character change color, and my Dutch translator wrote to me an a mail tahn one of the horses changed sex between AGOT and ACOK.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/ssm/category/heraldry/p435/P495

[MoIaF]

Thinking about prophecies:

Daenerys can't be the Stallion who mounts the World, since she is female, whereas a stallion is defined as a male horse...

The prophecy also claims precisely that Drogo's child by Daenerys will be the stallion, not Daenerys herself. There is also nothing about a 'rebirth' in that prophecy, which would allow us to assume that Daenerys became the stallion on the funeral pyre. The stallion, like the Jewish messiah, seems to be a savior figure that is supposed to be coming in the future, not a legendary hero from the past who is supposed to come again.

Even more importantly, the whole point of that prophecy clearly was to show that the best way to prevent prophecies from becoming true is to clear the person who is supposed to fulfill a prophecy before she can do it.

I don't think the Stallion is suppose to be a male horse, I think they called it a Stallion because it's suppose to be a great male and to the Dothraki the Stallion is the greatest of males.

It seemed that the crones were unsure of what they saw in the fire but because the Dothraki culture is so male-centric they assumed it was the male child Dany was carrying instead of her.

I think many of the prophecies share a common root and have been interpret to resemble the cultural preferences of the societies that embrace them. The Dothraki would admire a great trader and pillager and so their great leader will have these attribute. But some of the wording looks to resemble the need for a great leader to lead a innumerable amount of people to the ends of the earth (Lands of Always Winter?) which might be similar to some of the deed that an AAR or TPTWP would have to accomplish.

Once again we are also faced with the male-centric nature of prophecies in the ASOIAF world, Except for Benerro and Moqorro (and later Aemon) most everyone who is trying to decipher these prophecies believes that the person who will fulfill them will be a male. It's the constant assumption in world and out that all great leaders must be men.

[MoIaF]

Dany didn't "sacrifice" Drogo. He was already dead, a living corpse when she smothered him. She didn't willingly sacrifice her unborn child. She didn't kill Viserys.

Azor Ahai willfully and knowingly sacrificed his wife. He knew that sacrificing the thing he lived best in the world was the only way to defeat the darkness. Dany didn't do that. That's why I don't see it as the same at all.

I wonder if Dany sacrificed a part of herself when she walked into the flames,

In her second to last chapter in ADWD when Drogon is speared, she and him scream as one, which made me wonder if her life and that of Drogon are somehow connected.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Quote from Lord Varys in the last thread:

I think this explanation makes more sense than the other, especially the horse.

Actually, I really like that explanation - but I'd change it a bit, and remove Drogo from the equation. The three sacrifices that would seem to make the most sense would be:

1. Viserys

Rhaego

Dany (herself)

Drogo was not a dragon, and Dany sacrificed herself when she walked into Drogo's pyre.

(ETA - Ahh... :ninja: 'd a bit by MoIaF! :cheers: , MoIaF!)

We learned long ago that horses in Martin's world are neither male nor female, but interchangeable as flame.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/ssm/category/heraldry/p435/P495

Nice! :laugh:

[sj4iy]

I wonder if Dany sacrificed a part of herself when she walked into the flames,

In her second to last chapter in ADWD when Drogon is speared, she and him scream as one, which made me wonder if her life and that of Drogon are somehow connected.

Seems like a type of warging to me. Jon could feel it when Ghost was ripped into by Orell's eagle.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think the Stallion is suppose to be a male horse, I think they called it a Stallion because it's suppose to be a great male and to the Dothraki the Stallion is the greatest of males.

It seemed that the crones were unsure of what they saw in the fire but because the Dothraki culture is so male-centric they assumed it was the male child Dany was carrying instead of her.

I think many of the prophecies share a common root and have been interpret to resemble the cultural preferences of the societies that embrace them. The Dothraki would admire a great trader and pillager and so their great leader will have these attribute. But some of the wording looks to resemble the need for a great leader to lead a innumerable amount of people to the ends of the earth (Lands of Always Winter?) which might be similar to some of the deed that an AAR or TPTWP would have to accomplish.

Once again we are also faced with the male-centric nature of prophecies in the ASOIAF world, Except for Benerro and Moqorro (and later Aemon) most everyone who is trying to decipher these prophecies believes that the person who will fulfill them will be a male. It's the constant assumption in world and out that all great leaders must be men.

I agree that TSWMTW doesn't have to be male but is rather a reflection of Dothraki male-centric culture. I do think that prophetic role is going to go to Dany. What that means in terms of TPTWP/AAR/LH...not so sure because I do think Jon is at least TPTWP and I have a suspicion that Bran is playing out the LH role.

I wonder if Dany sacrificed a part of herself when she walked into the flames,

In her second to last chapter in ADWD when Drogon is speared, she and him scream as one, which made me wonder if her life and that of Drogon are somehow connected.

