RainGhost Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 1. Jon is not a better commander than Robb was. Im a prettyy big Jon fanboy myself, but how does anyone get that idea? He is a good fighter with much experience for his age, yes, and he is a good leader, yes, but that doesnt make him a great battle commander. He fought in two battles, the battle of Caste Black and the Battle of the Wall. None of them have big similarities with a common siege or a battle out in the open. As Jon was raised along with Robb, we can assume he was teached tactics and stuff, and he might actually be a good commander, but we just do not know and as Robb won all of his battles and managed to strategically move out Tywin Lannister several times, we have no reason to believe Jon is a better commander than he was, because Robb was just damn good. 2. Although those numbers are interesting, I do not think they matter that much. I just do not see the North march south again. Why the hell should they? They cannot take over the South. People here are talking about 200.000 men, but that is playinly nonsensical. Reread the passages about Mances host. 100.000 people, yes, but just some southand warriors and very few horses. And the north will not pull 50.000 man together as if there was nothing more important in the world than vengeance. They are no mindless fools. They have a host of Freys up there to tear apart and send some heads, or what i would find savage but awesome, direwolf's poop back to the Twins to have their revenge. But after that: Winter has come. If they listen to Jon talking about the Others or not, they will not start a big campaign at the beginning of the winter. And why should they? If they want their independence, they can just take it. No need to even bother what anyone in the south thinks about that. The South can not even dream of invading the north. Aegon only succeeded because he had dragons. Dany has dragons too, fair enough, but that is a whole other story. :agree: Very well said. I agree with absolutely everything you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Actually, the Lannister don't even have 10,000 men right now. The rest, dead, or back home to their farms. You've seriously over estimated the amount of casualties the Lannisters have suffered. The Lannisters can always drag their men back out to fight and they haven't suffered ten thousand plus deaths. Usually in war, only a small percentage dies in war. They didn't suffer anywhere near a 50% casualty rate. The same goes for the North and the Riverlands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 You've seriously over estimated the amount of casualties the Lannisters have suffered. The Lannisters can always drag their men back out to fight and they haven't suffered ten thousand plus deaths. Usually in war, only a small percentage dies in war. They didn't suffer anywhere near a 50% casualty rate. The same goes for the North and the Riverlands Still, look at their armies in AFFC. Where are they? Not even 5,000 men left. The rest, as I said, back to farming. And actually, many of the experts on this forum rate the deads of the Lannisters around the 20-25,000 mark, nearly a 40-50% of their armies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Still, look at their armies in AFFC. Where are they? Not even 5,000 men left. The rest, as I said, back to farming. And actually, many of the experts on this forum rate the deads of the Lannisters around the 20-25,000 mark, nearly a 40-50% of their armies Do you have a quote? They're over shooting. 10,000 max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Do you have a quote? They're over shooting. 10,00 max. Yep. It's an actual misconception around here. Oxcross alone had 8-9,000 deads for the Lannisters: The only given numbers are those of the Oxcroos battle, the Battle of the Camps, the Battle of the Green Fork, the Battle of the Whispering Wood and the Sack of Harrenhal -Oxcross: 10,000 Lannister men. 8,000-9,000 dead -Battle of the Camps: 8,000 Lannister men dead -Battle of the Green Fork: 650 Lannister dead -Battle of the Whispering Wood: Around the 1500 mark -Sack of Harrenhal: 100 Lannisters dead. Those are the numbers given or strongly suggested. There are many battles in which we actually don't know the losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxian Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 The Northerners aren't going to be marching south again to deal out vengeance with winter near and the Others threat looming. Plus almost the entire army that went south was slaughtered, excluding Roose's men, so that isn't going to be seen has encouraging to the others. They can wait out the Winter and until they get their full strength back. After all, the North remembers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 as I said, the do not need to march south to take vengeance. Kill the Freys at WF, give them to the dogs and send the bones and poop back to the Twins so they can bury their dead. That would be a savage and drastic way of vengeance, and they would not need to start another big war because of it. And if they do not want to be ruled by Southrons any more, they can just declare independence and noone will be able to bother them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Yep. It's an actual misconception around here. Oxcross alone had 8-9,000 deads for the Lannisters: The only given numbers are those of the Oxcroos battle, the Battle of the Camps, the Battle of the Green Fork, the Battle of the Whispering Wood and the Sack of Harrenhal -Oxcross: 10,000 Lannister men. 8,000-9,000 dead -Battle of the Camps: 8,000 Lannister men dead -Battle of the Green Fork: 650 Lannister dead -Battle of the Whispering Wood: Around the 1500 mark -Sack of Harrenhal: 100 Lannisters dead. Those are the numbers given or strongly suggested. There are many battles in which we actually don't know the losses. Where are the quotes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Where are the quotes? Battle of Oxcross: ACOK, chapters 32, 35, 39 and 45 Battle of the Camps: AGOT, chapter 69. Battle of the Green Fork: AGOT, chapter 62 Battle of the Whispering Woods: Chapter 63 and 69 Sack of Harrenhal: ACOK, chapter 47 As you will see, Jaime Lannister almost causes the fall of his House. He alone lost 10,000 men. And Stefford, or Stafford, I don't remember his name...well, he's dumb as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Battle of Oxcross: ACOK, chapters 32, 35, 39 