stateofdissipation Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 "The KG do not flee." Sounds pretty proudly proclaiming that they are KG to me. Fairly certain that the prime duty of the KG is protect the King. Sorry if you disagree. "The KG do not flee." Sounds pretty proudly proclaiming that they are KG to me. pro·claim : to say or state (something) in a public, official, or definite way : to declare or announce (something): to show (something) clearly http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proclaim Had they "proclaimed" it you would not need to explain it... because you explained it, they did not proclaim it. Now proudly proud: very happy and pleased because of something you have done, something you own, someone you know or are related to, etc. : feeling pride http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proudly Without the narrator telling their feelings or them stating their feelings...it is impossible to pull proud out of it... Fairly certain that the prime duty of the KG is protect the King. I am certain that there is no "prime duty" in aSoIaF. Selmy mentions a "first duty" in aDwD I am also certain the question of the KG's presence at the tower was asked in 2003 by Robert Shaw. Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? and answered by GRRM Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm Sorry if you disagree, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurbee Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Ah. Obey vs. Protect. The meat and bones of RLJ for at least 10 threads now. #TeamProtect #TeamJonIsLegit #TeamJustBendTheKneeAlready I just want to say I appreciate the gratuitous use of these #hashtags. #TeamKingJon While Ned's dream is a fever dream, it is a recurring dream, one that has happened presumably when he had all of his wits about him. While a dream is not usually something to take literally, I think GRRM intends for it to help readers get clues about Jon's true parentage and the battle that happened at TOJ. All except for Howland Reed are dead and gone, and he has yet to show up though I think he will soon. Not only has the dream haunted him, but what else has haunted Ned? His sister Lyanna and the promise she got him to make right before she passed. To me it seems that we as readers are meant to take these two things in conjunction with one another and draw conclusions that they are related in some way, ie. Jon's parents. Whether they both end up being related or not remains to be seen, but both are clearly significant or they wouldn't bother the 1st novel's main protagonist so much. Regarding the dream, the conversation shows that the KG there are fully aware of the results of the Trident and that Rhaegar has died. Regardless of whether they receive such news the same time as learning of the Sack, there was still a KG in KL. The key here is WHY would they ALL remain at TOJ? Something there had to be significant enough for them to remain even after Rhaegar died. Which is partially why I think they may have received both news at the same time. The question is from where, and from whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 pro·claim : to say or state (something) in a public, official, or definite way : to declare or announce (something): to show (something) clearly http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proclaim Had they "proclaimed" it you would not need to explain it... because you explained it, they did not proclaim it. Now proudly proud: very happy and pleased because of something you have done, something you own, someone you know or are related to, etc. : feeling pride http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proudly Without the narrator telling their feelings or them stating their feelings...it is impossible to pull proud out of it... Fairly certain that the prime duty of the KG is protect the King. I am certain that there is no "prime duty" in aSoIaF. Selmy mentions a "first duty" in aDwD I am also certain the question of the KG's presence at the tower was asked in 2003 by Robert Shaw. Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? and answered by GRRM Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm Sorry if you disagree, That quote doesn't answer anything, because it doesn't account for the obvious: would their orders from the prince override the KG's duty to protect the King? Without that condition added, the quote is useless and tells us nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Jaime explains that there is a ceremony/ritual for specifically when the KG have a meeting and one of them can't be with the king. It implies that there is a ceremony for meeting in the White Sword Tower or specifically meeting, not for whenever they feel like it. The language of the ToJ scene is such that the KG are having an administrative meeting. And since Hightower did not call the meeting and specifically send Darry to protect the king and that it is only Darry, not more than one (2 Kettleblacks and 1 Garlan) knight doing the guarding, it seems less official that the ceremony/ritual that Jaime invokes. Can you quote the ceremony/ritual please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I'm of the mind that the prophecy of the Stallion the Mounts the World is a version of the Prince that was Promise prophecy:As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd." Since we've got Aemon's comments about how tptwp could be prince rather than princess because the actual term is dragon and dragons aren't gendered, wouldn't this strengthen the hypothesis that Drogon is the stallion that mounts the world, by the reversal of prince meaning dragon? "Fierce as a storm this dragon will be" doesn't sound too bad, and frankly it makes a lot of sense for the Stallion (TMTW) being a mount. If the whole "Only a death can pay for a life" thing can be read as suggesting that there's some kind of transferral of spirit or life force or whatever involved, then Rhaego goes to Drogo, then to Drogon, so there could actually be some reason for the prophecy to have been thought by the dosh khaleesi to apply to Rhaego and yet turn out to apply to Drogon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Wait, Viserys was a prince or a king depending how you look at it, Drogo a khal and Rhaego a khalakka. I would say they all had kings blood. One random red horse, one Khal, one Mirri Maz Duur. How do Viserys and Rhaego come into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son jnow Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Suppose good or bad depends on how you feel about both parties. :) Can you explain why you think a Jon-Littlefinger alliance might come about or what both parties get from it? Agreed, it would be strange as Jon Snow is too honest. But we could have potential Wardens of the North and East respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I just want to say I appreciate the gratuitous use of these #hashtags. #TeamKingJon While Ned's dream is a fever dream, it is a recurring dream, one that