R+L=J v.104

[Kingmonkey]

Jon: Robert, we have to think about this. There's so much at stake here, we cannot afford to act hastily.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Ned: Look, it's my sister he's got, but even I'm saying we should try to talk this out, we don't want to endanger the plan.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Jon: Robert! Focus for a moment. We can gather our forces and deny the king's demand for your heads. Take no offensive action, but put up a united front against Aerys. That will force Rhaegar's hand. He'll have to come out of hiding to call the council, or the seven kingdoms will be plunged into war. Then we can demand Lyanna back for our cooperation.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Jon: Robert, this is the best way to Lyanna back. What's going to happen if we start the war now? She'll be stuck with that ass Rhaegar for months before we can get this sorted out.

(exit Robert, pursuing a dragon. Alarums and excursions.)

Ned: It's no good Jon, he's pulled a Leroy Jenkins on us. We better get this show on the road.

[BearQueen87]

Jon: Robert, we have to think about this. There's so much at stake here, we cannot afford to act hastily.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Ned: Look, it's my sister he's got, but even I'm saying we should try to talk this out, we don't want to endanger the plan.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Jon: Robert! Focus for a moment. We can gather our forces and deny the king's demand for your heads. Take no offensive action, but put up a united front against Aerys. That will force Rhaegar's hand. He'll have to come out of hiding to call the council, or the seven kingdoms will be plunged into war. Then we can demand Lyanna back for our cooperation.

Robert: BARATHEON SMASH!

Jon: Robert, this is the best way to Lyanna back. What's going to happen if we start the war now? She'll be stuck with that ass Rhaegar for months before we can get this sorted out.

(exit Robert, pursuing a dragon. Alarums and excursions.)

Ned: It's no good Jon, he's pulled a Leroy Jenkins on us. We better get this show on the road.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I'll tell you what. If GRRM writes it exactly like that, then I'll accept it.

[mambru]

Agreed, though if Ned was out of the loop, Jon Arryn might well have filled him in when he became Lord Stark. It's really the way Ned seems to remember Arthur with sadness, and the sad smile on Arthur's lips in Ned's dream appears to suggest it was reciprocated, that makes me suspect there was something more between Ned and Arthur than just the noble Kingsguard thing. Of course that could be related to Ashara or Lyanna rather than any shared conspiracies.

Yes, I do believe she took the offer. But IMO, if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar's overtures around the time of the tourney, she did it at a time when Elia had recovered from the rigors of Rhaenys' birth and was about to embark on her pregnancy of Aegon. So if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar as a romantic possibility at the tourney, she IS accepting him as a potential romantic partner despite the fact that (at the time) Elia was still a reproductively functional woman with no justificion either of infertility or improper behavior for setting her aside.

So if Lyanna starts contemplating any possibility of marriage due to incipient romance with Rhaegar at the tourney, it would necessarily mean that she was condoning the idea of Rhaegar keeping to both her bed AND Elia's (as well as the idea of being among the Most Ladylike and Least Free ladies of the kingdom). And IMO, that just doesn't accord with what we know of Lyanna's character.

OTOH - she might be very attracted to being the brave prince's outlaw lover, steadfastly risking everything to love him while he courageously works to overthrow his mad father - adoring her and understanding her enough to return her love and leave her her freedom like a true Northern warrior woman, without trying to force her into a yoke of married ladyhood she feels unsuited for. That's a song that might attract her a lot, and I think it would be more in character for her.

I do think that they probably started corresponding secretly right after the tourney. I think it would be beyond belief if she hadn't heard from him for a year, and suddenly just after all the bells have finished tolling the glad news of the birth of the heir to his proud parents Rhaegar and Elia, Rhaegar pops out from behind a tree and says, "Hi! Remember, I gave your a wreath? Wanna elope because I love you and we need to conceive a Savior together?" and Lyanna's all like, "Yeah, let's go..." Somehow I just can't believe that - no matter how poetically Rhaegar words it.

[mambru]

Agreed, though if Ned was out of the loop, Jon Arryn might well have filled him in when he became Lord Stark. It's really the way Ned seems to remember Arthur with sadness, and the sad smile on Arthur's lips in Ned's dream appears to suggest it was reciprocated, that makes me suspect there was something more between Ned and Arthur than just the noble Kingsguard thing. Of course that could be related to Ashara or Lyanna rather than any shared conspiracies.

