R+L=J v.103

[BearQueen87]

It was(possibly) an offer to bend the knee to the new king(Robert) and they didn't want to. That is not proof that Jon(assuming R+L=J) is legit or the king. And seeing as Ned didn't offer them to leave freely unharmed, they have no choice but to fight.

Ok, but if we step away from the TOJ for the tiniest moment, what about the other Legit Jon clues? We always harp on the TOJ, but there are other things inside the text that suggest Jon is Legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

[sj4iy]

Ned didn't want a threat to Robert's rule either. Bending the knee (accepting Robert Baratheon, First of His Name) is not the same as offering the KG to join Viserys and his mother on Dragonstone, to help Rhaella organize her forces more effectively.

No matter who their king was, as long as it was a Targaryen king, they should not be allowed near the Queen Dowager.

...name one time when Ned was worried about a threat to Robert's throne. There isn't one. Ned doesn't care about things like that. He even quit being Robert's Hand because Robert wanted to kill Danaerys. She was a pretty big threat to his rule, don't you think? Ned raised a very big threat to Robert's throne as his own son. Ned wouldn't have cared at all had the knights accepted his terms and went to Viserys...in fact, he wanted to avoid the bloodshed altogether. He didn't want to kill them and he didn't want to be killed.

[sj4iy]

Ok, but if we step away from the TOJ for the tiniest moment, what about the other Legit Jon clues? We always harp on the TOJ, but there are other things inside the text that suggest Jon is Legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Yes, please. This is pointless to argue over a purposely vague dream if no one is going to bother reading between the lines.

[BearQueen87]

the remaining KG are all together(and could of possibly been in the ToJ for the purposes of the ritual)

Sorry, this lost me. Selmy is wounded post-Trident and was fighting in the war before hand. Darry and Martell are dead at the Trident and fighting in the war before hand. Jaime is in the Red Keep. Higtower, Dayne and Whent are at the TOJ.

[sj4iy]

Sorry, this lost me. Selmy is wounded post-Trident and was fighting in the war before hand. Darry and Martell are dead at the Trident and fighting in the war before hand. Jaime is in the Red Keep. Higtower, Dayne and Whent are at the TOJ.

And just as a note, Jaime is the one chosen to stay because Aerys wants to ensure the loyalty of Tywin. Which is why all of the more experienced KG leave while he stays.

[Anath]

...name one time when Ned was worried about a threat to Robert's throne. There isn't one. Ned doesn't care about things like that. He even quit being Robert's Hand because Robert wanted to kill Danaerys. She was a pretty big threat to his rule, don't you think? Ned raised a very big threat to Robert's throne as his own son. Ned wouldn't have cared at all had the knights accepted his terms and went to Viserys...in fact, he wanted to avoid the bloodshed altogether. He didn't want to kill them and he didn't want to be killed.

Yes, because 15 years into Robert's reign, with everyone accepting him as king are just as dangerous as a realm that has just emerged from a war. Sorry, did I say "just emerged"? Umm, I meant "not quite emerged". Rhaella had not bent the knee. Storm's End has just been relieved of a siege. And no, actually I don't think a girl a sea away, with an army of riders who can't ride the water is as big a threat to Robert's rule as the old King's widow and young son were.

I must have missed the part where Ned raised Jon to be a Very Big Threat to Robert's throne. For some reason, I always thought he raised Jon to be a bastard, keeping both him and Robert's rule safe.

[Anath]

Yes, please. This is pointless to argue over a purposely vague dream if no one is going to bother reading between the lines.

And your reading is the only one possible. That's why that's the 103 thread on the matter.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[JonSnow4President]

Yes, because 15 years into Robert's reign, with everyone accepting him as king are just as dangerous as a realm that has just emerged from a war. Sorry, did I say "just emerged"? Umm, I meant "not quite emerged". Rhaella had not bent the knee. Storm's End has just been relieved of a siege. And no, actually I don't think a girl a sea away, with an army of riders who can't ride the water is as big a threat to Robert's rule as the old King's widow and young son were.