has happened presumably when he had all of his wits about him. While a dream is not usually something to take literally, I think GRRM intends for it to help readers get clues about Jon's true parentage and the battle that happened at TOJ. All except for Howland Reed are dead and gone, and he has yet to show up though I think he will soon. Not only has the dream haunted him, but what else has haunted Ned? His sister Lyanna and the promise she got him to make right before she passed. To me it seems that we as readers are meant to take these two things in conjunction with one another and draw conclusions that they are related in some way, ie. Jon's parents. Whether they both end up being related or not remains to be seen, but both are clearly significant or they wouldn't bother the 1st novel's main protagonist so much. Regarding the dream, the conversation shows that the KG there are fully aware of the results of the Trident and that Rhaegar has died. Regardless of whether they receive such news the same time as learning of the Sack, there was still a KG in KL. The key here is WHY would they ALL remain at TOJ? Something there had to be significant enough for them to remain even after Rhaegar died. Which is partially why I think they may have received both news at the same time. The question is from where, and from whom? Have I welcomed you yet? Welcome! (or maybe #Welcome) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Agreed, it would be strange as Jon Snow is too honest. But we could have potential Wardens of the North and East respectively. Won't lie. Littlefinger as the Warden of the East terrifies me. lol :) But King Jon needs allies eventually, so should LF survive, who knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Can you quote the ceremony/ritual please. It's in SoS, when he reunites the KG to meet them and tell them they all are idiots. He ask "who is with the King?", and they answer "X and Y". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Oddly enough Ser Osmund's comments appear similar to Ser Oswell's comment at the tower Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” “They will, my lord.” and “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” Both name the knight guarding the king and affirm that the king is safe. Are you suggesting that the 3KG felt their duty to Viserys was fulfilled because they'd performed the appropriate ritual handover of duty by confirming that the king was protected by someone they trusted (the brother of a Kingsguard) in their absence? Very interesting possibility! Nice spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I just want to say I appreciate the gratuitous use of these #hashtags. #TeamKingJon #Welcome. #TeamJon #TheOtherJonToo #NotNotArryn (#StopTheGingerHate #FuckHBO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Just because the Tyrell's were still laying siege to SE does not mean that they did not know about the Sack of KL. Look at the Blackwood's in ADwD, they are still holding out, even though they know Robb is dead. Bending the knee is no small thing for these great lords. It would be one thing to hear news, another for Ned Stark to show up with an army and have them bend the knee. What's the point of laying siege when your king is dead? If they knew why didn't they go to the new king Viserys? And they bent the knee as soon as Ned showed up, no fighting involved, so why wait? What do they accomplish by waiting? And I can see the Blackwood's angle, but they are different in the sense that the Blackwoods lands have been ravaged by the Lannisters and therefore are still resisting being under these murders/rapist/pos's(their most likely opinion) vs the Tyrell's where their lands are intact, and the war is already lost. If they knew, again why wait? Did they plan on trying to seize the throne if they thought the rebel force was weak? On a side note, why didn't Robert use the Redwyne fleet to attack Dragonstone immediately? Is it that much smaller than the royal fleet at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Can you quote the ceremony/ritual please.“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured. - ASoS p. 917Also see my post when I quoted it earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 #Welcome.#TeamJon #TheOtherJonToo #NotNotArryn(#StopTheGingerHate #FuckHBO).#KeepTheFaith What's the point of laying siege when your king is dead? If they knew why didn't they go to the new king Viserys? I think you should consider who is doing the seiging: Mace Tyrell who is...well, Mace Tyrell. He's goes where the power is, not where any political loyalties lie. See: Renly and then Joffery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son jnow Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Won't lie. Littlefinger as the Warden of the East terrifies me. lol :) But King Jon needs allies eventually, so should LF survive, who knows! Littlefinger as Littlefinger terrifies me. I think he would be happy to have Lord Jon Snow as his ally up in the north. Littlefingers biggest enemies are the Lannisters and as they are soon extinct, expect him to make his next major move very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It's in SoS, when he reunites the KG to meet them and tell them they all are idiots. He ask "who is with the King?", and they answer "X and Y". :rofl: , And true. “Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured. - ASoS p. 917Also see my post when I quoted it earlier.Thanks, again though if they knew Darry(that's his name right?) was with Viserys, as they described "a good and true man", and they know that the royal fleet with a garrison of loyalist is with him, does that not count as the king being safe? For all we know the plan was to go to him as soon as Lyanna and her baby were up to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son jnow Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Mace Tyrell in the show is pretty useless and weak, is he like that in the book also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Are you suggesting that the 3KG felt their duty to Viserys was fulfilled because they'd performed the appropriate ritual handover of duty by confirming that the king was protected by someone they trusted (the brother of a Kingsguard) in their absence? Very interesting possibility! Nice spot. ...but they then follow it up with: "But not of the KG" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Thanks, again though if they knew Darry(that's his name right?) was with Viserys, as they described "a good and true man", and they know that the royal fleet with a garrison of loyalist is with him, does that not count as the king being safe? And what do they say right after they acknowledge Darry as a good and true me: but not of the KG Mace Tyrell in the show is pretty useless and weak, is he like that in the book also? He's a flip flopper. So you're an Unsullied? Be careful! Here there be spoilers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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