When Jorah carries Dany into the tent, I think Rhaego's "life force" was taken from him and given to the dragon eggs, so in that sense Rhaego (who carries at least half of Dany's DNA) went into the dragon's, hence her connection to all three.

[MoIaF]

I agree that TSWMTW doesn't have to be male but is rather a reflection of Dothraki male-centric culture. I do think that prophetic role is going to go to Dany. What that means in terms of TPTWP/AAR/LH...not so sure because I do think Jon is at least TPTWP and I have a suspicion that Bran is playing out the LH role.

When Jorah carries Dany into the tent, I think Rhaego's "life force" was taken from him and given to the dragon eggs, so in that sense Rhaego (who carries at least half of Dany's DNA) went into the dragon's, hence her connection to all three.

It seems to me that Viserion (the white dragon) might have some of Rhaego's life force. When Dany woke up from her fevered dream after her miscarriage his egg was the one she was holding. He also seemed to be the most trusting and attached to Dany.

Seems like a type of warging to me. Jon could feel it when Ghost was ripped into by Orell's eagle.

Perhaps. But Dany's own sacrifice in walking into the pyre might be an important part of the spell to wake the dragons.

[Lord Varys]

If you go into metaphors and interpretation, Daenerys clearly sacrificed Viserys - she did not intervene, or tried to intervene to save her brother, and thus approved of Viserys' execution (and we see how other people, like Arianne, seem to see it that way, too).

Dany also sacrificed (subconsciously) Rhaego when she wanted to get Drogo back, but all that was, in turn, only a prelude for her killing Drogo, and then waking the dragons.

Symbolically, Dany's sacrifices were Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo, 'magically' Mirri Maz Duur most likely provided the actual life force to make the blood magic work, but the important Azor Ahai parallel clearly is the fact that she sacrificed everything she had on the way to get the dragons.

I don't think we have reason to believe that the Stallion is a figure which makes sense outside of Dothraki culture. The Stallion is supposed to be the Dothraki warrior who conquers all of Essos, and as he is supposed to be a Dothraki, he cannot be female, since women do not rule or lead the Dothraki. Thus Dany can never be the Stallion for the Dothraki, she would have to be somebody else.

And the fact that Dany had seen an alternative future where Rhaego apparently is the Stallion, I'd really suggest that this prophecy was prevented when Mirri Maz Duur ensured that he would die.

There is also no reason to believe that Targaryen blooded-people had to be sacrificed to wake the dragons. Dany had the dragon blood, she conducted the spell, and we know that there is power in this blood. The fact that Mel, and possibly other people, use dragon blood for their spells, does not mean that dragon blood has always be used as the fuel for spells - the dragon-blooded people can also conduct spells (and the Valyrians clearly did that). In fact, if Mel is Shiera's daughter by Bloodraven, she also would have Targaryen blood, and her own dragon blood could also explain how she could become such a powerful sorceress.

The idea that Bran will become an active hero is the story does seem strange to me. He is going to become a tree, and he won't leave that cave. He may become some twisted version of a mentor figure (usually a wise old man), but I really can't see him fighting anyone with his own hands. Bloodraven already said outright that he will never walk again, after all...

[BearQueen87]

It seems to me that Viserion (the white dragon) might have some of Rhaego's life force. When Dany woke up from her fevered dream after her miscarriage his egg was the one she was holding. He also seemed to be the most trusting and attached to Dany.

I think all three dragons have Rhaego's life force thus even after all three get riders they will always be her children and attached to her. The three personalities of the dragon represent the kind of person Rhaego could have been (and the kind of person Dany is): the trusting/gentle dragon (Viserion); the vicious dragon (Rhaegal); and the warrior king/queen dragon (Drogon).

The idea that Bran will become an active hero is the story does seem strange to me. He is going to become a tree, and he won't leave that cave. He may become some twisted version of a mentor figure (usually a wise old man), but I really can't see him fighting anyone with his own hands. Bloodraven already said outright that he will never walk again, after all...

What makes you think the Last Hero was an actual sword wielding hero? We dont know how that story ends and I think the story has gotten very muddled over the centuries so that the LH is thought of as a great warrior who defeated the Others in combat rather than what he actually did.

ETA: about TSTMTW and the Dothraki: you don't think Dany can change the crones mind? Maybe they won't proclaim her as such, but that doesn't mean she isn't The Stallion.

[Lord Varys]

You think the Last Hero became a greenseer and explored the past in some cave? That would not help all that much to defeat the Others back then... The Last Hero must have achieved something during a meeting/confrontation with the Others - either in a big battle, or during some sort attack on the leadership of the Others (if such a body exists).