I must have missed the part where Ned raised Jon to be a Very Big Threat to Robert's throne. For some reason, I always thought he raised Jon to be a bastard, keeping both him and Robert's rule safe.

Both of us know he isn't raised as a bastard to protect Robert's throne, assuming R+L=J is true.

[Kingmonkey]

The KG are in the same building. The KG are only going to be absent for 30 mins. The realm isn't at war.

All true, but we don't know that the ritual only applies to a short absence. Surely the key thing is "will they keep him safe", whether that's for 30 minutes or 3 months?

I agree with your point that the primary function of the Kingsguard has to be to guard the king, but if they have a ritual specifically to allow for them to see to other duties if they have ensured that the king is in the hands of someone they trust to keep him safe, then surely the answer to how long it's good for is how long they feel confident that he's still safe for.

If they have some other order they have been given and they've done the whole ritual "will they keep him safe" thing, it seems at the very least a reasonable possibility that they would stick to carrying out their order rather than dropping it to go and protect the king.

Interesting thought: while this can be put forwards for an argument that the presence of the 3KG is no proof of Jon's legitimacy, it could equally be the intended meaning behind the lines if Jon was legitimate and the 3KG where carefully keeping that fact from Ned.

[Anath]

Both of us know he isn't raised as a bastard to protect Robert's throne, assuming R+L=J is true.

But that was a side effect of it. Both of us know he wasn't raised as a threat to Robert's throne either. Actually, if R + L = J, bt not Legitimate J, he isn't a threat either.

[sj4iy]

Yes, because 15 years into Robert's reign, with everyone accepting him as king are just as dangerous as a realm that has just emerged from a war. Sorry, did I say "just emerged"? Umm, I meant "not quite emerged". Rhaella had not bent the knee. Storm's End has just been relieved of a siege. And no, actually I don't think a girl a sea away, with an army of riders who can't ride the water is as big a threat to Robert's rule as the old King's widow and young son were.

I must have missed the part where Ned raised Jon to be a Very Big Threat to Robert's throne. For some reason, I always thought he raised Jon to be a bastard, keeping both him and Robert's rule safe.

Jon's the son of Rhaegar. Bastard or not, he's a threat to Robert's throne. Otherwise Cersei wouldn't have ordered all of Robert's bastards killed. Otherwise Catelyn wouldn't have worried about Jon being raised with her own son.

And your reading is the only one possible. That's why that's the 103 thread on the matter.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Not much is going to get accomplished in a debate if people are expecting Martin to spell it out and be completely literal. It's going around in circles and nothing is happening, so there's no point in going on about it was my point. No need to get snarky about it.

[BearQueen87]

All true, but we don't know that the ritual only applies to a short absence. Surely the key thing is "will they keep him safe", whether that's for 30 minutes or 3 months?

You're right we don't know that the ritual only applies to short absences. But this situation isn't just a short absence of 3 moths. If Viserys is the king he is in extreme danger from the new Regime.

[stateofdissipation]

Ok, but if we step away from the TOJ for the tiniest moment, what about the other Legit Jon clues? We always harp on the TOJ, but there are other things inside the text that suggest Jon is Legit son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

I could do with stepping away from the ToJ for good.... the questions have been asked and answered. Without invention, the answer does not change.

--Ned has just resigned as hand over Robert's order to kill children, stating--"I thought you a better man than this Robert, I thought we had made a better king."--Eddard aGoT page 343.

"but he(Ned) had assured her(Lyanna) that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true that would love her with all his heart." aGoT page 367

:"Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature" Lyanna aGoT page 367

---Going to a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards clearly showed Ned that he had been mistaken.