I think that if Rhaegar was really planning an overthrow (and using Dayne as a possible incorruptible courier and messenger between him and the other lords) such a plan was only in the preliminary stages, with the culmination intended to occur at Harrenhal, where the lords could meet face to face with Rhaegar and each side exact whatever promises and vows were necessary. Apparently Varys foiled the plan by warning Aerys and having him attend (probably with Varys). Ned surely didn't know about it at the time - he and Robert seemed mainly preoccupied with the celebration, and Jon Arryn wouldn't have shared the news with two hot-blooded, loose lipped boys. But there's no reason Jon wouldn't have told Ned about it after the war started (not so much Robert, who wouldn't have wanted to hear anything positive about Rhaegar or his KG).

Possibly Brandon wasn't informed for similar reasons, hence his willingness to believe the worst of Rhaegar when Lyanna was apparently abducted.

[sj4iy]

...still catching up, had puppy kindergarten graduation tonight XD At least this thread isn't moving as fast as last night.

[BearQueen87]

...still catching up, had puppy kindergarten graduation tonight XD At least this thread isn't moving as fast as last night.

Puppy graduation!!!! That's so exciting!!!! (i like puppies)

[addicted to snow]

...still catching up, had puppy kindergarten graduation tonight XD At least this thread isn't moving as fast as last night.

Puppy Graduation… Why does that not surprise me...

[BearQueen87]

Puppy Graduation… Why does that not surprise me...

Do you have some sort of aversion to puppies or puppy graduation?

[RumHam]

Then your response must be nonsense?

Because I don't understand your reply my post must be nonsense?

You are comparing Jaime and Arthur, and we have established that the difference between them is not skill, but honor. Then you are suggesting that ordinary honor would suffice for what Ned said, but that is not what Ned says. Ned says that the Kingsguard's honor and skill was a shining example to the world, and that Arthur was the greatest among that group. Arthur had no ordinary level of honor.

I was explicitly arguing against comparing Jaime and Arthur, or rather arguing that comparing Ned's opinions of the two men is not all that helpful. Again I regret bringing up skill, but I do maintain that Arthurs skill was a factor in Ned's assessment of him to Bran.

This is a clumsy metaphor, but it's late and I'm less than sober. Imagine you like a baseball team that was lucky enough two have two amazing players of more or less equal skill. Then one of those two players trades to your arch rival team. If your son asked you "Who is/was the greatest baseball player of them all?" Are you gonna say the guy you feel betrayed his team and switched to your enemies or the guy who stuck with your team till the end? (agian, clumsy metaphor. Jamie actually switched to Ned's team, but ended up allied with the Lannisters who Ned ended up disliking because of the Aegon/Rhaenys thing.) But the main point is that Ned's feelings of distaste for Jaime are on an order of magnitude greater than any ill will he would bear a kingsguard for switching sides during the rebellion, or for protecting his sister/nephew over the guy who would have been king had they not just staged a successful rebellion.

But skill aside, the real question is "did Arthur do anything that would offend Ned's sense of honor?" I would say for sure not on the level of Jaime. And I'm pretty confident that Ned would not have judged him poorly for sticking to Rhaegar's orders to the bitter end. Again I'm not saying your explanation for Arthur and the other Kingsguard's behavior isn't plausible, I just don't think it's the only explanation. I think that while it may be supporting a valid conclusion, It's based on faulty logic. Because even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Hightower et al thought that he should be king that's not their call. ​There other other explanations for the kingsguard presence at the tower beyond "Jon was their king and they died protecting him from his uncle."

[sj4iy]

Puppy Graduation Why does that not surprise me...

Uh, I don't know. Why doesn't it?

[BearQueen87]

Because even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Hightower et al thought that he should be king that's not their call. ​There other other explanations for the kingsguard presence at the tower beyond "Jon was their king and they died protecting him from his uncle."

If R and L were married and all of Aerys' heirs dead (Rhaegar and Aegon) then there is no "call" to be made at all. It's Jon by the laws of succession.

[stateofdissipation]

Because I don't understand your reply my post must be nonsense?

I was explicitly arguing against comparing Jaime and Arthur, or rather arguing that comparing Ned's opinions of the two men is not all that helpful. Again I regret bringing up skill, but I do maintain that Arthurs skill was a factor in Ned's assessment of him to Bran.

This is a clumsy metaphor, but it's late and I'm less than sober. Imagine you like a baseball team that was lucky enough two have two amazing players of more or less equal skill. Then one of those two players trades to your arch rival team. If your son asked you "Who is/was the greatest baseball player of them all?" Are you gonna say the guy you feel betrayed his team and switched to your enemies or the guy who stuck with your team till the end? (agian, clumsy metaphor. Jamie actually switched to Ned's team, but ended up allied with the Lannisters who Ned ended up disliking because of the Aegon/Rhaenys thing.) But the main point is that Ned's feelings of distaste for Jaime are on an order of magnitude greater than any ill will he would bear a kingsguard for switching sides during the rebellion, or for protecting his sister/nephew over the guy who would have been king had they not just staged a successful rebellion.