Perhaps he also did some big spell, countering whatever magic the Others used to cause the Long Night and the cold, which worked at least for a very long time. Clearly that did not restore things to as how they were prior to the Long Night, since there are still the freak seasons...

But I really don't think that the heroes of the present really have to reenact the stuff the heroes during the War for the Dawn did. AWoIaF is not 'The Wheel of Time', as far as i know.

The present-day heroes must do something better than the historical heroes, since those guys sucked on the long run.

[MoIaF]

You think the Last Hero became a greenseer and explored the past in some cave? That would not help all that much to defeat the Others back then... The Last Hero must have achieved something during a meeting/confrontation with the Others - either in a big battle, or during some sort attack on the leadership of the Others (if such a body exists).

Perhaps he also did some big spell, countering whatever magic the Others used to cause the Long Night and the cold, which worked at least for a very long time. Clearly that did not restore things to as how they were prior to the Long Night, since there are still the freak seasons...

But I really don't think that the heroes of the present really have to reenact the stuff the heroes during the War for the Dawn did. AWoIaF is not 'The Wheel of Time', as far as i know.

The present-day heroes must do something better than the historical heroes, since those guys sucked on the long run.

I agree completely on this aspect. Whatever happens now will have to be different that what happened in the past.

As far as Bran is concerned I think he'll be a great resource to those on "the ground". With his connection to the weirwood and the past, present and future, he'll have a wide view of what's going one, the cave where he is now would be a sort of command center from which he could operate.

I agree that Bran won't leave the cave.

[BearQueen87]

You think the Last Hero became a greenseer and explored the past in some cave? That would not help all that much to defeat the Others back then... The Last Hero must have achieved something during a meeting/confrontation with the Others - either in a big battle, or during some sort attack on the leadership of the Others (if such a body exists).

That's not what I think, actually. I think the LH achieved something quite significant with the Others. My point is: who is to say that what he achieved was done through battle? A broken sword is not going to be much use to you when the Others are coming. I'm not convinced that the LH ended up going to battle against the Others. In my head, it's pretty significant that the story of the LH cuts off right when you expect "the hero" to "do a thing" that will change the outcome of the battle despite "all the odds" working against him. In other words: what you think is supposed to happen did not happen.

But I really don't think that the heroes of the present really have to reenact the stuff the heroes during the War for the Dawn did. AWoIaF is not 'The Wheel of Time', as far as i know.

I agree that they don't need to recreate the historical heroes exactly.

As far as Bran is concerned I think he'll be a great resource to those on "the ground". With his connection to the weirwood and the past, present and future, he'll have a wide view of what's going one, the cave where he is now would be a sort of command center from which he could operate.

I agree that Bran won't leave the cave.

Bran's body maybe, but he will fly. :) (whether or not it's on the same side as Jon, Dany, and co. I remain skeptical)

[MoIaF]

I think all three dragons have Rhaego's life force thus even after all three get riders they will always be her children and attached to her. The three personalities of the dragon represent the kind of person Rhaego could have been (and the kind of person Dany is): the trusting/gentle dragon (Viserion); the vicious dragon (Rhaegal); and the warrior king/queen dragon (Drogon).

What makes you think the Last Hero was an actual sword wielding hero? We dont know how that story ends and I think the story has gotten very muddled over the centuries so that the LH is thought of as a great warrior who defeated the Others in combat rather than what he actually did.

ETA: about TSTMTW and the Dothraki: you don't think Dany can change the crones mind? Maybe they won't proclaim her as such, but that doesn't mean she isn't The Stallion.

I think if Dany is named the STMTW despite the crones initial predictions that it was Rhaego can show us how trolly mailable prophecies can be. Destiny can be change, it's not set in stone.

[BearQueen87]

I think if Dany is named the STMTW despite the crones initial predictions that it was Rhaego can show us how trolly mailable prophecies can be. Destiny can be change, it's not set in stone.

Very good point and that might be something GRRM is playing with overall: you can change your destiny and it what matters is not what was supposed to be, but what is.

[TheLastStark]

Ok, but if we step away from the TOJ for the tiniest moment, what about the other Legit Jon clues? We always harp on the TOJ, but there are other things inside the text that suggest Jon is Legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

That would be great, but haven't seen any on this thread since this post.^

Yes, please. This is pointless to argue over a purposely vague dream if no one is going to bother reading between the lines.

You mean if no one is going to see it in the only way you see it. We are showing you other interpretations and you just keep running around with your eyes closed saying "no no no, I'm right your wrong". If someone wants to see something, then everywhere they look they will see it. You want R+L=J(with marriage) so no matter what you look at it has to be interpreted that way to help prove your pov.

[BearQueen87]

That would be great, but haven't seen any on this thread since this post.^

One by one, bullet point style, then.

1) Eddard I, AGOT

"Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"