and 45 Battle of the Camps: AGOT, chapter 69. Battle of the Green Fork: AGOT, chapter 62 Battle of the Whispering Woods: Chapter 63 and 69 Sack of Harrenhal: ACOK, chapter 47 As you will see, Jaime Lannister almost causes the fall of his House. He alone lost 10,000 men. And Stefford, or Stafford, I don't remember his name...well, he's dumb as fuck. Those aren't quotes. I'm asking for the given numbers. Those chapters are long and I really don't remember being told that half if the Western Army is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Those aren't quotes. I'm asking for the given numbers. Those chapters are long and I really don't remember being told that half if the Western Army is dead. I have the Spanish version of the books. I can give you translated quotes, if you want, but actually, those chapters are really small. The 63 in AGOT is 6 pages long. Read those chapters, look the wiki, look up some of the threads about losses and everything. The quotes are there in those threads. But actually, half of the Western Army is dead. I mean...why do you think the Lannisters were losing the war? It was really bad lucky for the Lannisters, though. I mean, Oxcross never would have happened if Robb hadn't had a magic wolf at his side. And te Battle of the Camps was extremly bad lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Still, look at their armies in AFFC. Where are they? Not even 5,000 men left. The rest, as I said, back to farming.What is wrong with sending the men back home? Robb, Stannis and Renly were defeated. Its quite pointless keeping the army in the field when winter approaches and there is still time to bring in one last harvest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 What is wrong with sending the men back home? Robb, Stannis and Renly were defeated. Its quite pointless keeping the army in the field when winter approaches and there is still time to bring in one last harvest. Nothing wrong, of course. But don't expect those men to fight willingly after two years of war, and a Winter coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Nothing wrong, of course. But don't expect those men to fight willingly after two years of war, and a Winter coming. How are they any less likely then men who have been constantly fighting with no time off. Are you really suggesting that the Westermen will be less likely to fight because the Lannisters sent them home to see their families and look after their own lands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 How are they any less likely then men who have been constantly fighting with no time off. Are you really suggesting that the Westermen will be less likely to fight because the Lannisters sent them home to see their families and look after their own lands? Because House Lannister has lost Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel is not longer avaliable, Jaime is missing. Cersei is probably no longer the Head of the House. I mean, you know who's the actual heir to the House Lannister? Martyn Lannister, third son of Kevan, some random boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Yep. It's an actual misconception around here. Oxcross alone had 8-9,000 deads for the Lannisters: The only given numbers are those of the Oxcroos battle, the Battle of the Camps, the Battle of the Green Fork, the Battle of the Whispering Wood and the Sack of Harrenhal -Oxcross: 10,000 Lannister men. 8,000-9,000 dead -Battle of the Camps: 8,000 Lannister men dead -Battle of the Green Fork: 650 Lannister dead -Battle of the Whispering Wood: Around the 1500 mark -Sack of Harrenhal: 100 Lannisters dead. Those are the numbers given or strongly suggested. There are many battles in which we actually don't know the losses. Actual quotes about Oxcross: Maester Luwin sent Alebelly away and closed his door. My lords, he said gravely, we have had a message from His Grace, with both good news and ill. He has won a great victory in the west, shattering a Lannister army at a place named Oxcross, and has taken several castles as well. He writes us from Ashemark, formerly the stronghold of House Marbrand. - BRAN "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain." - SANSA Doubtless you'll hear it sung tonight, my lady. 'Wolf in the Night' this Rymund calls it." He went on to tell how the remnants of Ser Stafford's host had fallen back on Lannisport. Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock -CAT I cant find any quotes saying that 8,000-9,000 were dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Actual quotes about Oxcross: I cant find any quotes saying that 8,000-9,000 were dead. Considering the 10,000 army, the "thousands of men buthchered", etc, it's pretty safe to say, at least, 8,000 men. Considering, of course, these men were not real soldiers, and Stafford, a dumb commander. Also, I got the number from the Wiki, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Because House Lannister has lost Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel is not longer avaliable, Jaime is missing. Cersei is probably no longer the Head of the House.There was a time when the Lord Stark and his heir had been killed and all who remained was a teenage Stark, who had spent much of his life in the Vale. Yet the North still answered the call. House Lannister by comparison has far more family members alive. Daven is the Warden of the West while Damion Lannister is the current Castellan of Casterly Rock. As well as other Lannisters who have not yet been introduced, as we've spent no time in the West. I mean, you know who's the actual heir to the House Lannister? Martyn Lannister, third son of Kevan, some random boy. Tommen is the heir to House Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Considering the 10,000 army, the "thousands of men buthchered", etc, it's pretty safe to say, at least, 8,000 men. Considering, of course, these men were not real soldiers, and Stafford, a dumb commander. Also, I got the number from the Wiki, as well. No, it's not. Thousands could mean anything from 2-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindLikeWarp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So all the North is just going to die when the Others invade? They will have no choice but to go south. Mass exodus south has to happen or else the Others aren't even a threat if they can't advance south, pushing men that way as they advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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