But skill aside, the real question is "did Arthur do anything that would offend Ned's sense of honor?" I would say for sure not on the level of Jaime. And I'm pretty confident that Ned would not have judged him poorly for sticking to Rhaegar's orders to the bitter end. Again I'm not saying your explanation for Arthur and the other Kingsguard's behavior isn't plausible, I just don't think it's the only explanation. I think that while it may be supporting a valid conclusion, It's based on faulty logic. Because even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Hightower et al thought that he should be king that's not their call. ​There other other explanations for the kingsguard presence at the tower beyond "Jon was their king and they died protecting him from his uncle."

Again I regret bringing up skill, but I do maintain that Arthurs skill was a factor in Ned's assessment of him to Bran.

You should not have to regret bringing up skill. Arthur's skill is all that is ever mentioned.

Catelyn's chapter has Arthur as the "deadliest of Aerys's kingsguard."

Ned's chapter has Arthur as "marvelous" at a tournament

Ned's story Bran has "would have killed me."

Jamie's reference has "could have slain all five of you with his left hand."

One description of Arthur---"the finest knight I ever saw" does not specifically mention honor or loyalty...the story does comment on his skill.

There is something to regret--the nonsensical addition of "honor and loyalty" into Ned's description of Arthur.

I do maintain that Arthurs skill was a factor in Ned's assessment of him to Bran.

It is safe to maintain it as the only stated factor in any given assessment of Dayne.

Again I'm not saying your explanation for Arthur and the other Kingsguard's behavior isn't plausible,

The explanation based on the inventions is plausible. Its plausibility does not validate the inventions.

[Lord Varys]

The laws of succession are not really clear. There could be made an argument that Prince Viserys came before the son of Rhaegar's second wife, especially since King Aerys II did not arrange that marriage, nor recognized Lyanna's son as his heir.

If we imagine, that only Rhaegar had died during the war, and Aerys had somehow won in the end, I'm pretty sure he'd have disinherited all of Rhaegar's children in favor of Viserys, because the Dornishmen had, in his mind, betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident.

And if we imagine that Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar had died, but Robert had been killed, too, there would be a very good chance that Rhaegar's son by Lyanna would have also been passed over in favor of Prince Viserys - especially if Queen Rhaella would have also been very unhappy with Rhaegar's second marriage.

As to Ser Arthur Dayne:

I really don't think we know enough to deduce without a doubt why Ned held the Sword of the Morning is such high esteem after his death. Ned may have learned more about him and the whole situation after his death at the tower.

I'm pretty sure that Ned, too, was believing the 'rape and abduction' story until he had spoken to the dying Lyanna. If this had not been the case, Ned most certainly would not have supported Robert's campaign, nor would he have been able (or willing) to keep his true thoughts to himself during the war.

Later on he seems to have a different picture of Rhaegar, but that could have changed only after he reached the Tower of Joy.

If I get the talk between Bran and Ned right, Bran is asking about true knight, not true KG, and Ned paints Aerys' KG as shining examples for knighthood, not for KGs. In that sense, Ser Arthur would have been a great knight not just because he obeyed his king, but because he obeyed all his vows.

[sj4iy]

If R and L were married and all of Aerys' heirs dead (Rhaegar and Aegon) then there is no "call" to be made at all. It's Jon by the laws of succession.

This. If the KG knew that Rhaegar was married to Lyanna and that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, then Jon is the king. No call to be made.

[sj4iy]

The laws of succession are not really clear. There could be made an argument that Prince Viserys came before the son of Rhaegar's second wife, especially since King Aerys II did not arrange that marriage, nor recognized Lyanna's son as his heir.

No. It's incredibly clear. The legitimate son of the first son comes before a second son. Crystal clear, no matter who the mother is.

[MtnLion]

Yes, I do believe she took the offer. But IMO, if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar's overtures around the time of the tourney, she did it at a time when Elia had recovered from the rigors of Rhaenys' birth and was about to embark on her pregnancy of Aegon. So if Lyanna started accepting Rhaegar as a romantic possibility at the tourney, she IS accepting him as a potential romantic partner despite the fact that (at the time) Elia was still a reproductively functional woman with no justificion either of infertility or improper behavior for setting her aside.