"He wondered if Rhaegar Targaryen had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." aGoT page 369

Ned was visiting Robert's bastard at a brothel. He had just confirmed that what Robert did (sex) before his betrothal did matter

Ned thought Rhaeger would not frequent brothels.----Unknown source of this conclusion---

Hypothesis---the unknown source of the conclusion---Ned knew that Rhaegar did not have sex before his marriage.

[Anath]

Jon's the son of Rhaegar. Bastard or not, he's a threat to Robert's throne.

Not much is going to get accomplished in a debate if people are expecting Martin to spell it out and be completely literal. It's going around in circles and nothing is happening, so there's no point in going on about it was my point. No need to get snarky about it.

How is a bastard Jon a threat to Robert's throne? Robert has all the kingdoms behind him. A bastard Jon wouldn't even have legitimacy to counter that. And Ned specifically raised Jon not to be a threat.

Your point looked more like "no one who doesn't agree with MY reading between the lines doesn't read between the lines". We were all reading between the lines when you announced it was all a pointless exercise because we didn't agree with your interpretations. That's how it sounded, anyway.

[sj4iy]

How is a bastard Jon a threat to Robert's throne? Robert has all the kingdoms behind him. A bastard Jon wouldn't even have legitimacy to counter that. And Ned specifically raised Jon not to be a threat.

Your point looked more like "no one who doesn't agree with MY reading between the lines doesn't read between the lines". We were all reading between the lines when you announced it was all a pointless exercise because we didn't agree with your interptetations.

If Jon, a bastard, is NOT a threat to Robert's throne, then tell me:

Why does Cersei have all of Robert's bastards killed?

And I never said anything at all about my 'interpretations' or people agreeing with me. It becomes pointless to debate the same thing over and over again if no one is going to see things differently, was my point.

[Anath]

If Jon, a bastard, is NOT a threat to Robert's throne, then tell me:

Why does Cersei have all of Robert's bastards killed?

Because she had to cover for her own bastards being bastards? Do you really think they were a threat to her own children via usurpation? What, Barra's mother would have armed the whores? Gendry would have led an army of blacksmiths? The only danger Robert's bastards were to her was them being the living evidence that she was the only woman, out of all Robert had bedded, who failed to give him a child who resembled him a tiny bit.

[BearQueen87]

If Jon, a bastard, is NOT a threat to Robert's throne, then tell me:

Why does Cersei have all of Robert's bastards killed?

And I never said anything at all about my 'interpretations' or people agreeing with me. It becomes pointless to debate the same thing over and over again if no one is going to see things differently, was my point.

If we look back in history, bastards HAVE been threats to the throne: Blackfyres, anyone?

[stateofdissipation]

Yes, please. This is pointless to argue over a purposely vague dream if no one is going to bother reading between the lines.

Reading between the lines is fine... taking a pencil ... crossing out what was said and writing what is necessary to reach kingsguard means king present is another...

[Anath]

If we look back in history, bastards HAVE been threats to the throne: Blackfyres, anyone?

Daeron's moment of insanity, more precisely. I adore him and I am all hail King Daeron kind of girl but my, this was a monumental blunder. He did exactly the opposite of what Robert did: Daeron decided that being a good person was enough. And then he had the bastards he had tolerated and treated well bite the hand feeding them. I suppose he was so very surprised finding them use the resources he allowed them to gather against him. Lucky him, his forces won at the Battlefield, or else he might have been nicknamed Daeron the Befuddled.

No such danger with Robert's bastards. Robert was such a shitty father that he pushed them into the lowliest of low where they could not scramble from even if a miracle happened and Westerosi lords ranged out behind a blacksmith or a cook. Even Edric Storm was never brought to court.

[Kingmonkey]

You're right we don't know that the ritual only applies to short absences. But this situation isn't just a short absence of 3 moths. If Viserys is the king he is in extreme danger from the new Regime.

Didn't it take over half a year for Stannis to gather a fleet and get to Dragonstone? The 3KG might have felt that the state of the fleet was such that Viserys was safe for a while yet.