Big fucking, if. If my aunt had had balls she would have been my uncle. We know that after the tourney Ned and Lyanna are at Winterfell, and that winter has returned. It is after the winter that Catelyn's and Brandon's wedding date is set, and Littlefinger challenges. That would be about the time that Ned returns to the Eyrie, too. Lyanna and Rhaegar are many miles apart, and Lyanna is with her family, and IF Rhaegar and Lyanna had anything to do with each other AFTER the tourney her family would know about it.

[stateofdissipation]

Anyhow, Back on topic.

Rhaegar's tournament got Aerys out of the Red Keep which he had not left since Duskendale.

While Aerys hid in his keep, lords of the riverlands, the stormlands, the vale, and north were busy binding themselves together. Had Aerys not left the keep, his support would have evaporated even further.

Had Lyanna married Robert the forces hostile to the Targaryens would have been united in marriage. A Targaryen action against the north after the marriages would have brought a reaction from the stormlands, the riverlands, and the vale as well.

If Rhaegar was protecting his father rather than betraying him, the same actions would have been necessary: 1. get Aerys out for the Lords to see. 2. stop the marriage pacts binding 4 great houses together.

Varys being Rhaegar's creature (supported by the rescue of Aegon) would mean that Vary's whispers to Aerys were what Rhaegar thought were necessary to get Aerys out in public. Varys reporting the actual plots would have likely gotten a response similar to Duskendale.

Jon Arryn inventing a plausible cause to complete alliance Rhaegar had disrupted keeps the Rebels in the Rebel camp and the Targaryens in the Royalist camp.

[MtnLion]

Because I don't understand your reply my post must be nonsense?

I was explicitly arguing against comparing Jaime and Arthur, or rather arguing that comparing Ned's opinions of the two men is not all that helpful. Again I regret bringing up skill, but I do maintain that Arthurs skill was a factor in Ned's assessment of him to Bran.

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked if the kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered,"but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more.

It is not just Arthur, it is the seven (and Jaime is not counted in Ned's assessment) Kingsguard were a shining example to the world, but Arthur was the best of the seven. Ned tells Robert how he feels about Jaime and the value of his oaths.

On honor:

"Your Grace, May I speak frankly?"

"I seem unable to stop you, " Robert grumbled. They rode through the tall grasses.

"Can you trust Jaime Lannister?"

"He is my wife's twin, a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, his life and fortune and honor all bound to mine."

"As they were bound to Aerys Targaryen's," Ned pointed out.

"Why should I mistrust him? He has done everything I ever asked of him. His sword helped win the throne I sit on."

His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

"Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!" Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside and ancient barrow. "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me."

"We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard," Ned said. The time had come for Robert to hear the whole truth, he decided then and there. "Do you remember the Trident, Your Grace?"

Let me draw your attention to Jaime tainting the throne.

He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own.

Then he broke that vow by opening the king's throat.

[BearQueen87]

The laws of succession are not really clear. There could be made an argument that Prince Viserys came before the son of Rhaegar's second wife, especially since King Aerys II did not arrange that marriage, nor recognized Lyanna's son as his heir.

If we imagine, that only Rhaegar had died during the war, and Aerys had somehow won in the end, I'm pretty sure he'd have disinherited all of Rhaegar's children in favor of Viserys, because the Dornishmen had, in his mind, betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident.

And if we imagine that Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar had died, but Robert had been killed, too, there would be a very good chance that Rhaegar's son by Lyanna would have also been passed over in favor of Prince Viserys - especially if Queen Rhaella would have also been very unhappy with Rhaegar's second marriage.

While all theoretically possible, I don't think it's likely because someone would have known...like Jaime who never left Aerys' side during the final days of the war. Think about this: Jaime knew all the goings on of the wildfire plot, but not that Aerys had disinherited his son's heirs?

No. It's incredibly clear. The legitimate son of the first son comes before a second son. Crystal clear, no matter who the mother is.

Yeah. In the cases we've seen in universe thus far, the succession laws seem fairly clear. (I'm not going into the ancient Targaryen past cause there's a lot there...)

[sj4iy]

While all theoretically possible, I don't think it's likely because someone would have known...like Jaime who never left Aerys' side during the final days of the war. Think about this: Jaime knew all the goings on of the wildfire plot, but not that Aerys had disinherited his son's heirs?

Yeah. In the cases we've seen in universe thus far, the succession laws seem fairly clear. (I'm not going into the ancient Targaryen past cause there's a lot there...)

Well, I didn't say they always END UP as king, I just said that the laws of succession are crystal clear in that case.